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Old 19th March 2017, 02:17 PM   #1081
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
ok, maybe you are right. I can not find the quote or the article, but I thought that scientists assumed that drugs caused more bloodflow and more brain activity and not less.
So how do you think anaesthesia works?

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
In reality: when parts of the brain shut down: people seem to experience enhanced consciousness.
Those experiences are by your argument, consequences of a partially functional brain. Can you think of any circumstance where you would accept the claims of anyone who was thus cognitively disabled?
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:37 PM   #1082
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Enhanced consciousness to describe loss of facility. Amputation must be a limb upgrade.
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Old 20th March 2017, 04:22 AM   #1083
Porpoise of Life
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Those experiences are by your argument, consequences of a partially functional brain. Can you think of any circumstance where you would accept the claims of anyone who was thus cognitively disabled?
Well, when they agree with him of course
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:51 AM   #1084
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Ok, let me show you something:

This scientific research shows that the cause of self-trancendence experience is caused by a decrease or impairment of the right parietal lobe of the brain.

Neuroscientist Jill Bolte Tayler, who experienced 'self-trancendence' says in her book: "My stroke of insight': 'My spirit soared free like a great whale gliding through the sea of silent euphoria".

She thinks it's caused by an impairment of the left sight of the brain:

"On the morning of December 10, 1996, Jill Bolte Taylor, a thirty-seven-year-old Harvard-trained brain scientist, experienced a massive stroke when a blood vessel exploded in the left side of her brain. A neuroanatomist by profession, she observed her own mind completely deteriorate to the point that she could not walk, talk, read, write, or recall any of her life, all within the space of four brief hours. As the damaged left side of her brain--the rational, grounded, detail- and time-oriented side--swung in and out of function, Taylor alternated between two distinct and opposite realties: the euphoric nirvana of the intuitive and kinesthetic right brain, in which she felt a sense of complete well-being and peace; and the logical, sequential left brain, which recognized Jill was having a stroke, and enabled her to seek help before she was lost completely."

"Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Tayler

I hope you don't ignore this contradiction in the scientific research...


You can see that a stroke in the right sight of the brain AND a stroke of the left sight of the brain causes the experience of self-trancendence.

My conclusion: the loss of brain functions in general will cause the individual going into trancendence.

Atman goes to Brahman.
The induvidual drop becomes part of the ocean.
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Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th March 2017 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:51 AM   #1085
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Ok, let me show you something:

This scientific research shows that the cause of self-trancendence experience is caused by a decrease or impairment of the right parietal lobe of the brain.

Neuroscientist Jill Bolte Tayler, who experienced 'self-trancendence' says in her book: "My stroke of insight': 'My spirit soared free like a great whale gliding through the sea of silent euphoria".

She thinks it's caused by an impairment of the left sight of the brain:

"On the morning of December 10, 1996, Jill Bolte Taylor, a thirty-seven-year-old Harvard-trained brain scientist, experienced a massive stroke when a blood vessel exploded in the left side of her brain. A neuroanatomist by profession, she observed her own mind completely deteriorate to the point that she could not walk, talk, read, write, or recall any of her life, all within the space of four brief hours. As the damaged left side of her brain--the rational, grounded, detail- and time-oriented side--swung in and out of function, Taylor alternated between two distinct and opposite realties: the euphoric nirvana of the intuitive and kinesthetic right brain, in which she felt a sense of complete well-being and peace; and the logical, sequential left brain, which recognized Jill was having a stroke, and enabled her to seek help before she was lost completely."

"Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Tayler

I hope you don't ignore this contradiction in the scientific research...


You can see that a stroke in the right sight of the brain AND a stroke of the left sight of the brain causes the experience of self-trancendence.

My conclusion: the loss of brain functions in general will cause the individual going into trancendence.

