Covid-19 and Politics - Page 5

Darat · 19th March 2020, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills.

..snip...

Even if some of them can - it is going to be very small numbers plus of course the staff at such companies are subject to lock downs, self isolation and so on.

Captain_Swoop · 19th March 2020, 03:12 AM

In WW2 plans that had been put in place before the war were brought in to operation, there was an entire government department to coordinate and run it.

Captain_Swoop · 19th March 2020, 03:13 AM

Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'.
China should be punished.

The Don · 19th March 2020, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

In WW2 plans that had been put in place before the war were brought in to operation, there was an entire government department to coordinate and run it.

That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.

We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach.

The Don · 19th March 2020, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'.
China should be punished.

Here's the article where he says it.

https://www.newsweek.com/nigel-farag...ethink-1493085

Quote:

I believe that attention should now turn to China. When President Trump has talked about the "Chinese virus" (others have called it the "Wuhan Virus") he has been met with waves of criticism and accusations of racism. In the House of Commons, the shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry even said of Trump: "Now he's calling it the foreign virus, blaming it on Europe for its spread and today blaming China." I hate to break it to Ms Thornberry, but Trump is right. And it is time we all challenged China.

He's a **** !

lomiller · 19th March 2020, 09:05 AM

Conservatives are much more responsive to fear than Liberals so the current panic is likely to make for a very active and engaged base.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...ical-attitudes

It’s possible some will turn on their party, but history suggests otherwise. If conservatives are more active and engaged and remain loyal to their party it will help conservatives in the pools. Weirdly, this suggests that the general incompetence of conservatives fuels fear and uncertainty, which will in turn help them in elections.

Captain_Swoop · 19th March 2020, 09:55 AM

HANNITY, March 9: "This scaring the living hell out of people -- I see it, again, as like, let's bludgeon Trump with this new hoax."

HANNITY, March 18: "By the way, this program has always taken the coronavirus seriously. We've never called the virus a hoax."

Mojo · 19th March 2020, 10:59 AM

Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.

Trebuchet · 19th March 2020, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills.

Of course this would still require the production and certification of a suitable design or designs for these people to build and the creation of a supply chain so that suitable components are available for the manufacture - and ongoing maintenance of ventilators.

Of course the government isn't working on this, instead they're expressing a vague hope that British Industry will magically, schmagically solve the problems on their behalf. This wasn't what happened during the war.

Once again, it's pointless grandstanding and wishful, magical, thinking in the face of a national crisis - absolutely the opposite of how Britain responded to WWII.

It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.

ponderingturtle · 19th March 2020, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.

Yes and no, I imagine you could run one with an arduino. The problem is who is responsible when this cut rate hack jobs kill someone instead of saving their life?

alfaniner · 19th March 2020, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.

Something I've never seen addressed -- in an emergency (and if you have one), wouldn't a CPAP at least help as a respirator/ventilator? I think there are plenty of those around, and especially a lot of older people have them.

P.J. Denyer · 19th March 2020, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.

"They practice before hand which spoils the fun"

Myriad · 19th March 2020, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Something I've never seen addressed -- in an emergency (and if you have one), wouldn't a CPAP at least help as a respirator/ventilator? I think there are plenty of those around, and especially a lot of older people have them.

Possibly. I recall seeing a series of tweets from a doctor in an overrun hospital in northern Italy, describing how they used all available standard ventilators, then all available NIVs (non-invasive ventilators), then all available CPAP machines, then all the rigs of some even more basic type. I wasn't sure whether or not they had some way of feeding O2 into the CPAP machines.

Myriad · 19th March 2020, 07:49 PM

A weird possible medium-term repercussion: if the Chinese policy of rigorous internal containment succeeds, and the European and American policies of flattening the curve while ultimately exposing most of the population also succeed, then most Chinese nationals will be unable to safely travel to most parts of the world (or return without a lengthy quarantine), while immune foreigners will (if permitted) be able to travel to China. Until a vaccine or effective treatment is available.

a_unique_person · 19th March 2020, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.

