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Old 25th July 2014, 12:54 AM   #1
WilliamSeger
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AE911truth "debate challenge"

Quote:
9/11 DEBATE CHALLENGE: Only Credentialed Professionals Need Apply

$1,000 Prize to Charity of Choice

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth is offering credentialed building professionals a 9/11 Debate Challenge an opportunity to publicly endorse the National Construction Safety Team Act Report 1A (NCSTAR 1A), titled Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Building 7 (WTC 7) and published in November 2008 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).

By issuing this 9/11 Debate Challenge, AE911Truth hopes to further educate fellow building professionals and the public about NIST's collapse initiation hypothesis and its assertion of subsequent structural failures. AE911Truth, as the "Challenger of NIST," trusts that such a debate with the "Champion of NIST," whoever that may be, will allow the evidence for the explosive controlled demolition of WTC 7 to be presented side by side with videos and other forensic evidence obtained from NIST's own files.
Why is AE911Truth issuing a 9/11 Debate Challenge? Ever since 2006, when AE911Truth founder Richard Gage, AIA, started a petition calling for a new, independent investigation of the WTC destruction on 9/11, detractors have claimed that the "small minority" of architects and engineers who have signed it 2,216 to date, and counting "do not represent" the prevailing sentiment of either the architectural or engineering professions.

-snip-

A $1,000 challenge is hereby offered for a team comprised of a LICENSED high-rise architect and a LICENSED structural engineer and/or an active FULL professor of either of these disciplines to publicly defend the integrity of the NIST NCSTAR 1A final report on WTC 7, in a debate exchange format, with members of the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth team. The challenge will be won by the team that has convinced more than 50 percent of the audience to either agree or disagree with this statement: "The key questions raised by Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth have been adequately addressed by NIST, and a new investigation regarding the destruction of WTC 7 would continue to support NIST's conclusions that WTC 7 was destroyed by a fire-induced, gravity-only progressive collapse. Yes or no?"
http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-se...nly-apply.html
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Old 25th July 2014, 01:03 AM   #2
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Not enough money to debate a morass of stupidity.
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Old 25th July 2014, 03:19 AM   #3
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Does the AE 9/11 team have to meet the same qualifications?

I wonder who they got for their team. Both Gage and Szamboti are out.
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Old 25th July 2014, 04:16 AM   #4
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Isn't this the second or third time they've tried to get a debate challenge going? Of course, when nobody takes them up on it, they'll crow triumphantly about how that means The Establishment is so afraid of The Twoof that They (tm) won't allow anybody to debate them!
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Old 25th July 2014, 05:44 AM   #5
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Gotta love the disingenuously loaded question to be debated (or actually, two disingenuously conjoined questions). NIST has not addressed many of the "questions raised by Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth" -- "adequately" or otherwise -- because they're too ridiculous, but Gage is desperately hoping that whether or not the challenge is accepted, those "questions" will be legitimized as debatable issues.
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Old 25th July 2014, 05:53 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Gotta love the disingenuously loaded question to be debated (or actually, two disingenuously conjoined questions). NIST has not addressed many of the "questions raised by Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth" -- "adequately" or otherwise -- because they're too ridiculous, but Gage is desperately hoping that whether or not the challenge is accepted, those "questions" will be legitimized as debatable issues.


And, of course, this bit:

Quote:
The challenge will be won by the team that has convinced more than 50 percent of the audience to either agree or disagree with this statement:

Because there's no chance at all the majority of the audience will already be truthers....

And of course, the best way to determine which side knows what they're talking about is a poll of untrained randoms.....

Has there ever been one of these sorts of "challenges" from Woosters that wasn't blatantly biased in their favor? I don't think I've ever seen one.
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Old 25th July 2014, 06:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Does the AE 9/11 team have to meet the same qualifications?

I wonder who they got for their team. Both Gage and Szamboti are out.
There's also an implicit "qualification" that participants must agree that this is a reasonable venue and format for debating technical issues, and that the opinions of a self-selected non-expert audience after 90-minutes of rhetoric is how they are settled.