Atman goes to Brahman.
The induvidual drop becomes part of the ocean.
Once again, as Porpoise of Life noted before, as science considers one's sense of self to be a function of the brain. Then brain damage to areas relating to such a function would alter one's sense of self. Thus there is no "contradiction in the scientific research.". However, it would tend to contradict assertions that one's self or just sense of self originates somewhere besides the brain. Do you know of anyone here making such assertions that one's self or just sense of self originates somewhere besides the brain?
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:03 AM   #1086
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
My conclusion: the loss of brain functions in general will cause the individual going into trancendence.
What you appear to miss, is that a feeling of transcendence is not the same as actual metaphysical transcendence. Losing your sense of self due to a stroke does not mean you are communing with some overarching consciousness, it just means that the part of you that recognizes itself is malfunctioning.

If you believe that the brain does not produce consciousness, then how do you explain that strokes affecting particular areas have very predictable effects on the functioning of the mind?
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:34 AM   #1087
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
What you appear to miss, is that a feeling of transcendence is not the same as actual metaphysical transcendence. Losing your sense of self due to a stroke does not mean you are communing with some overarching consciousness, it just means that the part of you that recognizes itself is malfunctioning.

If you believe that the brain does not produce consciousness, then how do you explain that strokes affecting particular areas have very predictable effects on the functioning of the mind?
Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:40 AM   #1088
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.
You are wrong again.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:42 AM   #1089
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.
Hence.... my question you have quoted but ignored:
If you believe that the brain does not produce consciousness(which, apparently, you do), then how do you explain that strokes affecting particular areas of the brain have very predictable effects on the functioning of the mind?
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:45 AM   #1090
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.

If consciousness isn't a function of the brain, why does it change when the brain's functionality changes?
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:54 AM   #1091
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Define consciousness.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:57 AM   #1092
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Originally Posted by The man
Thus there is no "contradiction in the scientific research."
The scientific research: "decrease or disfunction or RIGHT parietal lob of the brain causes experiences of self-trancendence".

Jill Bolte Tayler says: "my left brain didn't work anymore and I exprienced nirvana"

No contradiction?.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:59 AM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Define consciousness.
Sure thing!

I will gladly define that term for you.

consciousness: something that is quite misunderstood by 'Maartenn100'.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:01 AM   #1094
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Define consciousness.
No.

We're not going to play games of word-definition with you.
You made a claim, we're asking you to explain it.

If you need to use a particular meaning of the word consciousness to make your point, do so. We'll listen. What we are not going to do is define your terms for you.
This is a very transparent attempt to evade the questions by retreating into a senseless semantic argument.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:08 AM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100
Define consciousness
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
No.
You talk big about consciousness but you cannot even define it?
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:10 AM   #1096
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
No.

If you need to use a particular meaning of the word consciousness to make your point, do so. We'll listen. What we are not going to do is define your terms for you.
This is a very transparent attempt to evade the questions by retreating into a senseless semantic argument.
Don't talk in the 'we'-form. Do not think that you talk for all people on this forum. Give your own opinion.
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:12 AM   #1097
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You are both avoiding to define 'consciousness', because do not know how to define it at all.

There is no clear defintion for it.
.
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:16 AM   #1098
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You are both avoiding to define 'consciousness', because do not know how to define it at all.

There is no clear defintion for it.
.

If you can't define it, why are you so sure it isn't a brain function?
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:29 AM   #1099
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
If consciousness isn't a function of the brain, why does it change when the brain's functionality changes?
A parsimonious question. However, folks that know consciousness does not arise from brain function would reply with this answer. The brain is like a radio receiver; when it becomes impaired it can't recieve as well. That's an analogy I've heard often. No matter what objection one might pose to folks, folks will believe what's emotionally satisfying. It's so frustrating.
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Old 20th March 2017, 10:37 AM   #1100
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The scientific research: "decrease or disfunction or RIGHT parietal lob of the brain causes experiences of self-trancendence".

Jill Bolte Tayler says: "my left brain didn't work anymore and I exprienced nirvana"

No contradiction?.
Nope, no contradiction, since neither asserted that only damage to one side or the other results in a feeling of transcendence of self.


