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Old 20th March 2017, 07:41 AM   #1
Shuca
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The Copper Wall Experiment

Hi there,
while reading about Energy healing I have find about the Copper Wall Experiment conducted by Dr. Elmer Green.
In the experiment he tried to find evidence of 'subtle human energy' by monitoring energy healers in a copper wall isolated room. In short, test subject would be placed in a room sealed with copper walls. Then they measured voltage of walls while test subject were sending 'energy'. It seems that some of the energy healers had some success by producing voltage surges which were much higher than average human electricity fluctuations, while 'normal' people couldn't produce the effect. You can find some of the info by Googling (I can't post links).
I couldn't find any independent verification of this experiment so all of this sounds to me like bunk. However, I would appreciate if somenone who has some technical knowledge about electricity, copper walls conductivity, human electricity to explain this stuff in more detail.
Thanks.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:16 AM   #2
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You can post links by replacing the . with dot. Most people will know what to do with them.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:28 AM   #3
Garrette
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I am no expert, but before trying to refute the claims, I would ask any proponent to demonstrate them. Elmer Green does nothing of the sort. The publications he has on it are interviews without details and an article (not a paper) in "Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine" back in 1991.

He has presented no academic paper on these even to less-than-scientific journals. As such, there is little reason to believe the claim. This is buttressed by the fact that no one -- not even Green himself -- replicated the event.

And not that it is necessary, but the interview I read (most of, not all) had near the beginning one of those huge red flags in that it indicated that Green believed Jung's collective unconsciousness to be an actual unconsciousness shared collectively as opposed to similar structures shared within individual unconsciousnesses. Such a misunderstanding does not bode well for his ability to accurately interpret other events.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:29 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Shuca View Post
Hi there,
while reading about Energy healing I have find about the Copper Wall Experiment conducted by Dr. Elmer Green.
In the experiment he tried to find evidence of 'subtle human energy' by monitoring energy healers in a copper wall isolated room. In short, test subject would be placed in a room sealed with copper walls. Then they measured voltage of walls while test subject were sending 'energy'. It seems that some of the energy healers had some success by producing voltage surges which were much higher than average human electricity fluctuations, while 'normal' people couldn't produce the effect. You can find some of the info by Googling (I can't post links).
I couldn't find any independent verification of this experiment so all of this sounds to me like bunk. However, I would appreciate if somenone who has some technical knowledge about electricity, copper walls conductivity, human electricity to explain this stuff in more detail.
Thanks.
Welcome to the Forum 'Shuca'.

I expect that the equipment that was being used is quite sensitive, and therefore they used a room sheathed in copper (and probably grounded) to protect the equipment from stray radio noise (see Faraday Cage).

Therefore, if the equipment did actually detect anything "much higher than average human electricity", then one could safely say that the detection was actually due to the human being tested as opposed to some outside influence screwing up the detection process.

However, there really is no such thing as a 'human energy healer', so I really do not expect that they would find anything conclusive in the testing even if the room was sheathed in copper ten feet thick that was well grounded.

I hope this helps.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I am no expert, but before trying to refute the claims, I would ask any proponent to demonstrate them. Elmer Green does nothing of the sort. The publications he has on it are interviews without details and an article (not a paper) in "Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine" back in 1991.

He has presented no academic paper on these even to less-than-scientific journals. As such, there is little reason to believe the claim. This is buttressed by the fact that no one -- not even Green himself -- replicated the event.

And not that it is necessary, but the interview I read (most of, not all) had near the beginning one of those huge red flags in that it indicated that Green believed Jung's collective unconsciousness to be an actual unconsciousness shared collectively as opposed to similar structures shared within individual unconsciousnesses. Such a misunderstanding does not bode well for his ability to accurately interpret other events.
"Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine" Founding president? Elmer Green. In fact Elmer Green was also a director and an editor of said publication throughout it's entire 21 year existence. He also wrote most of it's articles.

You can visit http://www.consciousnessandbiofeedback.org/ but, ooops, that's Elmer Green again. It claims to be "a project of the Cross-Cultural Studies Program, Inc. " Who might they be? Yup, Elmer Green again.

