ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags ae911truth

Reply
Old 3rd July 2015, 04:30 PM   #1
MileHighMadness
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Just Southeast of Hell
Posts: 647
Beyond misinformation

New booklet from AE 9/11 Truth...looks like another scam to get donations.

http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d03bf3ffcac549c7dc7888ef5&id=876ebb6658&e=[UNIQID]

I'm going wait by my mailbox until my free copy arrives
__________________
“I don’t look forward to heaven, it sounds as boring as hell.” Lord Postsettle
MileHighMadness is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2015, 04:54 PM   #2
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,633
Originally Posted by MileHighMadness View Post
New booklet from AE 9/11 Truth...looks like another scam to get donations.

http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d03bf3ffcac549c7dc7888ef5&id=876ebb6658&e=[UNIQID]

I'm going wait by my mailbox until my free copy arrives
Quote:
Producing 20,000 high-quality copies of this booklet and mailing them to 20,000 lucky recipients will cost us $50,000. At just $2.50 apiece, it’s incredibly cost-effective — and we're confident we can raise that amount because so many of us are willing and ready to support this kind of outreach.
That's a lot of money for a pretty new bow..........

__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2015, 04:59 PM   #3
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,633
Quote:
We also want you to have a copy to show everyone you know! That's why, with a donation of $30 or more between now and July 15th, you will receive your own Beyond Misinformation booklet in the mail this September. Together, we will blanket the A/E community and our own communities with the evidence about what happened at the World Trade Center on 9/11.

Will you be a part of our most important September 2015 project?!
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2015, 01:36 PM   #4
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,821
Mailing to all "250" persons who worked on the FEMA & NIST reports! Anyone know if that number is accurate?
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2015, 01:43 PM   #5
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,633
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Mailing to all "250" persons who worked on the FEMA & NIST reports! Anyone know if that number is accurate?
If anything, I would say it's an under estimate. Adding together all the contributors would give you a much larger number.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2015, 02:10 PM   #6
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,821
DGM, that's my impression too. Could be Gage trying to minimize the FEMA & NIST effort by under reporting the number of those who worked on them. Also needs to remain smaller because the more involved, the more questions arise why none of them blow the whistle.

One wonders how the 250 will regard this flier that will basically accuse them of being involved in the cover up of mass murder and treason.

Last edited by jaydeehess; 4th July 2015 at 02:13 PM.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2015, 06:15 PM   #7
Drs_Res
NWO Acorn Hoarder
 
Drs_Res's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: N 34 3 8 / W 118 14 33
Posts: 2,102
So the $2.50 a piece (including shipping) high-quality booklet will cost someone $30.00 or more? What a bargain.

I bet you will be able to download the thing from the website for free.
__________________
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
Drs_Res is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 12:42 AM   #8
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,982
A booklet for $2.50 each is rather cheap. That is only 5 cents per page. Then there is postage costs on top. I guess they have not taken that into account.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 12:57 AM   #9
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,094
2.5 dollars production costs for a little book of some 50 pages at an amount of 20.000 pieces is..... excessive to say the least.
One would expect an integral binding with a hard cover of some kind with those prices. Only integral binding is hardly doable with only 50 pages (52 to be exact) to work with.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 02:42 AM   #10
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,723
And even if it did cost that much, you'd have to subtract something for the negative value of the content.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 04:26 AM   #11
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,982
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
2.5 dollars production costs for a little book of some 50 pages at an amount of 20.000 pieces is..... excessive to say the least.
One would expect an integral binding with a hard cover of some kind with those prices. Only integral binding is hardly doable with only 50 pages (52 to be exact) to work with.
There would be 13 pieces of A3 paper required to make this book. One of which is the cover made of cardboard. They would also need a dollar for postage and maybe 50c for the the envelope and address label. This budget would only have a $1 or so for printing. This I am sure is not enough money.
__________________
This signature is for rent.