See the neural basis of self for those areas of brain anatomy thought to contribute to our sense of self.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_basis_of_self

Quote:
Anatomy[edit]


Two areas of the brain that are important in retrieving self-knowledge are the medial prefrontal cortex and the medial posterior parietal cortex.[3] The posterior cingulate cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex, and medial prefrontal cortex are thought to combine to provide humans with the ability to self-reflect. The insular cortex is also thought to be involved in the process of self-reference.[4]
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Old 20th March 2017, 10:44 AM   #1101
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
A parsimonious question. However, folks that know consciousness does not arise from brain function would reply with this answer. The brain is like a radio receiver; when it becomes impaired it can't recieve as well. That's an analogy I've heard often. No matter what objection one might pose to folks, folks will believe what's emotionally satisfying. It's so frustrating.
Yeah, but unfortunately a faulty radio doesn't change folk music to jazz. You don't just channel some other person, as if tuned to a different station. You functionally change as a same person, your 'jazz' music becomes, 'folk', 'rap' or 'rock' (sticking with the analogy).
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:59 PM   #1102
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Yeah, but unfortunately a faulty radio doesn't change folk music to jazz. You don't just channel some other person, as if tuned to a different station. You functionally change as a same person, your 'jazz' music becomes, 'folk', 'rap' or 'rock' (sticking with the analogy).
Looking at your analogy some of it is correct. Looking at it from the perspective of Maartenn or some members if Skeptiko your analogy would fall apart because they would reply transcendence proves otherwise as does say idiot savants. You gotta always keep in mind this is an intuitive, ideologically driven position, mind does not equal brain, immaterialism vs. materialism. Oh, and it's nearly impossible to sink a rubber ducky.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:19 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
Looking at your analogy some of it is correct. Looking at it from the perspective of Maartenn or some members if Skeptiko your analogy would fall apart because they would reply transcendence proves otherwise as does say idiot savants. You gotta always keep in mind this is an intuitive, ideologically driven position, mind does not equal brain, immaterialism vs. materialism. Oh, and it's nearly impossible to sink a rubber ducky.
Oh, I know. It is just the radio anthology really sucks for anyone with any experience with or working on actual radios and radio communications. Heck, just Look at Maartenn100's own citation of the story of Jill Bolte Tayler. It wasn't that 'herself' was trapped or miscommunicating through some bad connection to her body it was that she, in and of herself, had fundamentally changed and was even vacillating between such modes of change. While I certainly don't expect Maartenn100 to understand, accept nor acknowledge how his own citations counter his own position, I'll still put it out there for others.
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Old 20th March 2017, 02:53 PM   #1104
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.
Prove it!
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:00 PM   #1105
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The scientific research: "decrease or disfunction or RIGHT parietal lob of the brain causes experiences of self-trancendence".

Jill Bolte Tayler says: "my left brain didn't work anymore and I exprienced nirvana"

No contradiction?.
No contradiction between the brain malfunctioning and consciousness malfunctioning, no.

You can call that malfunctioning "transcendence" or "nirvana" or "enhanced consciousness" all you like, it remains a malfunction.

The malfunctioning of the brain caused by alcohol or heroin may feel pleasant too, but it's still a malfunction.
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Old 20th March 2017, 04:15 PM   #1106
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It's so sad to see how beginning scientists are brainwashed in college:
One student says about the book of neuroanatomist dr. jill Bolte Tayler the following:

"I am an undergraduate taking a course in Clinical Neuropsychology. We read this book as well as a textbook chapter on the organization and function of the brain.
I dislike that a trained scientist talks about new age stuff, making angels, and transmitting energy from one human being to another. As scientist Jill should not devote more that one short chapter to such matters, since it is impossible to prove whether they actually work or not."
https://goo.gl/H6JxaQ

This undergraduate is already so brainwashed by the materialistic view, that she can not accept the core essence of the experience of neuroanatomist dr. Jill Bolte Tayler: the experience of another dimension. Even when it's written in a book by a neuroscientist who had these experiences of angelic beings and energy and the experience of unity with everyting around her body, the eyes of this undergraduate student are already blinded by pure materialistic thinking. She cannot value the experience of this other dimension of reality.
Very sad.
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.

Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th March 2017 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:01 PM   #1107
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Confirming evidence FOR the afterlife may not be dismissed, just because you do not like these kind of explanations.
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.

Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th March 2017 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:30 PM   #1108
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How is the article you linked evidence for an afterlife?
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:33 PM   #1109
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I'm an ex Air Force Officer. My particular job consisted of aircraft ground control. One of the things we were always on the lookout for was any sign of Oxygen deprivation in pilots under our control.
To understand what deprivation does we were sent to Homestead AFB. At the base they had an altitude chamber. We started out at 10,000 ft where no one felt distress. We where given oxygen masks and the chamber was blown out to 40,000 ft. The NCOIC said he was going to ask one person at a time to remove his oxygen mask. At that time the subject was to count a series of ten bolts on a panel in front of them. Within 10 seconds of slow counting all we heard was 1,6,4,9,92,0 or something similar. The subject was told to put on the mask again. He was perturbed because he said he was perfect in his counting. Another 20 seconds without oxygen and he would have been unconscious.
Every one tested the same way and no one mentioned any difficulty in counting even though no one could do it.
A pilot probably would not have such a quick loss of oxygen just a malfunction in his equipment but it would catch up to him. In all cases the pilots and the subjects in the chamber did not remember any thing close to actual facts.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:08 AM   #1110
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Confirming evidence FOR the afterlife may not be dismissed, just because you do not like these kind of explanations.
I would very much like to believe there is an afterlife, so I will certainly not dismiss confirmatory evidence for it if any ever turns up.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:29 AM   #1111
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I would very much like to believe there is an afterlife, so I will certainly not dismiss confirmatory evidence for it if any ever turns up.
This.
I would be thrilled if the afterlife turns out to be real.
However, I can't let my personal desires get in the way of reality. At the moment, there is as much evidence for afterlife as there is for werewolves.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:29 AM   #1112
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I would very much like to believe there is an afterlife, so I will certainly not dismiss confirmatory evidence for it if any ever turns up.
Sure. Except that none ever has, nor will, if past performance is any guide. One of the huge problems that Maarten100 has is that he is fixated on the mere existence of some form of afterlife. Suppose, for a moment, that we grant that. All of a sudden, he is stuck in an eternal battle with every other flavour of claimant as to the nature of said afterlife with not a single claimant having the foggiest clue as to what that might be like, yet with every single one claiming to "know" exactly what that is like on the basis of nothing at all.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:38 AM   #1113
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Maartenn, Jill Bolte Taylor may have experienced nirvana, and being one with the universe, but that does not mean that nirvana exists, or that the universe is something you can be one with. Experiences are not the same as reality.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:29 AM   #1114
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Originally Posted by fibbermcgee View Post
I'm an ex Air Force Officer. My particular job consisted of aircraft ground control. One of the things we were always on the lookout for was any sign of Oxygen deprivation in pilots under our control.
To understand what deprivation does we were sent to Homestead AFB. At the base they had an altitude chamber. We started out at 10,000 ft where no one felt distress. We where given oxygen masks and the chamber was blown out to 40,000 ft. The NCOIC said he was going to ask one person at a time to remove his oxygen mask. At that time the subject was to count a series of ten bolts on a panel in front of them. Within 10 seconds of slow counting all we heard was 1,6,4,9,92,0 or something similar. The subject was told to put on the mask again. He was perturbed because he said he was perfect in his counting. Another 20 seconds without oxygen and he would have been unconscious.
Every one tested the same way and no one mentioned any difficulty in counting even though no one could do it.
A pilot probably would not have such a quick loss of oxygen just a malfunction in his equipment but it would catch up to him. In all cases the pilots and the subjects in the chamber did not remember any thing close to actual facts.
Then maybe you have heard of the study of Dr. James Whinnery about G-LOC (G-force induced loss of consciousness) syndrome symptoms.

"Whinnery (1997) revealed the similarities between NDEs and G-LOC (G-force induced Loss Of Consciousness) episodes. Based on the observations of G-LOC, Whinnery noted how the experiences often involved "tunnel vision and bright lights, floating sensations, automatic movement, autoscopy, OBEs, not wanting to be disturbed, paralysis, vivid dreamlets of beautiful places, pleasurable sensations, psychological alterations of euphoria and dissociation, inclusion of friends and family, inclusion of prior memories and thoughts, the experience being very memorable (when it can be remembered), confabulation, and a strong urge to understand the experience."
(source: Wikipedia)
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:37 AM   #1115
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Then maybe you have heard of the study of Dr. James Whinnery about G-LOC (G-force induced loss of consciousness) syndrome symptoms.