They also state there the following...
Quote:
The audio recordings of Elmer Green’s discussions which may be downloaded from this website have been recorded by the New-Old Wisdom (NOW) Group. Volunteers formed the NOW Group in 2005 for the purpose of recording and preserving discussions with Elmer about spirituality.
Who might be a member of this NOW group? Yup, Elmer Green.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:31 AM   #6
Garrette
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
"Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine" Founding president? Elmer Green. In fact Elmer Green was also a director and an editor of said publication throughout it's entire 21 year existence. He also wrote most of it's articles.

You can visit http://www.consciousnessandbiofeedback.org/ but, ooops, that's Elmer Green again. It claims to be "a project of the Cross-Cultural Studies Program, Inc. " Who might they be? Yup, Elmer Green again.

They also state there the following...

Who might be a member of this NOW group? Yup, Elmer Green.
Oh, my.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I am no expert, but before trying to refute the claims, I would ask any proponent to demonstrate them. Elmer Green does nothing of the sort. The publications he has on it are interviews without details and in "Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine" back in 1991.

He has presented no academic paper on these even to less-than-scientific journals. As such, there is little reason to believe the claim. This is buttressed by the fact that no one -- not even Green himself -- replicated the event.

And not that it is necessary, but the interview I read (most of, not all) had near the beginning one of those huge red flags in that it indicated that Green believed Jung's collective unconsciousness to be an actual unconsciousness shared collectively as opposed to similar structures shared within individual unconsciousnesses. Such a misunderstanding does not bode well for his ability to accurately interpret other events.
Yeah, I see that you have posted the article and interview with the doctor. That is the material I was thinking about. Some bio-energy proponents cite this work as a evidence for some kind of human-healing-energy. Where I live there is a whole lot of them
Anyway, I wanted to see their evidence, if there is any. It seems to me that the doctor made a hypothesis that human body produce eletricity charge while meditating and that the charge is a manifestation of that subtle human energy. To me that is not a valid claim as I couldn't find any scientific proof that meditation can really do that. And there is no proof that the energy, if even it could exist, would heal.
However, I was intersted with some of the results of the doctors work as I am not familiar of how copper walls or Faraday cage work. As it seems they had the healer group and normal group. And anomalous results were recorded in the healer group compared to the control group, quote from te article:
"In the 600 sessions conducted with regular subjects we observed interesting electric field perturbations on wall records, such as respiration cycles and heart beat, but no anomalous voltages were seen"
Whille the 'healer' group had as they say:
"On the other hand, several 'exceptional' subjects generated a number of body-potential surges higher than 60 volts"
So I got interested why voltage surges weren't recorded in the 'control' group. Where did the artefacts come from in the healer group and why they didn't have them in the control group?
However, it seems, as they claim in the document that the results weren't that impressive:
"We have noticed that the walls do not respond in identical ways to 'healer' efforts, and questions have been raised about how the 'energy' whatever its nature, is focussed."
I know that this is a typical pseudoscience experiment but I think it deserves to be explained as many people believe in this stuff.

Last edited by Shuca; 21st March 2017 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:22 AM   #8
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As there is no such thing as a 'healer' it's bollocks.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:24 AM   #9
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So it was the actual walls they had wired up?
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:49 AM   #10
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Nerve impulses work by an entirely different process than conduction of electricity in metal wires, one that involves depolarisation of an energy-maintained imbalance of sodium and potassium IONS across the membrane - as distinct from free, highly mobile electrons in a wire. Metal ions are close to the size of atoms, made even bigger by the presence of a hydration shell, and are dependent on the presence of water - a poor electrical conductor. So how can there be any kind of electrical signal from a human subject to the outside of the body, other than by non-physiological build-up of static electricity from wearing, say, silk pyjamas and brushing up against bed sheets?

It sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me, confusing real flesh and blood people with Star Wars' C-3PO...
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:39 AM   #11
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I would like to know what was actually measured here, and how. I think we can be quite certain that nobody put a pair of electrodes on a human subject and measured a steady 200V difference between them, which is the maximum voltage claimed in the article. (I've experienced a 240V difference between two parts of my body, BTW, and was lucky to survive the experience.) If they were measuring the voltage between the copper wall and ground, were they simply measuring normal static charges, which can easily reach kV levels so long as there's nothing to drain the (probably negligible) amount of charge involved? And if that's what they were measuring, as the article suggests, how did they shield out other possible effects, how did they deduce the voltage in the body of the subject from the voltage measured at the copper wall, and is there actually a shred of validity to the process by which they made any such deduction?

