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Old 20th July 2015, 06:08 AM   #241
Mashuna
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I know how that works.

But can you imagine your own non-existence? Your own 'not experiencing things'. You cannot even imagine such an 'idea' of not being somewhere.
So, 'nothing' is not even a beginning of a scientific answer.
Why are you limiting science to what you can personally imagine? I can't imagine how dimensions above four might work, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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Old 20th July 2015, 06:30 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I know how that works.
Great. Supply your evidence for an eternal soul then.

Quote:
But can you imagine your own non-existence? Your own 'not experiencing things'. You cannot even imagine such an 'idea' of not being somewhere.
So, 'nothing' is not even a beginning of a scientific answer.
So?


Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Imagine that you are 'nowhere' during billions of years. (whatever that means...)
Suddenly you reïncarnate in a bird or some organism.
Evidence of reincarnation please.
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Old 20th July 2015, 06:42 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
No, I doesn't agree with your 'science' wich cannot handle an eternal soul in a brain. Your whole "scientific" idea about the brain would collapse.
An eternal soul is much more reasonable then 'nothing'. What is 'nothing'?

Re-incarnating in something else is the most rational evolution of our souls.
Overlooking, of course, the complete lack of any evidence for the existence of an "eternal soul". Prolly ought to start there.
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Old 20th July 2015, 06:47 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I know how that works.

But can you imagine your own non-existence? Your own 'not experiencing things'. You cannot even imagine such an 'idea' of not being somewhere.
So, 'nothing' is not even a beginning of a scientific answer.
What, precisely, does your imagination, or lack of it, have to do with reality?

Are only things that you can imagine, real?

Is every thing you can imagine, real?
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:06 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Imagine that you are 'nowhere' during billions of years. (whatever that means...)
Suddenly you reïncarnate in a bird or some organism.

...
What, according to you, is the difference between 'being nowhere during billions of years' and not existing?
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:12 AM   #246
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I am sorry, but the thread title says "A new argument pro NDE" and this involves playing day-care "imagination land" games? Marten is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:16 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Imagine that you are 'nowhere' during billions of years. (whatever that means...)
Suddenly you reïncarnate in a bird or some organism.

It's as if you reïncarnate the next moment, because you were unaware of these billions of years of 'being nowhere'.

So, reïncarnation is the most reasonable solution for this problem.

Nothingness is a non-scientific answer.

Perhaps you can essentially prove this using Bayesian statistics.
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:18 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Perhaps you can essentially prove this using Bayesian statistics.
That would tip the scales.
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:22 AM   #249
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Into the barrel.
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:22 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I have a new argument pro NDE's:

According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the tunnel, the light, the peaceful feeling, the words 'it's not your time yet' etcetera.
The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes etc. All must be involved.

Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences.
That is not true. The neural system of human beings have homologous patterns that express themselves as common patterns of brightness and shape in our ‘hallucinations’. The patterns seen in phosphenes are homologous in human beings, reflecting a common ancestry rather than an environmental analogy. By environmental analogy, I am including the possibility of supernatural manifestations.




Phosphenes have commonalities between human beings that are occasionally misinterpreted as supernatural occurrences.

http://psychedelic-information-theor...-Hallucination
‘Entoptic hallucination, geometric hallucinations, or phosphenes, are one of the most commonly reported visual effects of psychedelics. Phosphenes are a sensation of light caused by excitation of the retina by mechanical or electrical means. Pressure phosphenes can be created by applying pressure to the eyeballs through closed eyelids; flicker phosphenes are created in response to stroboscopic pulses of light; kinetic phosphenes are created in response to physical impact to the head, sometimes referred to as "seeing stars". (Fig. 1) Entoptic hallucinations are differentiated from eidetic (photographic) hallucinations in that they originate within the neural connections between the eye and cortex, as opposed to emerging within the cortex or midbrain. There is evidence that entoptic phosphene patterns have influenced human cultural and religious archetypes since 10,000 BCE.’


https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=phosphenes
‘A phosphene is a phenomenon characterized by the experience of seeing light without light actually entering the eye. The word phosphene comes from the Greek words phos (light) and phainein (to show). Phosphenes that are induced by movement or sound are often associated with optic neuritis.’


http://www.math.uh.edu/~dynamics/reprints/papers/nc.pdf
‘What geometric visual hallucinations tell us about the visual cortex

One possible location for their origin is provided by fMRI studies of visual imagery which suggest that V1 is activated when human subjects are instructed to inspect the fine details of an imagined visual object (Miyashita, 1995). In 1928 Klu ̈ver (1966) organized such images into four groups called form constants: (I) tunnels and funnels, (II) spirals, (III) lattices, including honeycombs and triangles, and (IV) cobwebs, all of which contain repeated geometric structures. Figure 1 shows their appearance in the visual field. In 1979 Ermentrout & Cowan provided a first account of a theory of the generation of such form constants (Ermentrout & Cowan, 1979). Here we develop and elaborate this theory in light of the anatomical and physiological data which has accumulated since then.’