We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach.

All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.

The Don · 19th March 2020, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.

It's the same thing President Trump does, says whatever he thinks will appeal to the audience without any basis in fact. It's what passes for leadership these days

The Don · 19th March 2020, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.

Oh no, no, no, no, no.....

The Don · 20th March 2020, 02:16 AM

At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ?

If we have a major long-term economic downturn then the resulting excess deaths over several years could easily exceed those predicted from Coronavirus (IIRC up to 1% of population is the prediction for the UK if no action is taken) not to mention the economic and social upheaval of having more than 20% of the population unemployed for months or years, the collapse of entire industries and long-term shortages of crucial items.

I suppose that government need to consider these political considerations.

steenkh · 20th March 2020, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ?

In our modern society we value lives more than anything else - at least when they are of our own nationality, and presumably also having the same skin colour, and language. At least, that is the theory. But you are right, in real politics, a life does have a value, and the cost of saving a life can be more than what society is willing to pay.

I find it interesting that China - where lives are usually regarded as worth less than in the West - have been doing so much to contain the virus. The low value of life in China was probably seen most clearly in the initial reaction of suppression.

Horatius · 20th March 2020, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ?

I'd say it comes down to food. When so many people are on lockdown that it threatens food production and distribution enough that starvation is likely, then it will change. No point in saving a million people from the virus if two million starve to death.

Now, how likely this is to impact the food system that much is a good question, but I for one have bought bananas for the first time in a while, largely because I figured shipping fresh bananas to Canada was a somewhat lower priority when shipping in general is at risk. I have no doubt they will become rarer and more expensive in the near future.

Darat · 20th March 2020, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all.

We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach.

It's akin to the veneration of Churchill. Our view of WW2 is really based on the propaganda we used during the war. What actually happened in WW2 in the country was very different. People looked out for themselves, people cheated, we had a whole black market that everybody with the means used and so. It was not the good old knees up we now like to believe it was.l

Darat · 20th March 2020, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.

It’s meant to mean something? That’s going to be a new concept for Johnson.

Darat · 20th March 2020, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.

And be a complete bastard, so Johnson at least has one qualification.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2020, 09:09 AM

Kansas official: Pandemic isn’t a problem here because there are few Chinese people

https://amp.kansascity.com/opinion/e...241353836.html

Trebuchet · 20th March 2020, 09:30 AM

I've lots of relatives in the next couple of counties. They probably think the same thing.

ETA: I'm finding it quite hilarious how many Republicans are still parroting Trump's initial denial even after he's moved on.

GlennB · 20th March 2020, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

And be a complete bastard, so Johnson at least has one qualification.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2020, 10:31 AM

Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus
Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

Garrison · 20th March 2020, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus
Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

angrysoba · 20th March 2020, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

All gyms too. For people who live alone and for whom the pub or the gym is an important social hub, it is likely to be quite depressing. In fact, I expect you couldn’t have a prison of solitude confinement and Disney+. It would surely be a violation of human rights.

Similarly, for those who end up trapped with people they don’t like. Abusive families, or unhygienic room mates, etc...

AnonyMoose · 20th March 2020, 11:22 AM

Is anyone else checking out the live webcams around the world?

Seeing various mega cities with their streets mostly empty, it's a wee bit eerie....

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2020, 12:40 PM

We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

Trebuchet · 20th March 2020, 01:54 PM

Georgia state legislator has symptoms, gets tested, goes to the assembly and votes, and announces he's tested positive, in that order. Wotta Maroon!

alfaniner · 20th March 2020, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

I have to wonder about all those people who unashamedly said "Oh, I can't cook!" and depended on going out all the time.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

A lot of stores are reducing hours (I understand why) but for someone who used to always go late, now it forces me to be there at a time when there are many more people in the store.

Darat · 20th March 2020, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus
Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

Support for small businesses i.e. self employed were outlined earlier in the week.

catsmate · 20th March 2020, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'.
China should be punished.

By banning imports of Chinese made pharmaceuticals, medical equipment et cetera?

catsmate · 20th March 2020, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.