(ETA, Horatius beat me to it .)

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 25th July 2014 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 25th July 2014, 06:23 AM   #8
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Years ago, when I asked Michael Newman at NIST if someone from NIST would ever consider a debate with Gage, he said "There's nothing to debate."
When I debated Gage, I refused to frame it as a defense of the NIST Report. Instead, I framed it as "Controlled Demolition vs Natural Collapse," and was therefore free to bring in CTBUH, Purdue, University of Hawaii, etc. The debate was more than fair, and they actually publicly reported that twice as many people who changed their minds were swayed in my direction. However, as it was 90%+ 9/11 Truth people, of course I would have "lost" the debate based on a majority not changing their minds.
I'm not sure who they would have for their side of the debate. Who is 9/11 Truth is a "LICENSED high-rise architect and a LICENSED structural engineer and/or an active FULL professor of either of these disciplines"?
As most of you know, debating is a skill that has nothing to do with being on the side of truth. My high school nephew is on the debate team, and he has to prepare both sides of an argument. They flip a coin to determine which side his team advocates for. While Richard Gage is a very compelling speaker, he is only am average debater (this is not a put-down of him). Neither of us are trained debaters, and I "won" the debate based on my natural abilities and preparation, not because I was right (tho of course I am convinced I AM right!). So I'm surprised to see this challenge. Many people at AE911 oppose the debate format, and with good reason.
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Old 25th July 2014, 06:33 AM   #9
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This would make it fun:

Quote:
Audience:

Attendance at the 9/11 Debate Challenge will be open to students and faculty, and the general public enrolled or teaching in the structural engineering field. . The doors will be closed once the debate has begun. All members of the audience who have listened to the entire debate may vote. The debate will be recorded for later broadcast.
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Old 25th July 2014, 06:54 AM   #10
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Shouldn't this information also be posted for the AE 9/11 team (to insure they are qualified)?


Quote:
Proposals:

Full name and title, daytime and evening phone numbers, email address, city and state (or province) of work or residence of each team member

Professional biography/curriculum vitae of each team member

Professional license number and state (or province) of registration of each team member
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Old 25th July 2014, 07:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

DebateChallenge@ae911truth.org

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain ae911truth.org by mx1.cloudaccess.net. [199.116.78.90].

The error that the other server returned was:
550 <debatechallenge@ae911truth.org> No such user here
Maybe they're just not ready to take on challengers. I emailed them for their team member list.
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Old 25th July 2014, 07:32 AM   #12
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I would love to see the team member list for them. I would also like to know who is putting up the money.
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Old 25th July 2014, 07:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Trojan View Post
I would love to see the team member list for them. I would also like to know who is putting up the money.
There's a $1000 now unaccounted for from the "physics challenge". It was donated to the Mark Bassile study but now it is no longer listed there.
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Old 25th July 2014, 08:25 AM   #14
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Typical drivel. Demand the highest standards from everyone else, while parading around fraud and pseudo experts as the "truth".
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Old 25th July 2014, 05:36 PM   #15
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I'd love to see Gage the swindler agree to do this in front of the ASCE, but we all know that won't happen.
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Old 25th July 2014, 07:57 PM   #16
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He really should attend an ASCE conference and conduct a seminar on stealth CD. I'm sure the people who conduct CD for a living could learn a lot from his expertise. LOL.

$1,000? That's a puny amount.
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Old 25th July 2014, 10:22 PM   #17
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Unsurprisingly AE911truth is trying to get publicity using the famous "any publicity is good publicity" motto once again. I almost wish one of these organizations would give them a thorough smack down but then again I don't dignifying psuedo-science and engineering with the attention.
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Old 25th July 2014, 11:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Iamafalser View Post
He really should attend an ASCE conference and conduct a seminar on stealth CD. I'm sure the people who conduct CD for a living could learn a lot from his expertise. LOL.