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index....em-are-called/
‘A phosphene is characterized by perceiving some form of light when there is little or no light actually entering the eye, making it an entopic phenomenon (meaning the source of the phenomenon is within the eye itself). *Phosphenes are most commonly introduced by simply closing your eyes and rubbing them or*squeezing*them shut, tightly; *generally the harder you rub or squeeze, the more phosphenes you’ll see. *This pressure stimulates the cells of the retina and, thus, makes your brain think you are seeing light. *Specifically, Grüsser et al. demonstrated that pressure in the eye results in activation of retinal ganglion cells in a very similar way to how they activate as a response to light.
There are also several other ways phosphenes can be generated. *These include through: electrical stimulation; intense magnetic fields; hallucinogenic drugs (phosphenes not to be confused with*hallucinations, which are generated in the brain, not the eye); a blow to the head or a particularly severe sneeze where extra pressure is created in the eye on the retina and possible stimulation of*the visual cortex; low blood pressure, which can be experienced if you stand up really fast after you’ve been relaxing; exposure to radiation; meditation or extended visual sensory deprivation; various side effects from medical drugs; and certain diseases of the retina and nerves.’


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091790
‘…Phosphene perception was associated with a differential pattern of TMS-evoked brain potentials that started 160-200 ms after stimulation and encompassed a wide array of posterior areas. This pattern was differentiated from the TMS-evoked potential after stimulation of a control site. These findings suggest that conscious phosphene perception is not a local phenomenon, but arises only after extensive recurrent processing.’

Of course, there are common patterns generated by physical processes in the eyes themselves. These are called entropic patterns. These are not always the same as phosphenes but they have commonalities in all human beings. Thus, they also get misinterpreted.

Take for example entropic patterns (phosphenes). If you squeeze your eyes shut, you will see all sorts of geometric shapes and flashes of light which are similar to what other people see when they squeeze their eyes shut. You will see many of the phenomena that OBE patients experience, yet they are internal signals. Many disturbances make us see ‘phosphenes’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entoptic_phenomenon
‘Entoptic phenomena (from Greek ἐντός "within" and ὀπτικός "visual") are visual effects whose source is within the eye itself. (Occasionally, these are called entopic phenomena, which is probably a typographical mistake.)
In Helmholtz's words; "Under suitable conditions light falling on the eye may render visible certain objects within the eye itself. These perceptions are called entoptical.” …
Yet, there is enough commonality between the main entoptic phenomena that their physical origin is now well-understood.’

Phosphenes has been shown by many experimental studies to have commonalities in human beings. Correlation with physical neural patterns have been demonstrated. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that commonalities between hallucinations in improbable. Factual information has been presented in this posts.

The chances are rather high that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences. This has been shown by many experimental studies. Perhaps you want to refute any of the links I have posted.


I hope you address the fact that you are wrong rather than simply repeat the same false claim over and over again. Or ignoring the factual information that I have collected.

Rebutting the factual information with more facts would be alright. However, your intuition is not very reliable. I can not accept your opinions on the relative 'chances' as fact.
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:31 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Darwin123 View Post
… rather than simply repeat the same false claim over and over again. Or ignoring the factual information that I have collected.
This is what will happen. Database without end.
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Old 20th July 2015, 07:44 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
No, I doesn't agree with your 'science' wich cannot handle an eternal soul in a brain.
So you reject reality and substitute your own?

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
But can you imagine your own non-existence? Your own 'not experiencing things'. You cannot even imagine such an 'idea' of not being somewhere.
So what?
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Old 20th July 2015, 08:20 AM   #253
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I disagree vehemently with Maartenn100's assertion that an eternal soul is more reasonable than the lack thereof.

