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Tags "The Principle" , geocentrism

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Old 31st October 2014, 10:15 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Here is the YouTube channel of the people in question that made the pseudo-documentary in the original post. At least, I'm sure it's the same people.
Yes, that's correct. In addition to being a geocentrist nutter, Robert Sungenis is also an anti-Semite and holocaust denier, although he's taken all that stuff down since his own church got after him for it.
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Old 31st October 2014, 11:12 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Nice theory. Do they have any evidence to back it up?
It's been the Scientific consensus that Spacetime in our Universe is curved 4th dimensionally, ever since Einstein's theory of relativity, which has been validated numerous times by experimentation.

See this on curved space http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/...ty_curved.html

By all means prove that spacetime is not curved 4th dimensionally and win a Nobel prize for physics.
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Old 31st October 2014, 01:54 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
It's been the Scientific consensus that Spacetime in our Universe is curved 4th dimensionally, ever since Einstein's theory of relativity, which has been validated numerous times by experimentation.

See this on curved space http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/...ty_curved.html

By all means prove that spacetime is not curved 4th dimensionally and win a Nobel prize for physics.
The claim was that "if you flew in a straight line from the earth you would eventually end up back on earth", which is curvature on a grand scale of the universe, and not the curvature caused by gravity.

ETA: In fact, so far, all measurements of the cosmic microwave background that I know of have been consistent with a flat universe.
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Old 31st October 2014, 03:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The claim was that "if you flew in a straight line from the earth you would eventually end up back on earth", which is curvature on a grand scale of the universe, and not the curvature caused by gravity.

ETA: In fact, so far, all measurements of the cosmic microwave background that I know of have been consistent with a flat universe.
The results are also perfectly consistent with a Universe curved positively or negatively albeit very small rates of curvature.

However you are right. I got the idea from science popularization stuff I had read and books like One Two Three Infinity and I was insufficiently critical. If space has a "negative" curvature or is "flat" and hence likely "infinite" than you can't travel from earth in a straight line and end up back on earth. Aside from the problem of the solar system moving in the meanwhile you've been traveling.

Mea Culpa.
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Old 31st October 2014, 07:35 PM   #45
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The movie's makers have their own Facebook page: The Principle On their site: Opening Weekend And Moving Forward Update | The Principle -- they are adding a second theater in Chicago and negotiating its appearance in theaters in other cities.
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Old 1st November 2014, 10:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
The movie's makers have their own Facebook page: The Principle On their site: Opening Weekend And Moving Forward Update | The Principle -- they are adding a second theater in Chicago and negotiating its appearance in theaters in other cities.
I wouldn't bet on it -- one way or the other. The run at the first theater has ended, raking in a grand total of $9465. That's after $8657 in the opening weekend, leaving only $998 in it's last four days. Even assuming rather low ticket prices, that's only about 200 people who'd have seen it. Unlike previous releases by Rocky Mountain pictures, it doesn't have a built-in audience. Expelled had creationists. Dinesh D'Souza's Obama movie had conservatives. But there aren't all that many geocentrists.

ETA: Well, well, here's an actual date: http://www.theprinciplemovie.com/pri...go-november-7/
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Old 1st November 2014, 02:55 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yes, that's correct. In addition to being a geocentrist nutter, Robert Sungenis is also an anti-Semite and holocaust denier, although he's taken all that stuff down since his own church got after him for it.
So basically he isn't worth listening to.

Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The claim was that "if you flew in a straight line from the earth you would eventually end up back on earth", which is curvature on a grand scale of the universe, and not the curvature caused by gravity.
Wasn't this the plot of PaychecK?
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Old 1st November 2014, 08:52 PM   #48
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Robert Sungenis » The Private Lives of Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and Einstein claiming that those gentlemen weren't exactly very nice. Fortunately, science doesn't depend on their personalities.

Protecting Faith from Pseudoscience: A Review of The Principle | Truth & Charity
Quote:
Camille M. Carlisle is the science editor at Sky & Telescope magazine.