$1,000? That's a puny amount.
Well, Gage DID give a presentation at a recent AIA Convention in Denver, and got several dozen arcchitects to sign his petition (I saw the signatures myself).
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Old 26th July 2014, 05:40 AM   #19
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Our species is doomed.
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Old 26th July 2014, 07:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Well, Gage DID give a presentation at a recent AIA Convention in Denver, and got several dozen arcchitects to sign his petition (I saw the signatures myself).
Not surprising. In general, architects have very little knowledge related to materials science and the details of structural engineering. Their job is to deisgn buildings to look pretty.

Go to any university's website and look up the graduation requirements for a degree in architecture. Then look up the requirements for a degree in civil engineering.

Convincing a few gullible architects is child's play a for a practiced charlatan like Gage. Convincing actual structural engineers is way beyond his pay grade. (or donation grade)

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Old 26th July 2014, 07:41 AM   #21
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Most states haven't created a structural engineering license. Even fewer actually require them to do structural engineering work.

see here: http://www.ncsea.com/resources/licensure/
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Old 26th July 2014, 07:43 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
Well, Gage DID give a presentation at a recent AIA Convention in Denver, and got several dozen arcchitects to sign his petition (I saw the signatures myself).
I have to wonder why he doesn't try to present at SEA Annual Conferences.
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Old 26th July 2014, 02:34 PM   #23
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If you are going to debate AETruth, besides a Architect and a Structural Engineer, you are also going to need:

Clinical Psychologist – specializing in delusional paranoia
IRS Investigator – specializing in non-profit originations
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Old 26th July 2014, 09:26 PM   #24
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For a debate, a marrying minister would be OK.
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Old 27th July 2014, 02:30 PM   #25
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And one again, they've failed to comprehend what debate is for, and have thus come up with a "debate topic" that has nothing to do with a proposed decision or available course of action.
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Old 27th July 2014, 02:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
And one again, they've failed to comprehend what debate is for, and have thus come up with a "debate topic" that has nothing to do with a proposed decision or available course of action.
They know exactly what they want debate to mean. It's attention and validation, if someone "debates" them it means their views have merit.

It's really the universal meaning in the CT world (and other woo also).
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Old 28th July 2014, 09:33 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
They know exactly what they want debate to mean. It's attention and validation, if someone "debates" them it means their views have merit.
I can't agree more. I was looking for a way to state this as succinctly as you have. For all their bluster, Tony S. and the others know full well they have practically no credibility in the real world. It's an almost fanatical scramble for attention -- even bad publicity works. Another case in point: Moon hoax author Bill Kaysing tried to sue astronaut Jim Lovell (case dismissed with prejudice). If people with real-world knowledge, expertise, and credibility publicly acknowledge you and your work in any way, it suggests the work stands on somewhat equal footing with theirs and is worth the same class of attention.

Accepting only highly qualified opponents wrongly implies their side has that same level of rigor and merit. It's a gamble. In effect they imply, "Our arguments are too technical to be understood by laymen, and we're too important to be bothered debating anything less than the best experts." Obviously this serves only to narrow the field of opponents.

Commensurately, accepting only narrowly qualified opponents means the list of candidate opponents is very small indeed. And this leads to the other leg of the Let's Have a Debate ploy: if no one accepts their challenge, because none in the tiny list of opponents they'll accept wants to stoop to their nonsense, they can then plausibly claim that they offered the world a fair debate and no one "was able" to answer their challenge. "We invited the world's experts to debate us on the merits of our claim, but none was able to rise to the challenge." To them -- and more importantly, to their vast ranks of potential contributors -- this stands as a different kind of validation.

The tautological nature of this ploy is, as you say, well known in the survey of conspiracy rhetoric.
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Old 28th July 2014, 09:59 AM   #28
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Agree 100%. Look at this quote from a Huffington Post article on Ken Ham.