Nice to see you're catching up with the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

Not over here. Taped off spaces and enforced separation.

calebprime · 20th March 2020, 03:54 PM

kudos to my college-town co-op. 9-10 am for immuno-suppressed co-op members. curbside orders and pickup. changing all of their internal procedures.

not much panic buying -- except beef, sausage and toilet-paper

a_unique_person · 20th March 2020, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

Oh no, no, no, no, no.....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Planigale · 20th March 2020, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Possibly. I recall seeing a series of tweets from a doctor in an overrun hospital in northern Italy, describing how they used all available standard ventilators, then all available NIVs (non-invasive ventilators), then all available CPAP machines, then all the rigs of some even more basic type. I wasn't sure whether or not they had some way of feeding O2 into the CPAP machines.

Interestingly (or not) it turns out for our local hospital the issue isn't the number of ventilators, but the supply of oxygen. There are more ventilators than the oxygen supply can cope with.

dann · 21st March 2020, 01:41 AM

A Danish MD living and working in the USA (my translation):

Quote:

... the authorities in the country seem to be far behind many other countries, and the health care system is not equipped to handle it if things go really wrong
- In general we are at least two months behind. And we got hopelessly contradictory information from the federal government, he says.
Danish MD in the USA: 'We're at least two months behind' (DR.dk, March 21, 2020)

19th March 2020, 02:59 AM	#161
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,659	Originally Posted by The Don I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills. ..snip... Even if some of them can - it is going to be very small numbers plus of course the staff at such companies are subject to lock downs, self isolation and so on.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

19th March 2020, 09:05 AM	#166
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,342	Conservatives are much more responsive to fear than Liberals so the current panic is likely to make for a very active and engaged base. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...ical-attitudes It’s possible some will turn on their party, but history suggests otherwise. If conservatives are more active and engaged and remain loyal to their party it will help conservatives in the pools. Weirdly, this suggests that the general incompetence of conservatives fuels fear and uncertainty, which will in turn help them in elections.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

19th March 2020, 10:59 AM	#168
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 35,761	Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

19th March 2020, 11:32 AM	#169
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 33,923	Originally Posted by The Don I've been thinking about this a little more and perhaps classic vehicle/plane/boat restorers, boutique audio manufacturers and electrical and electronic repair shop workers might have the right combination of skills. Of course this would still require the production and certification of a suitable design or designs for these people to build and the creation of a supply chain so that suitable components are available for the manufacture - and ongoing maintenance of ventilators. Of course the government isn't working on this, instead they're expressing a vague hope that British Industry will magically, schmagically solve the problems on their behalf. This wasn't what happened during the war. Once again, it's pointless grandstanding and wishful, magical, thinking in the face of a national crisis - absolutely the opposite of how Britain responded to WWII. It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

19th March 2020, 12:04 PM	#170
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,360	Originally Posted by Trebuchet It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage. Yes and no, I imagine you could run one with an arduino. The problem is who is responsible when this cut rate hack jobs kill someone instead of saving their life?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

19th March 2020, 03:12 AM	#162
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,049	In WW2 plans that had been put in place before the war were brought in to operation, there was an entire government department to coordinate and run it.

19th March 2020, 03:13 AM	#163
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,049	Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'. China should be punished.

19th March 2020, 03:25 AM	#164
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,054	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop In WW2 plans that had been put in place before the war were brought in to operation, there was an entire government department to coordinate and run it. That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all. We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach.

19th March 2020, 03:27 AM	#165
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,054	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'. China should be punished. Here's the article where he says it. https://www.newsweek.com/nigel-farag...ethink-1493085 Quote: I believe that attention should now turn to China. When President Trump has talked about the "Chinese virus" (others have called it the "Wuhan Virus") he has been met with waves of criticism and accusations of racism. In the House of Commons, the shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry even said of Trump: "Now he's calling it the foreign virus, blaming it on Europe for its spread and today blaming China." I hate to break it to Ms Thornberry, but Trump is right. And it is time we all challenged China. He's a **** !

