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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 18th May 2018, 04:04 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes, thanks so that would have been in Germany proper. I wonder how many were arrested in the occupied territories? Thanks for looking that up I couldn't find anything however on a different note I did find this quote about being a 'National socialist"
No, not only in Germany. And not only Germans were taken into protective custody or other extra-judicial detention in the camp system, whether in the Reich or outside the Reich. Without trying to be exhaustive, outside the Reich were the KLs of the Auschwitz complex, Majdanek (KL Lublin), KL Plaszow, KL Riga- Kaiserwald, KL Stutthof, KL-Vaivara, KL-Warschaur, KL-Natzweiler-Struthof, KL_Kauen, arguably KL Gross-Rosen. (This is leaving aside non-WVHA camps like Starachowice, Skarżysko-Kamienna, the Smelt camps, camps associated with the Todt organization, etc.) I will look up the %'s of German vs non-German inmates. The scale is quite large, just within the KL system - leaving aside work reeducation camps, special camps, camps run by the Wehrmacht, camps associated with business or labor operations, and so on.
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:39 AM   #602
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From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.

Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany.

My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany.

By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons.
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Last edited by LemmyCaution; 19th May 2018 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:35 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.

Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany.

My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany.

By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons.

Excellent information I appreciate your effort in finding this out. I look at that and compare that to the number of people given sentences in the countries that have laws against denial. What two dozen over x number of years versus tens of thousands of political prisoners of the Nazis.

Would you care to estimate a number that we might use to fill in the following.

The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.

Thanks
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:16 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.

It would have to be over ten million. Technically, everyone placed in a camp were political prisoners. Their very existence was an affront to the policies of the Nazi regime.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:21 PM   #605
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Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.

It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old.
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Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.

It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old.
Those are reasonable questions he should answer. Since I rather new in this thread, I asked him if he were a total non-believer or just didn't believe parts of the Holocaust.
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