I was recently asked to review a new movie called The Principle, being released this month. The film, produced by Catholic theologian Robert Sungenis, uses science to raise the specter of geocentrism — the theory that Earth is at the physical center of the universe. With breathtaking cinematography and intellectual one-two punches, it paints a compelling argument that geocentrism might be right and the world’s scientists are willfully blind to the evidence.

Compelling, that is, if you know nothing about astrophysics.

If you do, you’ll soon see that the movie is a combination of science, bogus science, and conspiracy theory, tied up in a Gordian knot that would take much more than a blog to fully unravel.

The reason I’m writing about it in a Catholic blog is this: the movie has the potential to erode the scientific literacy of believers and convince nonbelievers that science and Christianity don’t mix.
She then criticized the movie for several scientific errors.

Even if the Earth is at a central spot, it could not be exactly at the Universe's center, because it moves around the Sun, the Sun moves around our Galaxy's center, and our Galaxy moves along with the other Local Group galaxies, and the Local Group is at the edge of a supercluster of galaxies.

John Hartnett has claimed that the Earth has a special position in the Universe because of certain cosmic structures, but Tom Bridgman has rebutted it in several blogs on this subject.

The movie also argues that dark matter and dark energy are "patches", efforts to save a failing paradigm with fudge factors.

The movie's creators also have some grudge against Albert Einstein.

Quote:
But my biggest complaint is the movie’s underlying philosophical argument. The movie claims that moving Earth from the physical center of everything implies that “man means nothing,” that if the universe doesn’t revolve around Earth, we aren’t special.

This dichotomy is a materialist lie. As Stephen Barr brilliantly lays out in his book Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, we need to separate scientific results from the philosophy that uses them to make its case.
I myself don't see why we have to have some cosmic significance. Would it really be heartbreaking if the Universe wasn't created with us in mind?

Response to Sky and Telescope Re: The Principle | The Principle, by Robert Sungenis.

RS has to invent some pseudophysical gibberish to explain how the Sun orbits the Earth, despite the Sun being much more massive. He also stated about geocentrism that it is the teaching of the Bible and the "tradition of the Catholic Church".
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Old 2nd November 2014, 12:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
I myself don't see why we have to have some cosmic significance. Would it really be heartbreaking if the Universe wasn't created with us in mind?
I don't see why it would be. A universe without life doesn't preclude the possibility of an intelligent designer any more than a universe with it requires one. And even if it were to turn out that this universe really was designed by a higher being who's to say that life is something that they made intentionally instead of arising independently?

Geocentricism and religion both hinge too much on earth and humanity being special, and both fail to see that we really are without having to make ourselves so.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 10:15 AM   #50
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Reading up on Mr. Sungenis...

Quote:
Sungenis's controversial views of the Jewish people and Judaism have been sharply criticized by fellow Catholics and by the Southern Poverty Law Center as being anti-semitic.[15][16][17][18] In 2002, he claimed it was a fact that no one had ever proven that 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust and that demographic statistics show no real difference in the number of Jews living before and after World War II. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, he also "repeated a series of ancient anti-Semitic canards" and later wrote about the involvement of Jews and Israel in a Zionist Satanic conspiracy aimed at Satan ruling the world.[17][18] Sungenis has also claimed that Israel orchestrated the JFK assassination in retaliation for the president's opposition to Israeli nuclear weapons.[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...ws_and_Judaism

Sounds like a swell guy.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 10:47 AM   #51
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I'm pretty sure the Pope is insufficiently Catholic for him.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 03:34 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm pretty sure the Pope is insufficiently Catholic for him.
I wouldn't be surprised. There are even some traditionalist Catholics who call themselves "sedevacantists", from sede vacante "with the seat empty" (Latin ablative case). Here, the seat is the pope's position. Sedevacantists consider the most recent popes illegitimate, though they disagree on who was the last legitimate pope. However, Robert Sungenis seems to reject sedevacantism.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 08:26 AM   #53
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The Principle Movie (@PrincipleMovie) | Twitter
The Principle on Facebook
The Principle Movie - YouTube
The PrincipleWP
Quote:
Much more to come as The Principle opens in Los Angeles and more cities in January. Take a minute and demand the movie in your town here
Demand It | The Principle
Quote:
Are we significant, or just a cosmic accident?
The videos include

▶ Copernican Principle - YouTube -- a woman appears in a hologram and briefly explains the Copernican principle. The makers of "The Principle" hired the special-effects company BUF to make the movie's special effects.