For starters, science has yet to find even a whiff of a clue that such things as souls actually exist.

Secondly, eternity is a long, long time. Hypothetically it would extend an indeterminate distance in space-time, past both the Big Bang and the heat death of the universe (and, in theory at least, transcend the problem of time supposedly starting at the Big Bang).

As such, it would be statistically extraordinarily unlikely that the lot of us here on this planet would be "new souls." After aeons wandering around the universe/multiverse, a significant number of us should have access to mass quantities of useful knowledge that would make Newton, Einstein and Hawking look like preschoolers fighting over a toy truck in a sandbox. Instead we have infestations of inanity and disrespect such as religiously-motivated violence, an unwillingness to solve no-brainers such as keeping us all adequately fed, clothed, housed and healthy, and the current slate of candidates attempting a run for POTUS.

One would think that a bunch of clever old souls stuffed into meat suits would not be so susceptible to indoctrination and flawed thinking, yet here we are -- Regularly getting ourselves and others killed for unfathomably stupid reasons, including getting trampled to death in big box store stampedes on Black Friday.

If there actually are such things as souls they don't seem to be particularly useful things to have, and I wouldn't expect them to be any more useful the next time around. Or the time after that. Or the time after that...
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Old 20th July 2015, 08:31 AM   #254
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The "new" argument appears to be a very old one in fact: Maarteen believes that there must be a soul. Science can't find any evidence of such a thing. So Maarteen concludes that science is wrong, or simply is not able to analyze these metaphysical things. I need hardly point out that this conclusion has been at the core of most religious dogmas for thousands of years.
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Old 3rd August 2015, 09:17 PM   #255
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I think for most things the scientific method works wonderfully but I'm not sure how you can definitively say that it is the last word on whether something exists or doesn't exist. There are ranges of light we couldn't see, or didn't know existed, until equipment was developed that could see that extra range. How would this be any different? We have a very finite range of perception.
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Old 4th August 2015, 04:09 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think for most things the scientific method works wonderfully but I'm not sure how you can definitively say that it is the last word on whether something exists or doesn't exist. There are ranges of light we couldn't see, or didn't know existed, until equipment was developed that could see that extra range. How would this be any different? We have a very finite range of perception.
Applying your argument to a "soul" —

No one has perceived such a thing with fidelity enough to shift it into scientific terms. It's all emotion, imagination and culture.

To say there are things we can't sense out there is true enough, but the tools of science have reach our senses lack. The entire EM-spectrum is known. The sub sub divisions of atoms are known. The weird Higgs and other fields are known.

There's no room, in scientific and mathematical principle, for a mustard seed.

The bottom line is our finite perception has magnified under science to illuminate so much of the unknown realm, that there remains no shade for faith's phantoms to haunt.

(I don't have the education to argue this point; I accept it on consensus, while I seek better understanding.)

What I see, as an amateur and a fool, is the repeating of empty phrases dipped in rich history, imposed into serious discussions about a world that is dangerous and to which we, the species, are dangerous in turn.

These empty phrases count "soul" and "God" and "spirit" and numberless xeroxes more; marshmallow armour in the dull battle for submission to predictably mundane powers. We do not have time any more to rebuff these cloying vapours. Serious work is ahead: survival. It is time to leave childish notions behind.
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Old 4th August 2015, 06:27 AM   #257
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There is at least proof that we can come out of nothing (our birth).
So, when we are billion of years 'nothing' after we died, chances are that we will be born again, out of nothing. Our birth, out of nothing, can happen again. Why not?

In our experience it will be as if we reïncarnate the next moment, because we were unaware of these billions of years being nothing.
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.

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Old 4th August 2015, 06:45 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
There is at least proof that we can come out of nothing (our birth).
So, when we are billion of years 'nothing' after we died, chances are that we will be born again, out of nothing. Our birth, out of nothing, can happen again. Why not?

In our experience it will be as if we reïncarnate the next moment, because we were unaware of these billions of years being nothing.
You seem to have nothing.
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Old 4th August 2015, 09:09 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
There is at least proof that we can come out of nothing (our birth).
Nope, we do not come out of nothing. We come out of some cells that multiply through intake of nutrition.

Quote:
So, when we are billion of years 'nothing' after we died, chances are that we will be born again, out of nothing.
Even if you had been right that we have come out of nothing, it still says nothing about our chances of being born again.