Last edited by rjh01; 5th July 2015 at 04:31 AM.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 06:51 AM   #12
Georgio
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 472
I think this is what AE911Truth should concentrate on from now on. That is to say getting their message to qualified professionals rather than the lay public. I know a lot of people disagree with me but I think we can't really say how many qualified professionals think a new investigation is justified because we don't know how many of them are actually aware of the objections to the so-called 'official explanation'.

If AE911Truth concentrate on getting this information to the relevant professionals then we will know that they are aware of the objections to the 'official' account and the numbers of signatories of the AE911Truth petition will become more meaningful.

I've said in the past that there should be an opposing petition against a new investigation where people would sign something like, 'I have read and understood all the points put forward by AE911Truth and do not agree that they lead to the conclusion that the WTC buildings were destroyed by a controlled demolition. I therefore do not believe a new investigation is justified.'

At the moment all we have is a 'default position' argument where we infer the above by the fact that person A hasn't signed the AE911Truth position, but this inference is not justified despite many people's insistence that scientists and particularly professional engineers are immune to intellectual lazyness and so couldn't possibly have failed to think about the details of the collapses.
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 07:08 AM   #13
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,094
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
There would be 13 pieces of A3 paper required to make this book. One of which is the cover made of cardboard. They would also need a dollar for postage and maybe 50c for the the envelope and address label. This budget would only have a $1 or so for printing. This I am sure is not enough money.
Pure production costs would be 1,5 euro's per book. That is including sealing each in plastic foil, needing only an address sticker on it for sending. No need for envelopes
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 07:29 AM   #14
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,723
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I've said in the past that there should be an opposing petition against a new investigation where people would sign something like, 'I have read and understood all the points put forward by AE911Truth and do not agree that they lead to the conclusion that the WTC buildings were destroyed by a controlled demolition. I therefore do not believe a new investigation is justified.'
The problem with this sort of response is that it dignifies an intellectually bankrupt argument. Project Steve is probably the best model for a response, except that it's only funny the first time.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 07:45 AM   #15
NoahFence
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
That's a lot of money for a pretty new bow..........

50k for 20k brochures? That's a 200 dollar job!
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 08:47 AM   #16
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,234
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
...
If AE911Truth concentrate on getting this information to the relevant professionals then we will know that they are aware of the objections to the 'official' account and the numbers of signatories of the AE911Truth petition will become more meaningful.
...
I disagree.
Unless you come up with a reasonable definition of who the "relevant" professionals are. Do you think of all civil and structural engineers and all architects? I'd disagree with that broad approach. I'd limit this to all those who are actually responsible for the safety of highrise designes, as researchers, university teachers, people who do codes and investigations for building structures, and those who are actually in the business of planning and erecting such structures.

Such as the engineering departments at Delft, MIT...
Such as the proferssional journals and the associations of structural engineering
Such as those who publish in the structural and fire engineering journals
Such as the National Institutes for Standards
Such as the Institutes of Architects
Such as lobby groups for tall buildings and urban habitat.

But wait - all these groups are among those already on record as rejecting the truther lore!
So who cares if your neighborhood architects who does cool bungalows on the beach is fooled by Gage's tall tales? He is not relevant.



I propose that most architects and many civil engineers, not to speak of all the non-construction engineers, aren't familiar on any detail level with the facts of 9/11 and the "official" story. If you infuse them with the "objections to the 'official' account", you need to also infuse them first with the 'official' account, and then the objections to these objections.
It feels silly to even write this.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 09:10 AM   #17
Georgio
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
But wait - all these groups are among those already on record as rejecting the truther lore!
I'm talking about individuals rather than statements made on behalf of professional groups. You don't have to like eating KFC in order to work for KFC, or think that PCs are better than Macs in order to work for Microsoft, but statements on behalf of both companies wouldn't include anything about KFC or Microsoft stuff not being the very best option. I'd like to hear what relevantly qualified individuals think, and to know that they have been made aware of the information. This would really make the number of AE911Truth signatories meaningful, and nobody could say, 'They're not aware of the information'.
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 11:17 AM   #18
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,059
911 truth is a fraud, based on the ignorance of the followers. A lairs faith based ignorance celebration fest based on delusions.
Gage has idiots who sign up, and they have no clue and will take no action - gee, Gage's followers' peers include the Boston bombers and failed old men with delusions.