Quote:
Creationist Ken Ham, who recently debated Bill Nye the Science Guy over the origins of the universe, is calling for an end to the search for extraterrestrial life because aliens probably don't exist -- and if they do, they're going to Hell anyway.
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Old 28th July 2014, 07:21 PM   #29
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Reporting-MTA: dns; qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.243]
Received-From-MTA: dns; omta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.20]
Arrival-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 01:31:31 +0000


Final-recipient: rfc822; debatechallenge@ae911truth.org
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 <debatechallenge@ae911truth.org> No such user here
Last-attempt-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 01:31:32 +0000

This is starting to look like a total scam...I haven't been able to get an email thru in four days.
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Old 28th July 2014, 07:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MileHighMadness View Post
Reporting-MTA: dns; qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.243]
Received-From-MTA: dns; omta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.20]
Arrival-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 01:31:31 +0000


Final-recipient: rfc822; debatechallenge@ae911truth.org
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 <debatechallenge@ae911truth.org> No such user here
Last-attempt-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 01:31:32 +0000

This is starting to look like a total scam...I haven't been able to get an email thru in four days.
I just shot them an e-mail as well:

Quote:
Message Not Delivered

Something went wrong.


We were unable to deliver your message to the following address
debatechallenge@ae911truth.org
because User name of email address not valid
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:34 AM   #31
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The entire thing is just so adolescent.
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Old 29th July 2014, 02:14 AM   #32
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The organization is run by immature people... and their mission is gathering attention...
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Old 29th July 2014, 04:51 AM   #33
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Strange, I have sent an e-mail to DebateChallenge@AE911Truth.org but it has not come back. Maybe those that tried before can try again. Or maybe this was a fluke?
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Old 29th July 2014, 06:37 AM   #34
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Your emails didn't go through because they know that you don't meet the criteria to join the debate.
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Old 29th July 2014, 07:43 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by swright777 View Post
Your emails didn't go through because they know that you don't meet the criteria to join the debate.
Hehe, except that the transcript above shows that their mail agent isn't configured to receive messages there at all, from anyone. It's therefore clearly a publicity stunt with no intent ever to have any such debate, regardless of the applicants' qualifications.
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Old 29th July 2014, 07:47 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Strange, I have sent an e-mail to DebateChallenge@AE911Truth.org but it has not come back. Maybe those that tried before can try again. Or maybe this was a fluke?
Mail agents sometimes try for days to deliver a message, so be patient. Also, your ISP's own mail agent may be configured not to deliver rejected messages back to you. The SMTP diagnostics are pretty clear what happened at AE911T's end in those other cases.
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Old 29th July 2014, 02:29 PM   #37
rjh01
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Mail agents sometimes try for days to deliver a message, so be patient. Also, your ISP's own mail agent may be configured not to deliver rejected messages back to you. The SMTP diagnostics are pretty clear what happened at AE911T's end in those other cases.
I have had rejected e-mails before. Still waiting for this one. How long before you lot got your reject e-mails? Normally when I get one I get mine within minutes of sending the original e-mail.
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Old 29th July 2014, 02:39 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I have had rejected e-mails before. Still waiting for this one. How long before you lot got your reject e-mails? Normally when I get one I get mine within minutes of sending the original e-mail.
Within a hour or so.............

I just resent it...........I'll let you know.

ETA: This is what I asked in the email: "Will the AE team members be held to the same qualifications as the challengers? If so, who are they?"

I also sent it to Gage and his office (person) email.
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Old 30th July 2014, 02:08 PM   #39
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The emails are not bouncing back anymore. They're not being responded to but, that's to be expected from a group that's only "asking questions".

Maybe they think they need to keep their dream team under wraps until they see their opponents.

The funny thing, If Gage is qualified, a "high-rise architect" is anyone that worked on a project 3 stories or higher.
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Old 31st July 2014, 12:14 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The emails are not bouncing back anymore. They're not being responded to but, that's to be expected from a group that's only "asking questions".

Maybe they think they need to keep their dream team under wraps until they see their opponents.

The funny thing, If Gage is qualified, a "high-rise architect" is anyone that worked on a project 3 stories or higher.
I once worked as a software project engineer on the ninth floor of an eleven story building so I might qualify.
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