Unless something more rigorous gets published, this is simply too vague to be worth taking seriously.

Dave
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:05 AM   #12
Garrette
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Originally Posted by Shuca View Post
Yeah, I see that you have posted the article and interview with the doctor. That is the material I was thinking about. Some bio-energy proponents cite this work as a evidence for some kind of human-healing-energy. Where I live there is a whole lot of them
Anyway, I wanted to see their evidence, if there is any. It seems to me that the doctor made a hypothesis that human body produce eletricity charge while meditating and that the charge is a manifestation of that subtle human energy. To me that is not a valid claim as I couldn't find any scientific proof that meditation can really do that. And there is no proof that the energy, if even it could exist, would heal.
However, I was intersted with some of the results of the doctors work as I am not familiar of how copper walls or Faraday cage work. As it seems they had the healer group and normal group. And anomalous results were recorded in the healer group compared to the control group, quote from te article:
"In the 600 sessions conducted with regular subjects we observed interesting electric field perturbations on wall records, such as respiration cycles and heart beat, but no anomalous voltages were seen"
Whille the 'healer' group had as they say:
"On the other hand, several 'exceptional' subjects generated a number of body-potential surges higher than 60 volts"
So I got interested why voltage surges weren't recorded in the 'control' group. Where did the artefacts come from in the healer group and why they didn't have them in the control group?
However, it seems, as they claim in the document that the results weren't that impressive:
"We have noticed that the walls do not respond in identical ways to 'healer' efforts, and questions have been raised about how the 'energy' whatever its nature, is focussed."
I know that this is a typical pseudoscience experiment but I think it deserves to be explained as many people believe in this stuff.
You're falling into the trap. There is nothing to explain. There is a claim and a claim only. There is no paper outlining the experiment with all protocols. Nor is there any replication in over 25 years since the alleged experiment.

You are diving willingly into the rabbit hole down which there is no logic unless you step back and insist before engaging that the claim be both specified and supported. The claim here is neither, though it gives the appearance of both.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:15 AM   #13
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A fully enclosed room coated in copper would be a very effective Faraday Cage. Therefore the possibility of anything inside producing measurable electrical effects due to differential voltages on the outside would be nil. Absolutely nil.

Plus any electrical impulses applied would be dispersed across the copper sheath, so it would need only one connection point to a meter, not multiple.

As mentioned above, human nerve impulses are not cause by some internal current but rather chemical reactions. It is far more likely that the room acted as a giant radio aerial, and the metering picked up the local country & western station signal even just faintly. Thus the chances are zero of anything being caused by "subtle energies" or somesuch.

And really when you think about it, the whole notion of "subtle energies" is bollocks. They are supposedly measurable via electrical detection. It is fairly easy for even a school student to be able to measure exceptionally tiny electrical impulses quite easily. So these "energies" should really be easily detectable by now. But the results so far? Nothing.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:15 AM   #14
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I've had that. It's a pain in the arse, being a healer.

I had to get rid of one pair of plastic-soled shoes which intensified my 'healing energies' especially on nylon carpets and in dry weather. I could apply so much healing energy to grounded metalwork that I learned to press the elevator call button with a coin just to protect my fingertips from all the intense healing.

But it turned out the magic was all in my shoes, so when they went, my powers vanished.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I expect that the equipment that was being used is quite sensitive, and therefore they used a room sheathed in copper (and probably grounded) to protect the equipment from stray radio noise (see Faraday Cage).
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
A fully enclosed room coated in copper would be a very effective Faraday Cage. Therefore the possibility of anything inside producing measurable electrical effects due to differential voltages on the outside would be nil. Absolutely nil.
As far as I can see from an interview with Elmer Green, this is not correct. He appears to be describing a single copper wall, which is presumably connected to a voltmeter, with a person sitting facing it, insulated by glass blocks from the floor, facing true North (not, apparently, magnetic north), and with a bar magnet suspended above their head (for no other reason, I suspect, than to make it look even more sciencey to the ignorant and even more woosome to the knowledgeable). He's then deducing that voltage changes in the copper wall arise from electrical activity in the subject, and makes the rather absurd claim that static charges present are unlikely to be more than about 2V. How the wall is connected to or insulated from its surroundings isn't stated. One copper wall doth not a Faraday cage make.