Quote:
MISINFORMATION: What Science Says about the Destruction of World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2, and 7.
Gage has no clue what science is.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 5th July 2015 at 11:38 AM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 11:32 AM   #19
Mudcat
Man of a Thousand Memes
 
Mudcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,474
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
One wonders how the 250 will regard this flier that will basically accuse them of being involved in the cover up of mass murder and treason.
Would this even make a bleep on their radar?
__________________
"There is no special treatment for guns." ~WildCat, confirmed gun owner.
Mudcat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 11:45 AM   #20
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,723
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I'm talking about individuals rather than statements made on behalf of professional groups. You don't have to like eating KFC in order to work for KFC, or think that PCs are better than Macs in order to work for Microsoft, but statements on behalf of both companies wouldn't include anything about KFC or Microsoft stuff not being the very best option.
You're missing the rather important point that the relationship between a professional organisation and its members is fundamentally different to that between a company and its employees.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 12:29 PM   #21
Georgio
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
You're missing the rather important point that the relationship between a professional organisation and its members is fundamentally different to that between a company and its employees.
I think I must be. Can you clarify what those differences are and how they relate to this?
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 12:34 PM   #22
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,234
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I'm talking about individuals rather than statements made on behalf of professional groups. You don't have to like eating KFC in order to work for KFC, or think that PCs are better than Macs in order to work for Microsoft, but statements on behalf of both companies wouldn't include anything about KFC or Microsoft stuff not being the very best option. I'd like to hear what relevantly qualified individuals think, and to know that they have been made aware of the information. This would really make the number of AE911Truth signatories meaningful, and nobody could say, 'They're not aware of the information'.
And I asked you to delimit the circle of "relevant" individuals!
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 12:40 PM   #23
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,234
I just have to share the following: AE911Truth has now shifted to full gear - the day is approaching fast where the entire world will be waking up to the truth, because - get this:

- Someone put up am ReThink911 banner at a bridge in Oregon, waived a US flag and pointed at the sign!!!
- Gage personally handed out brochures in Sandpoint, Idaho (pop. 7,000)

How adorable!
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 01:14 PM   #24
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,723
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I think I must be. Can you clarify what those differences are and how they relate to this?
A professional organisation serves the interests of its members. Employees serve the interests of a company. They're more or less opposites.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 01:42 PM   #25
Georgio
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
And I asked you to delimit the circle of "relevant" individuals!
I can't really do that as I don't properly understand the subject. Your list looks sensible to me, but you seemed to be suggesting that to approach individuals in these organizations was pointless as the organizations have already made statements opposing AE911Truth's claims. I outlined why I disagreed with that.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
A professional organisation serves the interests of its members. Employees serve the interests of a company. They're more or less opposites.
OK, but I still don't get why that means we can assume every member of a professional organization will agree with statements made by that organization's spokespeople. Is that what you're saying?
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 01:46 PM   #26
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,633
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I just have to share the following: AE911Truth has now shifted to full gear - the day is approaching fast where the entire world will be waking up to the truth, because - get this:

- Someone put up am ReThink911 banner at a bridge in Oregon, waived a US flag and pointed at the sign!!!
- Gage personally handed out brochures in Sandpoint, Idaho (pop. 7,000)

