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#961 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,706
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#962 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,913
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#963 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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#964 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,324
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#965 |
should be banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 17,429
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They don't need to act on the result if the referendum is advisory. That makes it complicated as some people struggle to understand that and think promises that the referendum would be acted on have weight whereas promises written in the side of a bus or in the manifesto don't.
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#966 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,930
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#967 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,930
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#968 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 54,999
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If Putin's goal...and I think it was....was to throw the two oldest Western Democracies into chaos, mission accomplished.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#969 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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There was a booklet posted to every household in the country by the government that promised, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." Do you think it's acceptable for the government to go back on a promise like that?
![]() Note that it also promised that this was a 'Once in a generation decision.' Three and a half years isn't a generation - well it's more than a generation for rats, but much less than a generation for humans. |
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#970 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 783
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The government goes back on promises all the time and I'd damn well want them too when they turn out to be the ****-show we've got now.
I draw your attention to the line: "The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the referendum to be implemented" Written on the damn bill itself, not some mailshot |
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#971 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,541
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#972 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,778
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Wow you really have descended into pure desperation haven't you? What's the harm in having the people vote on the terms actually on offer rather than the fairy stories Johnson and co, trotted out to con people into voting leave? Oh that's right I forgot you brexiteers aren't really all that keen on democracy.
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So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
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#973 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#974 |
Girl
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,774
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The best argument for not Corbyn in my view is that the caretaker PM (whose only tasks should be to get a brextension and call an election after that) should be essentially a technocrat who "doesn't want to be PM". Rather than the guy who wants to be the next PM. (I think it was you who made this argument)
But the other thing is that anyone is better than nobody, even Corbyn. |
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#975 |
should be banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 17,429
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Do you want me to post links to where the official leave campaign still promises that we would have free trade with the EU? You insist that we need to break that promise. You refuse to back a customs union which delivers it and back a hard border which doesn't.
The question is not how many promises will be btoken, the question is what is best for the UK. Vote leave got it right. We do need to be in the same customs area and single market as the EU to avoid catastrophic damage to the UK. |
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#976 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 54,999
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#977 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 54,999
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#978 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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Because they don't normally spend taxpayers' money printing a booklet full of promises like, 'once in a generation', and, 'the government will implement what you decide', and then posting that booklet to every single household in the country. This was exceptional.
As to referendums not being binding, why the hell do they want another one? Will the next one be binding because they really really promise, with sugar on? |
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#979 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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#980 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
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#981 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 54,999
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Like politicians using inflated rhetoric is a rare occurance….
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#982 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,324
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#983 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 32,800
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Слава Україні! **** Putin! |
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#984 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
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#985 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
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#986 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 28,950
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deleted
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#987 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 28,950
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#988 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 28,950
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#989 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 35,786
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#990 |
should be banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 17,429
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Governments regularly break their own promises not mention promises of previous governments.
That said we don't know what people decided. You have constantly opposed deals which would have us leaving the EU. Clearly the referendum question was not clear if leavers like yourself would rather remain than leave on a deal. |
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#991 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
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Whether or not a referendum is binding is a legal issue. The first referendum was not legally binding. If it had been, then it would have been declared void due to the corruption in the Leave campaign: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...result-stands/
A second referendum could be made legally binding. Not only would that settle the matter once and for all, but it would prevent corruption like was seen in the first referendum. |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#992 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,913
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#993 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,507
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I read an interesting Article (which I cant find now :/ ) which made the point that referendums for things as complicated as Brexit is not a good idea because decisions need to be informed. It suggested the best people to decide on Brexit and the EU would be the people who legislate laws and understand the economics.
My stock answer for Brexit discussion is "can you answer the question to 'will the UK be better off outside of the EU - especially economically' - provide your working and any facts and figures you have. For me the "free movement of workers" - i.e. EU migration into the UK was always a red herring and distraction and probably the single issue that swung the vote - idiots. The real question should be if UK residents will be better or worse off generally after leaving - and that goes for all people living there, migrants or not. What I wanted to see in a referendum debate was a good and fair discussion on the probable economic outcome of leaving. I don't think this debate really happened, let alone presented with facts and truthful analysis. So, I was left unconvinced and voted to remain. Generally though, why would you want to be outside a trading club with your closest trading partners - it makes no sense to me why that would be better - but I was always prepared to be convinced otherwise. Free movement of people I feel is an issue that should have been tackled within the EU itself. One of Sam Harris 's podcasts interestingly talked about the Elephant Curve which suggests that over the last few decades the middle classes across the world have seen the least improvement in their standard of living, even compared with many populations in developing countries. The suggestion is that this very important and somewhat educated voting block is very dissatisfied and so you see the likes of Trump and Bojo swooping in on the back of Jingoism, fear and dissatisfaction of the status quo and the lazy blaming of immigrants for all their troubles and woes. The irony is that the likes of Trump and Bojo will probably just make things worse long term for this group of people (see Trumps tax break for the rich) |
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Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here |
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#994 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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#995 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
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Economy was on the top of the reasons to vote Brexit. There was that big bus advocating savings of 350 million pounds a week. I think you'd be fine just admitting that was all a lie and there would be no economic upside to Brexit and then describe how all other upsides make up for the downside.
You're free to start writing any time now. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#996 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
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I think that a large number of people who did vote Leave believed themselves to have an understanding of the economics - the UK would have an extra £350m a week, which would be spent on the NHS.
Quote:
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/...g_newdeal.html
Quote:
Part of the problem of this debate, of course, is that it's framed in the wrong way. Right from the beginning it's been framed as "Leave" vs. "Remain". The problem with that, of course, is that "Leave" isn't a single position. It's a large range of positions. That's why "Leave" can have a majority but not get anything done - because what some Brexiteers were pushing and wishing for is emphatically not the same thing that other Brexiteers were pushing and wishing for. And now, thanks to May, we're in the situation where what is seen as the Leave position is actually the most extreme version of that, and not what people actually voted for. And that's before Johnson took it further and put us where we are now where "Brexit" seems to mean "no deal whatsoever". It's a far cry from what was actually promised. |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#997 |
should be banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 17,429
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Not necessarily more important than anything else but you need to apply some weighting. The leave campaign centred on two things, economics (£350m a week and better economic trade deals than the EU negotiated) and racism (immigrants, immigrants, immigrants)
I appreciate most brexit supporter think keeping the wogs (and krauts) out is more important but I thought you were better than that. |
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#998 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,913
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#999 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 34,199
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More good news if there's a no-deal Brexit, travel insurance costs are going to rise because most EU countries will no longer accept EHIC cards.
Quote:
No possible downside, only a considerable upside ![]() |
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#1000 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,706
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No for once I think that's true, I think both leavers and remainers agree that being in a trading group and hence having to follow the rules but not having a say in them is worse than being in the same group but having a say a say and a veto (although it's slightly confused by claims that we didn't have a say and were having laws imposed on us). The difference in opinion is over whether it's worse than crashing out.
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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