19th March 2020, 09:55 AM	#167
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,049	HANNITY, March 9: "This scaring the living hell out of people -- I see it, again, as like, let's bludgeon Trump with this new hoax." HANNITY, March 18: "By the way, this program has always taken the coronavirus seriously. We've never called the virus a hoax."

19th March 2020, 01:35 PM	#171
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,576	Originally Posted by Trebuchet It's not just mechanical. You need specialized electronics. You aren't going to produce those in the garage. Something I've never seen addressed -- in an emergency (and if you have one), wouldn't a CPAP at least help as a respirator/ventilator? I think there are plenty of those around, and especially a lot of older people have them.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

19th March 2020, 07:23 PM	#172
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by The Don That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all. "They practice before hand which spoils the fun"
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,701	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

19th March 2020, 07:34 PM	#173
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 18,905	Originally Posted by alfaniner Something I've never seen addressed -- in an emergency (and if you have one), wouldn't a CPAP at least help as a respirator/ventilator? I think there are plenty of those around, and especially a lot of older people have them. Possibly. I recall seeing a series of tweets from a doctor in an overrun hospital in northern Italy, describing how they used all available standard ventilators, then all available NIVs (non-invasive ventilators), then all available CPAP machines, then all the rigs of some even more basic type. I wasn't sure whether or not they had some way of feeding O2 into the CPAP machines.
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

19th March 2020, 07:49 PM	#174
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 18,905	A weird possible medium-term repercussion: if the Chinese policy of rigorous internal containment succeeds, and the European and American policies of flattening the curve while ultimately exposing most of the population also succeed, then most Chinese nationals will be unable to safely travel to most parts of the world (or return without a lengthy quarantine), while immune foreigners will (if permitted) be able to travel to China. Until a vaccine or effective treatment is available.
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

19th March 2020, 08:15 PM	#175
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,017	Originally Posted by The Don That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all. We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach. All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

19th March 2020, 11:45 PM	#176
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,054	Originally Posted by Mojo Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant. It's the same thing President Trump does, says whatever he thinks will appeal to the audience without any basis in fact. It's what passes for leadership these days

19th March 2020, 11:47 PM	#177
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,054	Originally Posted by a_unique_person All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill. Oh no, no, no, no, no.....

20th March 2020, 02:16 AM	#178
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,054	At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ? If we have a major long-term economic downturn then the resulting excess deaths over several years could easily exceed those predicted from Coronavirus (IIRC up to 1% of population is the prediction for the UK if no action is taken) not to mention the economic and social upheaval of having more than 20% of the population unemployed for months or years, the collapse of entire industries and long-term shortages of crucial items. I suppose that government need to consider these political considerations.

20th March 2020, 06:19 AM	#179
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,358	Originally Posted by The Don At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ? In our modern society we value lives more than anything else - at least when they are of our own nationality, and presumably also having the same skin colour, and language. At least, that is the theory. But you are right, in real politics, a life does have a value, and the cost of saving a life can be more than what society is willing to pay. I find it interesting that China - where lives are usually regarded as worth less than in the West - have been doing so much to contain the virus. The low value of life in China was probably seen most clearly in the initial reaction of suppression.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

20th March 2020, 07:05 AM	#180
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,537	Originally Posted by The Don At what point does shutting down large parts of the economy for 4, 8, 12, 16 weeks become more damaging than allowing the pandemic to run its course with all the deaths that would involve ? I'd say it comes down to food. When so many people are on lockdown that it threatens food production and distribution enough that starvation is likely, then it will change. No point in saving a million people from the virus if two million starve to death. Now, how likely this is to impact the food system that much is a good question, but I for one have bought bananas for the first time in a while, largely because I figured shipping fresh bananas to Canada was a somewhat lower priority when shipping in general is at risk. I have no doubt they will become rarer and more expensive in the near future.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