How adorable!
Quote:
On Independence Day 2015, AE911Truth's Richard Gage and several other local 9/11 Truth activists stepped up their efforts to educate and enlighten the citizenry of 7,000-strong Sandpoint about what really caused the destruction of the three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11, 2001
Does this mean they don't need a "new investigation" and are actually presenting a coherent theory? I wonder where this can be found? Let me guess, you have to buy the book......
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 5th July 2015 at 01:48 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 01:57 PM   #27
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,723
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
OK, but I still don't get why that means we can assume every member of a professional organization will agree with statements made by that organization's spokespeople. Is that what you're saying?
As you can see, I'm making no such statement. However, the organisation exists to serve the members and is funded by their contributions, so its position on any issue will normally be dictated by that of the members, rather than the other way round. The power and obligations are in the opposite direction to those of paid employees of a company. Therefore, the comparison is completely invalid.

Dave

ETA: Of course, the way a professional association would determine its members' views would be a vote, like the recent AIA vote that went against AE911T 3800 to 160. So I think we can assume that most architects know what Richard Gage is full of.
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right

Last edited by Dave Rogers; 5th July 2015 at 02:09 PM.
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 02:17 PM   #28
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,633
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Of course, the way a professional association would determine its members' views would be a vote, like the recent AIA vote that went against AE911T 3800 to 160. So I think we can assume that most architects know what Richard Gage is full of.
What would be interesting would be a vote of all AE petition signers to see if they still support the cause. I'd bet they couldn't muster half to actually participate.

The biggest piece of misinformation is calling AE an organisation.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 5th July 2015 at 02:18 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 02:17 PM   #29
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,234
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
...Let me guess, you have to buy the book......
Get one for the price of twelve!
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 02:20 PM   #30
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,234
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I can't really do that as I don't properly understand the subject. Your list looks sensible to me, but you seemed to be suggesting that to approach individuals in these organizations was pointless as the organizations have already made statements opposing AE911Truth's claims. I outlined why I disagreed with that. ...
I should not pretend to have thought this trough, but I guess my point is that those individuals who decide (or work towards decisions through research...) what these organizations say publicly are among the "relevant" individuals, while the bulk of the mere members are not.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 02:25 PM   #31
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,234
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
...

ETA: Of course, the way a professional association would determine its members' views would be a vote, like the recent AIA vote that went against AE911T 3800 to 160. So I think we can assume that most architects know what Richard Gage is full of.
I think that's rather naive. Organizations decide mostly by committee. While committees are, in principle, open to all members, only a (mostly self-selected) few actually man them.

I read that all the member- and chapter-submitted resolutions at the AIA Convention were voted down, not just AE911T's (though their defeat was the worst).
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 02:26 PM   #32
George 152
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,012
The quality of their argument will be reflected in the quality of the print run.
George 152 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 03:46 PM   #33
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I think this is what AE911Truth should concentrate on from now on. That is to say getting their message to qualified professionals rather than the lay public. I know a lot of people disagree with me but I think we can't really say how many qualified professionals think a new investigation is justified because we don't know how many of them are actually aware of the objections to the so-called 'official explanation'.

If AE911Truth concentrate on getting this information to the relevant professionals then we will know that they are aware of the objections to the 'official' account and the numbers of signatories of the AE911Truth petition will become more meaningful.

I've said in the past that there should be an opposing petition against a new investigation where people would sign something like, 'I have read and understood all the points put forward by AE911Truth and do not agree that they lead to the conclusion that the WTC buildings were destroyed by a controlled demolition. I therefore do not believe a new investigation is justified.'

At the moment all we have is a 'default position' argument where we infer the above by the fact that person A hasn't signed the AE911Truth position, but this inference is not justified despite many people's insistence that scientists and particularly professional engineers are immune to intellectual lazyness and so couldn't possibly have failed to think about the details of the collapses.
You seem just not to get that from a scientific/engineering viewpoint, 9/11 Truth has been proven time and time again to not have a leg to stand upon. For a legit professional group to give serious attention to an Truther petition would be like a professional Geographers organization paying serious attention to the Flat Earth Society.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 04:15 PM   #34
Georgio
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You seem just not to get that from a scientific/engineering viewpoint, 9/11 Truth has been proven time and time again to not have a leg to stand upon.
Indeed I don't get that - partly because I have no real understanding of engineering. This is why I'd like to know how many qualified people think there may be something in the claims. It's the only way I know to shade the probabilities of who is correct in an argument I don't understand.