"Whinnery (1997) revealed the similarities between NDEs and G-LOC (G-force induced Loss Of Consciousness) episodes. Based on the observations of G-LOC, Whinnery noted how the experiences often involved "tunnel vision and bright lights, floating sensations, automatic movement, autoscopy, OBEs, not wanting to be disturbed, paralysis, vivid dreamlets of beautiful places, pleasurable sensations, psychological alterations of euphoria and dissociation, inclusion of friends and family, inclusion of prior memories and thoughts, the experience being very memorable (when it can be remembered), confabulation, and a strong urge to understand the experience."
(source: Wikipedia)
I think anyone who's read anything more than the last page of this thread will be aware of that study, and others like it. They have been cited repeatedly to show that what people are describing as an encounter with the afterlife is nothing more than hallucinations brought about by a lack of oxygen to the brain.
I'm glad you're finally on board with this, Maarten100. The ISF has done its job, and we can move on to the next woo claim now.
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:48 AM   #1116
Maartenn100
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I think anyone who's read anything more than the last page of this thread will be aware of that study, and others like it. They have been cited repeatedly to show that what people are describing as an encounter with the afterlife is nothing more than hallucinations brought about by a lack of oxygen to the brain.
I'm glad you're finally on board with this, Maarten100. The ISF has done its job, and we can move on to the next woo claim now.
Don't be too glad too soon: I interprete this as: too much brainfunction impairment = individual is going up into trancendency. It's a matter of interpreting the studies differently.
See also: Self-Transcendence Correlates with Brain
Function Impairment
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:54 AM   #1117
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Don't be too glad too soon: I interprete this as: too much brainfunction impairment = individual is going up into trancendency. It's a matter of interpreting the studies differently.
See also: Self-Transcendence Correlates with Brain
Function Impairment

Why do you interpret it like that? How exactly are you interpreting the data, so we can follow your logic?
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:37 AM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Confirming evidence FOR the afterlife may not be dismissed, just because you do not like these kind of explanations.
What a load of crap.

Just because some people have some elements of their dreams in common that does not mean that there actually is some sort of afterlife.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:46 AM   #1119
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Don't be too glad too soon: I interprete this as: too much brainfunction impairment = individual is going up into trancendency.
Sure. Makes sense. Transcendency is the sensation of a lessening of self as various brain functions fail. It ends in death, or recovery.

Here's an equivalent: Have you ever seen a rotting corpse (say, a bird)? Does the process improve the bird's body in some way? Would you call a skeleton a more efficient body?

Your idea that a mind becomes better as it decays is like that.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:54 PM   #1120
Maartenn100
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Sure. Makes sense. Transcendency is the sensation of a lessening of self as various brain functions fail. It ends in death, or recovery.

Here's an equivalent: Have you ever seen a rotting corpse (say, a bird)? Does the process improve the bird's body in some way? Would you call a skeleton a more efficient body?

Your idea that a mind becomes better as it decays is like that.
Donn,

The brain is not efficient anymore to function in this world, that's right.

Bernardo Kastrup says:

"The self-transcending character of experiences that accompany certain types of brain injury has been evocatively described by neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor, following a stroke that damaged her brain’s left hemisphere:

"my perception of my physical boundaries was no longer limited to where my skin met air. I felt like a genie liberated from its bottle. The
energy of my spirit seemed to flow like a great whale gliding through a
sea of silent euphoria. (Taylor 2009, 67)."



Consciousness is more enhanced, while the brain is malfunctioning more and more.

Even more significantly, “the magnitude of this decrease [in brain activity] predicted the intensity of the subjective effects” of the psychedelic (Ibid.). As such, the significant self-transcending experiences that follow psychedelic intake are—counterintuitively—accompanied by reductions of brain activity.
Source:http://jcn.cognethic.org/jcnv4i3_Kastrup.pdf
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.

Last edited by Maartenn100; 21st March 2017 at 12:57 PM.
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