The cast:
  • Kate Mulgrew -- Narrator ***
  • Charissa Saverio -- Hologram
  • Lawrence M. Krauss -- interviewee: physicist ***
  • Michio Kaku -- interviewee: physicist ***
  • Robert Sungenis -- interviewee: producer, theologian, geocentrist
  • Max Tegmark -- interviewee: physicist ***
  • Robert Bennett -- interviewee: physicist, geocentrist
  • Martin Selbrede -- interviewee: theologian
  • John Hartnett -- interviewee: physicist, creationist
  • Julian Barbour -- interviewee: physicist ***
  • Bernard Carr -- interviewee: physicist
  • John Byl -- interviewee: theologian, physicist
  • George F.R. Ellis -- interviewee: physicist ***
  • Ron Hatch -- interviewee: physicist
*** -- people who have disavowed the movie
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Old 3rd December 2014, 08:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
*** -- people who have disavowed the movie
I wonder how badly they were edited for this pseudo-documentary.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 09:56 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
I wonder how badly they were edited for this pseudo-documentary.
Not just badly, but dishonestly.

The film has had two theatrical runs now, both of about a week. Box office results haven't been updated since November 13 and show US$17,000 plus in take. Sungenis's co-producer Rick DeLano is blaming pressure from a "prominent left-wing hate group" (probably SPLC) for the film being pulled from the first theater. They were trying to pump attendance at the second one by giving away free tickets, but it's closed there as well.

I've been following this pretty closely because of a thread at another forum (Ipetrich knows which one) where we've got a poster who seems to think this is the most important film ever made and keeps making inane statements about how prominent people in science and atheism (he's mentioned Phil Plait and Richard Dawkins, IIRC) are going to be picketing the theaters. The reality, of course, is that they don't even care.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 10:04 AM   #56
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As this movie is now available in its entirety on YouTube, I feel a large bag of popcorn coming on. I've not sat through a really good comedy for years.

I notice also that the YouTube comments section is open for the general public to register their opinions...
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Old 3rd December 2014, 05:21 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Cobra View Post
As this movie is now available in its entirety on YouTube, I feel a large bag of popcorn coming on. I've not sat through a really good comedy for years.

I notice also that the YouTube comments section is open for the general public to register their opinions...
Not finding that. Got a link?
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Old 4th December 2014, 07:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Cobra View Post
As this movie is now available in its entirety on YouTube, I feel a large bag of popcorn coming on. I've not sat through a really good comedy for years.

I notice also that the YouTube comments section is open for the general public to register their opinions...
When I search YouTube I find a file named "The Principle Movie Full" which is just a message linking to a pay-to-view streaming site.
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Old 4th December 2014, 12:39 PM   #59
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For the record, the vast majority of Catholic Publicataions are ridiculing this film and pointing out that Sungenis opinions represent nobody but his own.
Even a lot of the Traditionalist Catholics are diassociating themselves from Sungenis and his opinions.
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Old 4th December 2014, 04:42 PM   #60
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That probably has little to do with his "Earth is at a center of the universe" claims. Those claims, while thoroughly debunked hundreds of years ago, are acceptable. I think it's his anti-Semitic, anti-Hollocaust claims that the Catholics are weary about.
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Old 5th December 2014, 07:44 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
For the record, the vast majority of Catholic Publicataions are ridiculing this film and pointing out that Sungenis opinions represent nobody but his own.
Links, please?
Quote:
Even a lot of the Traditionalist Catholics are diassociating themselves from Sungenis and his opinions.
Like...

It must be noted that there is a bit of traditionalist-Catholic kookiness that Robert Sungenis does not endorse.

Sedevacantism.

From sede vacante (Latin: "with the seat empty" (ablative case)) when there is no longer a Pope, no one for his seat.