Quote:
For a legit professional group to give serious attention to an Truther petition would be like a professional Geographers organization paying serious attention to the Flat Earth Society.
I disagree - can you find, let's say, 100 qualified geographers who think the question of whether the earth is flat is still open?
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 04:19 PM   #35
ProBonoShill
Master Poster
 
ProBonoShill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,192
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
That's a lot of money for a pretty new bow..........

You're telling me!

Gage the dishonest scumbag is once again duping the dumb and gullible.


A quick Google search led me here:


https://www.psprint.com/resources/br...keting-budget/



Quote:
But let’s take a look at a direct-mail brochure campaign, assuming you’ll be printing and distributing 2,000 full-color 100-pound gloss letter-fold brochures with PsPrint:

Printing 386.63
Mailing list 69.00 (Assuming 2,000 Los Angeles area 40- to 41-year-old men who make more than $40,000/year)
Mailing service/postage 844.00
Total………………………………………….. $1,299.63


So let's take that figure and multiply it by 10 (keep in mind the unit cost will go down considerably as the quantity rises), making the cost 13K max.

A/E 9/11 truth scamming people once again, no surprise really.
ProBonoShill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 04:26 PM   #36
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,633
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Indeed I don't get that - partly because I have no real understanding of engineering. This is why I'd like to know how many qualified people think there may be something in the claims. It's the only way I know to shade the probabilities of who is correct in an argument I don't understand.


A real good indicator would also be how poor the AEs at AE911 are at convincing their peers.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 05:54 PM   #37
BasqueArch
Graduate Poster
 
BasqueArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,869
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Indeed I don't get that - partly because I have no real understanding of engineering. This is why I'd like to know how many qualified people think there may be something in the claims. It's the only way I know to shade the probabilities of who is correct in an argument I don't understand.

I disagree - can you find, let's say, 100 qualified geographers who think the question of whether the earth is flat is still open?
Your no real understanding of engineering is matched by your understanding of probabilities.
AIA Convention voting architects =96%, Gage is nuts.
Does this shade the probabilities of who is correct and convinces you how many qualified people think there is nothing in the claims.
Will you now admit to yourself who is correct in an argument you don't understand? The conventional story?



Of Course Not !
You didn't mean what you typed, you were just kidding yourself and us !
Conspiracists will continue to believe wrong claims because they can't help it, they like it.
__________________
In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum

Last edited by BasqueArch; 5th July 2015 at 06:33 PM.
BasqueArch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 05:55 PM   #38
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,821
Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Would this even make a bleep on their radar?
On the radar of people who will receive, unsolicted, this flier?
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 08:33 PM   #39
Richard the G
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
snip
I've said in the past that there should be an opposing petition against a new investigation where people would sign something like, 'I have read and understood all the points put forward by AE911Truth and do not agree that they lead to the conclusion that the WTC buildings were destroyed by a controlled demolition. I therefore do not believe a new investigation is justified.'
snip
Yes but you see that gives credibility to ae911truth and most professionals will not admit to readiing their nonsense.

A better petition might be. I am informed about the collapse of the twin towers and see no evidence of controlled demolition.
Richard the G is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2015, 10:03 PM   #40
Mudcat
Man of a Thousand Memes
 
Mudcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,474
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
On the radar of people who will receive, unsolicted, this flier?
What would they do with junk mail like that? If they're like most other people it'd wind up in the thrash/shredder/incinerator unread.
__________________
"There is no special treatment for guns." ~WildCat, confirmed gun owner.
Mudcat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:57 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.