20th March 2020, 07:23 AM	#181
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,659	Originally Posted by The Don That sounds awfully like the kind of tactics that awful foreigners would adopt - make a plan beforehand and then implement it diligently - not the British way at all. We seem to have invented a national myth that pluck, courage and the Corinthian spirit allowed us to get through the war years and have forgotten about how carefully plans were made ahead of time and the huge efforts that went into managing and coordinating the implementation of those plans - perhaps because it suits the velleity that seems to be the current government's standard approach. It's akin to the veneration of Churchill. Our view of WW2 is really based on the propaganda we used during the war. What actually happened in WW2 in the country was very different. People looked out for themselves, people cheated, we had a whole black market that everybody with the means used and so. It was not the good old knees up we now like to believe it was.l
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

20th March 2020, 07:25 AM	#182
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,659	Originally Posted by Mojo Nasty moment for Boris there, when after he said he was confident that we can “turn the tide” within 12 weeks, a journalist asked him what that meant. It’s meant to mean something? That’s going to be a new concept for Johnson.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

20th March 2020, 07:27 AM	#183
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,659	Originally Posted by a_unique_person All it takes to be Churchill is to believe that one is Churchill. And be a complete bastard, so Johnson at least has one qualification.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

20th March 2020, 09:09 AM	#184
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,049	Kansas official: Pandemic isn’t a problem here because there are few Chinese people https://amp.kansascity.com/opinion/e...241353836.html

20th March 2020, 09:30 AM	#185
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 33,923	I've lots of relatives in the next couple of counties. They probably think the same thing. ETA: I'm finding it quite hilarious how many Republicans are still parroting Trump's initial denial even after he's moved on.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. Last edited by Trebuchet; 20th March 2020 at 09:32 AM.

20th March 2020, 10:22 AM	#186
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Leching at tractors (in Wales) Posts: 27,804	Originally Posted by Darat And be a complete bastard, so Johnson at least has one qualification.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

20th March 2020, 10:31 AM	#187
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,049	Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus Nothing about self employed or contract workers though.

20th March 2020, 10:54 AM	#188
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,774	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus Nothing about self employed or contract workers though. And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

20th March 2020, 11:16 AM	#189
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,753	Originally Posted by Garrison And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction. All gyms too. For people who live alone and for whom the pub or the gym is an important social hub, it is likely to be quite depressing. In fact, I expect you couldn’t have a prison of solitude confinement and Disney+. It would surely be a violation of human rights. Similarly, for those who end up trapped with people they don’t like. Abusive families, or unhygienic room mates, etc...
	__________________ Слава Україні! **** Putin!

20th March 2020, 11:22 AM	#190
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,022	Is anyone else checking out the live webcams around the world? Seeing various mega cities with their streets mostly empty, it's a wee bit eerie....
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

20th March 2020, 12:40 PM	#191
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,049	We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues.

20th March 2020, 01:54 PM	#192
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 33,923	Georgia state legislator has symptoms, gets tested, goes to the assembly and votes, and announces he's tested positive, in that order. Wotta Maroon!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

20th March 2020, 02:34 PM	#193
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,576	Originally Posted by Garrison And of course also just announced bars, pubs and restaurants are to close. I get the need to contain the virus but sooner rather than later we are going to see some nasty psychological consequences of a policy which basically amounts to sitting at home staring at the same four walls day after day. I don't care if you've got Netflix, Amazon Prime and Disney+ its not a substitute for social interaction. I have to wonder about all those people who unashamedly said "Oh, I can't cook!" and depended on going out all the time. Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop We can't go to the pub but we can all cram in to supermarket queues. A lot of stores are reducing hours (I understand why) but for someone who used to always go late, now it forces me to be there at a time when there are many more people in the store.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

20th March 2020, 02:46 PM	#194
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,659	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Chancellor says govt will pay 80% of wages to companies for workers off with virus Nothing about self employed or contract workers though. Support for small businesses i.e. self employed were outlined earlier in the week.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

20th March 2020, 03:42 PM	#195
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,863	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Nigel Farage says it is time we 'challenged' the Chinese 'regime' and 'enough is enough'. China should be punished. By banning imports of Chinese made pharmaceuticals, medical equipment et cetera?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.