It's the belief that the most recent popes are not legitimate ones, though its advocates don't agree on who was the last legitimate pope.

I've found some online video of a debate that RS once had with a sedevacantist.

Last edited by lpetrich; 5th December 2014 at 07:45 AM. Reason: clarifying
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Old 9th December 2014, 02:04 PM   #62
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The Producer of The Principle, the Documentary Promoting Geocentrism, Finally Answered My Questions

Hemant Mehta gave his questions in full, and also producer Rick DeLano's answers in full.
Quote:
In, “The Principle,” many different viewpoints have contributed to this dialogue.

I am not a scientist, however, this is not an issue because there is no need to be a scientist to produce a film about a question involving science.

(HM question) If you really want to challenge the Copernican Principle, why not write a scientific paper?

Because of the latest findings in cosmology, some scientists have at least considered the idea that the earth may be in a favored or special place in the universe. ...

And keep in mind that represented in the film are wide ranging and varied viewpoints concerning the Copernican Principle.
So he was Just Asking Questions?

Hemant Mehta concludes:
Quote:
Much of what DeLano says about the voluntary participation of different scientists is in stark contrast to what they themselves have said. Krauss said that if he filmed anything for this film, it was under “false pretenses.” ...

DeLano managed to scoop up a couple of folks on the fringe of this issue and is now passing their views off as if they’re mainstream.
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Old 9th December 2014, 02:34 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
The Principle is now playing at a theater in Chicago, but it may soon be playing elsewhere also.

Executive Producer Robert Sungenis:

(Galileo Was Wrong: The Principle at "Galileo Was Wrong, The Church was Right", which advocates geocentrism)

Peter Woit speculated about the film some months back in The Principle | Not Even Wrong:

I’d wonder with the earth being somewhat spherically shaped, what direction wouldn’t align with it in one way or another?

If one combines The Principle with The Secret (perhaps as a drive in double feature) do you end up with the church was just right because they were positive thinkers (they were positive they were right).
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Old 9th December 2014, 02:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
It's been the Scientific consensus that Spacetime in our Universe is curved 4th dimensionally, ever since Einstein's theory of relativity, which has been validated numerous times by experimentation.

See this on curved space http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/...ty_curved.html

By all means prove that spacetime is not curved 4th dimensionally and win a Nobel prize for physics.
Pacal,

You are thinking of an extrinsic curvature, 3 dimensions curved in a fourth dimensional space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curvature


The curvature of general relativity is intrinsic (doesn’t require a dimension(s) that the others are curved in)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curvatu...nian_manifolds
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Last edited by The Man; 9th December 2014 at 02:47 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 9th December 2014, 05:21 PM   #65
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From the Wiki entry on the Copernican principle, respected/published/intelligent astrophysicist Michael Rowan-Robinson says: "It is evident that in the post-Copernican era of human history, no well-informed and rational person can imagine that Earth occupies a unique position in the universe."

Would he also say "And anyone who does imagine that can only be disturbed, delusional or both."?
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Old 10th December 2014, 11:07 AM   #66
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I have to wonder why they're bothering with this stunted, halting theatrical trickle. Why not sell it online? Do they have some religious objection to iTunes and the Google Play store?
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Old 11th December 2014, 05:17 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I have to wonder why they're bothering with this stunted, halting theatrical trickle. Why not sell it online? Do they have some religious objection to iTunes and the Google Play store?
They may have exhausted their production budget on special effects.

Also, this is not a very typical sort of movie, and theater managers may need some convincing before they will show it.
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Old 17th December 2014, 12:21 PM   #68
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The Sungenis fan on my other forum is saying that new theatrical engagements, two in California and one in Washington, will be happening in January, and that it's announced on Rick DeLano's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/rick.delano1?fref=ts

I'm not seeing it there, but it may well be because I don't have a Facebook account. Can someone who does see if you can find anything there?
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Old 17th December 2014, 12:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The Sungenis fan on my other forum is saying that new theatrical engagements, two in California and one in Washington, will be happening in January, and that it's announced on Rick DeLano's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/rick.delano1?fref=ts