Quote:
In our experience it will be as if we reïncarnate the next moment, because we were unaware of these billions of years being nothing.
Nothing is, well, nothing! You cannot be nothing, even if you could be spawned from nothing like a Boltzmann brain.
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Old 4th August 2015, 09:12 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think for most things the scientific method works wonderfully but I'm not sure how you can definitively say that it is the last word on whether something exists or doesn't exist. There are ranges of light we couldn't see, or didn't know existed, until equipment was developed that could see that extra range. How would this be any different? We have a very finite range of perception.
Lovecraft beat you to that story

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colour_Out_of_Space

You will note that the physical effects could be felt.

Adding invisibility to footie doesn't help.

ETA: Ambrose Bierce:http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1323/

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Old 4th August 2015, 09:20 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
There is at least proof that we can come out of nothing (our birth).
So, when we are billion of years 'nothing' after we died, chances are that we will be born again, out of nothing. Our birth, out of nothing, can happen again. Why not?

In our experience it will be as if we reïncarnate the next moment, because we were unaware of these billions of years being nothing.
One should not call their mother nothing.
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Old 4th August 2015, 09:31 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Excellent! From there:
"There are sounds that we cannot hear. At either end of the scale are notes that stir no chord of that imperfect instrument, the human ear. They are too high or too grave. …

"As with sounds, so with colors. At each end of the solar spectrum the chemist can detect the presence of what are known as 'actinic' rays. They represent colors--integral colors in the composition of light--which we are unable to discern. The human eye is an imperfect instrument; its range is but a few octaves of the real 'chromatic scale.' I am not mad; there are colors that we cannot see.

"And, God help me! the Damned Thing is of such a color!"


The faces change, but the words stay the same.
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Old 4th August 2015, 09:56 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think for most things the scientific method works wonderfully but I'm not sure how you can definitively say that it is the last word on whether something exists or doesn't exist. There are ranges of light we couldn't see, or didn't know existed, until equipment was developed that could see that extra range. How would this be any different? We have a very finite range of perception.
The scientific method led to the discovery of the existence of infrared and ultraviolet, pretty definitively.

So many people would love to detect a soul, they already believe in it. Why are they so utterly unsuccessful in this?
Are they too stupid?
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Old 4th August 2015, 10:50 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Applying your argument to a "soul" —



There's no room, in scientific and mathematical principle, for a mustard seed.
I thought it was a well known fact that the observer affects what is being observed? How does that fit in with the mustard seed analogy?

How do you explain Pi? A number should be finite but Pi is infinite.
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Old 4th August 2015, 11:36 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I thought it was a well known fact that the observer affects what is being observed? How does that fit in with the mustard seed analogy?

How do you explain Pi? A number should be finite but Pi is infinite.
Those non sequiturs nearly gave me whiplash!

Quantum pi, ergo soul.

At least you keep it compact.
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Old 5th August 2015, 02:00 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I thought it was a well known fact that the observer affects what is being observed? How does that fit in with the mustard seed analogy?

How do you explain Pi? A number should be finite but Pi is infinite.
I wonder what your source for this claim is.
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Old 5th August 2015, 02:36 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I thought it was a well known fact that the observer affects what is being observed?
It's a well known oversimplification of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that causes much misunderstanding, actually.

Quote:
How do you explain Pi? A number should be finite but Pi is infinite.
Rational numbers are finite, irrational numbers are infinite. The word 'should' is inapplicable.
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Old 5th August 2015, 03:08 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Rational numbers are finite, irrational numbers are infinite. The word 'should' is inapplicable.
Somebody should have told the Pythagoreans that.
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The discovery of irrational numbers is said to have been shocking to the Pythagoreans, and Hippasus is supposed to have drowned at sea, apparently as a punishment from the gods for divulging this.
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Old 5th August 2015, 03:47 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I know how that works.

But can you imagine your own non-existence? Your own 'not experiencing things'. You cannot even imagine such an 'idea' of not being somewhere.
So, 'nothing' is not even a beginning of a scientific answer.
Old hat:
Now being dead is either of two things. For either it is like being nothing and the dead man has no perception of anything, or else, in accordance with the things that are said, it happens to be a sort of change and migration of the soul from the place here to another place.
And if in fact there is no perception, but it is like a steep in which the sleeper has no dream at all, death would be a wondrous gain. For I suppose that if someone had to select that night in which he slept so soundly that he did not even dream and had to compare the other nights and days of his own life with that night, and then had to say on consideration how many days and nights in his own life he has lived better and more pleasantly than that night, then I suppose that the Great King himself, not to mention some private man, would discover that they are easy to count in comparison with the other days and nights. So if death is something like this, I at least say it is a gain. For all time appears in this way indeed to be nothing more than one night.
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Old 5th August 2015, 04:00 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
There is at least proof that we can come out of nothing (our birth).
So, when we are billion of years 'nothing' after we died, chances are that we will be born again, out of nothing. Our birth, out of nothing, can happen again. Why not?