Dave
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As far as I can see from an interview with Elmer Green, this is not correct. He appears to be describing a single copper wall, which is presumably connected to a voltmeter, with a person sitting facing it, insulated by glass blocks from the floor, facing true North (not, apparently, magnetic north), and with a bar magnet suspended above their head (for no other reason, I suspect, than to make it look even more sciencey to the ignorant and even more woosome to the knowledgeable). He's then deducing that voltage changes in the copper wall arise from electrical activity in the subject, and makes the rather absurd claim that static charges present are unlikely to be more than about 2V. How the wall is connected to or insulated from its surroundings isn't stated. One copper wall doth not a Faraday cage make.

Dave
Good point. It makes a giant aerial instead.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 01:24 AM   #17
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Guys, thanks for your opinions and explanations It's been helpful
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Old 22nd March 2017, 07:31 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I would like to know what was actually measured here, and how. I think we can be quite certain that nobody put a pair of electrodes on a human subject and measured a steady 200V difference between them, which is the maximum voltage claimed in the article. (I've experienced a 240V difference between two parts of my body, BTW, and was lucky to survive the experience.) If they were measuring the voltage between the copper wall and ground, were they simply measuring normal static charges, which can easily reach kV levels so long as there's nothing to drain the (probably negligible) amount of charge involved? And if that's what they were measuring, as the article suggests, how did they shield out other possible effects, how did they deduce the voltage in the body of the subject from the voltage measured at the copper wall, and is there actually a shred of validity to the process by which they made any such deduction?

Unless something more rigorous gets published, this is simply too vague to be worth taking seriously.

Dave
My record is 5,000 V. My cousin survived 40,000 V. But that is irrelevant. 200 V is sufficient to kill you unless one is getting into static charges. Even then, one can feel the effects of such a charge.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 10:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Welcome to the Forum 'Shuca'.

I expect that the equipment that was being used is quite sensitive, and therefore they used a room sheathed in copper (and probably grounded) to protect the equipment from stray radio noise (see Faraday Cage).

Therefore, if the equipment did actually detect anything "much higher than average human electricity", then one could safely say that the detection was actually due to the human being tested as opposed to some outside influence screwing up the detection process.

However, there really is no such thing as a 'human energy healer', so I really do not expect that they would find anything conclusive in the testing even if the room was sheathed in copper ten feet thick that was well grounded.

I hope this helps.
It would be less expensive to use aluminum, especially if making the vessel ten feet thick. May I also suggest a hollow sphere rather than cubic. I would again be less expensive in material.
Going further though, the vessel and experiment should take place in a remote area far from external electrical fields. In fact possibly the better bet old be deep underground. Though of course this now increases expenses.


That said, yes, I also believe that nothing conclusive would result
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Old 23rd March 2017, 10:35 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
My record is 5,000 V. My cousin survived 40,000 V. But that is irrelevant. 200 V is sufficient to kill you unless one is getting into static charges. Even then, one can feel the effects of such a charge.
All depends on the current capacity of the source.
200,000 Vdc from something capable of delivering only 1 microamp might cause a few hairs to rise.

Also the damage to a human very much depends on skin conductivity. Dry skin and the current may well simply travel only on the skin itself and not penetrate to cause internal damage. Well moisturizer skin will allow. A current path through the body.(it's all nice and wet and salty on the inside.)
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Old 24th March 2017, 01:35 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
All depends on the current capacity of the source.
200,000 Vdc from something capable of delivering only 1 microamp might cause a few hairs to rise.
As my old physics teacher used to say, it's the volts that jolts, but the mills that kills.

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Old 25th March 2017, 04:20 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I've had that. It's a pain in the arse, being a healer.
...
But it turned out the magic was all in my shoes, so when they went, my powers vanished.
Seems to me you were merely a heeler.
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Old 26th March 2017, 11:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Seems to me you were merely a heeler.


Well, bless my sole, you're right.
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Old 27th March 2017, 12:35 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, bless my sole, you're right.
Now you're just being ped antic!
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Old 28th March 2017, 04:31 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, bless my sole, you're right.
I think there's a 12 step program to becoming a heeler.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
I think there's a 12 step program to becoming a heeler.
12 steps? I'm afraid I'm too much of a loafer. Don't tease me for my sloth, it's unkind to moccasin.

#allweek
#veal
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