I'm not seeing it there, but it may well be because I don't have a Facebook account. Can someone who does see if you can find anything there?
Here it is:
Quote:
Just got confirmation from Rocky Mountain Pictures.
"The Principle" will open an exclusive engagement at:
AMC Burbank
AMC Orange
AMC Spokane
Friday January 23, 2015.
To all of you who contacted me, thank you, and I will be emailing you details.
To all of you who haven't yet, PLEASE MESSAGE ME!
This opening weekend will be epic!
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Old 17th December 2014, 12:58 PM   #70
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Thanks! And thank FSM it's in Spokane, not in my part of Washington. Otherwise I might feel an obligation to go watch it and report back.
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Old 21st December 2014, 03:32 PM   #71
Jodie
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I don't think it means everything is revolving around earth, at least I didn't get that from these promo clips. Physics is a weak spot for me. What are they basing this on? Some measurement where earth is the starting point? Kind of like all roads lead to Rome?
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Old 21st December 2014, 05:00 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think it means everything is revolving around earth, at least I didn't get that from these promo clips. Physics is a weak spot for me. What are they basing this on? Some measurement where earth is the starting point? Kind of like all roads lead to Rome?
Probably has something to do with CMB distribution.

http://io9.com/5867033/why-is-the-un...-one-direction

Heck, even if the universe does have some directional features (like a tube as asserted in the article), that's a long way from going all non-Copernican on ourselves and thinking it is winking at us.
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Old 21st December 2014, 05:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think it means everything is revolving around earth, at least I didn't get that from these promo clips. Physics is a weak spot for me. What are they basing this on? Some measurement where earth is the starting point? Kind of like all roads lead to Rome?
The film's (hidden) premise is based entirely on Robert Sungenis's personal interpretation of the Bible. An interpretation that his own (Roman Catholic) church dropped many years ago. The physics are just being twisted to support his viewpoint. He's sly enough not to come right out and say the film is about geocentrism, but if you do even a minimal amount of searching you'll find that's what he believes. For instance, here:
http://galileowaswrong.blogspot.com/
where the film is promoted.

Note also that recent publicity around the film is coming from co-producer Rick DeLano, who is equally deluded as Sungenis but less notorious for anti-Semitism, holocaust denial, moon hoax belief, etc. That's just a coverup, IMHO.
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Old 21st December 2014, 06:33 PM   #74
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This is really unscientific of me but nature loves a spiral. Wouldn't that easily explain the photograph of the tilt if the universe was a twisted up helix? Now how you would come to the conclusion that we were dead center of the universe is beyond me.

Of course, I guess the guy who is promoting this wouldn't see the irony that he is proposing a principle of Hermeticism straight from The Emerald Tablet, "'That which is above is the same as that which is below'...
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Old 22nd December 2014, 06:31 AM   #75
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Interesting, so if we combine "nature loves a spiral" with 'nature abhors a vacuum' that must give nature all kinds of conflicting feelings about these...


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...cuum%20cleaner


Perhaps nature just don't give a flying handshake either way?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 11:21 AM   #76
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I think Dyson Vacuum's suck. Only a man would invent a bagless system where all the dust goes straight up your nostrils when you pull the canister out to empty it.

Anyway, I don't understand why it would mean we are special if we were in the center of the universe.

Last edited by Jodie; 23rd December 2014 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 12:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think Dyson Vacuum's suck. Only a man would invent a bagless system where all the dust goes straight up your nostrils when you pull the canister out to empty it.

Anyway, I don't understand why it would mean we are special if we were in the center of the universe.
Isn't the centre of the universe a super-massive black hole?

Now that's special - but not in a nice way...

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Old 23rd December 2014, 04:06 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Isn't the centre of the universe a super-massive black hole?
No. Rob Ford's no longer the mayor.
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Old 23rd December 2014, 09:20 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think Dyson Vacuum's suck.
You did that on purpose, didn't you?
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Old 23rd December 2014, 10:39 PM   #80
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I expect, no more than "Only a man...", and a good retort.

Though still, as stated by both of us, aligned in direction or centered (as most everything seems to be) don't make us special.
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