In our experience it will be as if we reïncarnate the next moment, because we were unaware of these billions of years being nothing.
True story: my oven/microwave combo broke down this weekend. Do you think it'll come back as a different household appliance? And how could I tell the difference between a vacuum cleaner that used to be an oven and a brand new one?
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Old 5th August 2015, 04:11 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
There is at least proof that we can come out of nothing (our birth).
We didn't came out of nothing. Our mothers ate food. Part of this food was used to help development of fetuses that came to be us. Your claim that pregnancy break laws od thermodynamic is pretty hilarious and complete nonsense.

Let's be most charitable and assume you meant not our bodies, but ourself (minds). Well, I have bad news for you. Mind didn't came out of nothing; it is product of brain. No brain, no mind. There was nothing before brain was created and there will be nothing when brain ceases to function.
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:05 AM   #272
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with 'we' I mean: our conciousness. Not our bodies. We are not our bodies. We are our minds.
When your arm is numb, because it was lying in an akward position and the blood flow is interrupted, you are not 'in your arm' anymore. You don't feel anything in your arm = you are gone in that part of your body.
You are not your body.

The numbness of an arm shows us the difference between 'being there' or 'not being there'. Your arm is still there, but you are gone in that part of the body.

(my English is not my native language, so I don't know wether this is a good sentence).
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.

Last edited by Maartenn100; 5th August 2015 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:18 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You are not your body.
Then who is?
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:24 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
with 'we' I mean: our conciousness. Not our bodies. We are not our bodies. We are our minds.
And minds are what brains (in bodies) do — He says; again.

Quote:
When your arm is numb, because it was lying in an akward position and the blood flow is interrupted, you are not 'in your arm' anymore. You don't feel anything in your arm = you are gone in that part of your body.
You are not your body.
You never were in your arm. The nerves carry the senses from your arm to your, gasp!, mind. Block those nerves and your arm goes numb.

But I spend effort into a hostile void; do I not?

Quote:
(my English is not my native language, so I don't know wether this is a good sentence).
Your English is good enough to keep you rolling on; never showing the slightest deflection from your course.

Your English is good enough for you to insult us with this stubborn display of disinterest.

Your English is good enough to reveal your true motives. They shine through.
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:28 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
...
When your arm is numb, because it was lying in an akward position and the blood flow is interrupted, you are not 'in your arm' anymore. You don't feel anything in your arm = you are gone in that part of your body.
You are not your body.

The numbness of an arm shows us the difference between 'being there' or 'not being there'. Your arm is still there, but you are gone in that part of the body.
...
What if someone is decapitated, does the body still contain part of who he/she is?
And if so, what percentage of the person remains?
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:31 AM   #276
Maartenn100
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Your awareness, your feelings: that's you. You are not your body. That's not so difficult to understand, isn't it?
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:37 AM   #277
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If this mind is not physical, then how can it be 'blocked' from your arm by pinching some nerves? Wouldn't a transcendent awareness be able to overcome such limits and keep feeling the arm when you're sitting on it?
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:45 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You are not your body.
I'm gonna adopt the patented Slowvehicle approach:

Evidence?
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:47 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Your awareness, your feelings: that's you. You are not your body. That's not so difficult to understand, isn't it?
Not just the body but also all it's processes.
That's you.
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Old 5th August 2015, 09:56 AM   #280
Maartenn100
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If this mind is not physical, then how can it be 'blocked' from your arm by pinching some nerves? Wouldn't a transcendent awareness be able to overcome such limits and keep feeling the arm when you're sitting on it?
That's a good question. In my opinion: you are the flow of electrons. Maybe 'electromagnetic radiation'. I don't have all the answers of course.

Susan pocket wrote a book about it.
https://cdn.auckland.ac.nz/assets/ps...Hypothesis.pdf
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.
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