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17th March 2009, 04:57 AM | #361 |
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I personally like the one where they claim the planes should've bounced off the buildings better. But smoke generators is definitely up there.
Once again, I'm impressed with the level of research shown to back up claims "I watched the video a hunnerd times, I don't need to do no stinkin' maths". |
17th March 2009, 07:09 AM | #362 |
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None of which mentions smoke generators. A point you keep blatantly avoiding.
More than one firefighter made a similar claim. Are they all "exaggerating or mistaken"? The testimony linked about contradicts this statement. bill, you're on record claiming the FDNY's account of 9/11 cannot be trusted, and you've made some very strong implications that they are perhaps keeping silent about certain suspicious aspects of it. I'll ask you again the question you keep avoiding: What reason do you have to think the FDNY might be untruthful, or conspicuously silent, regarding what they experienced on 9/11? |
17th March 2009, 08:27 AM | #363 |
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If the firefighters did not mention the smoke generators perhaps they did not see them. DO I see one though, in the opening scene of the attached video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lrTy5mrZY Where am I on record saying that the FDNY's acccount cannot be trusted ? In our exchanges I have not used the phrase ''conspicuously silent' nor the word 'untruthful'. Are you sure you have the right poster ? |
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17th March 2009, 08:30 AM | #364 |
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That would have really sucked if the perps manged to put the [delightfully loony] smoke generators on the wrong floor. Seriously, how stupid would it have looked if smoke was billowing out of the building 20 floors below the plane impacts?
I have to hand it to those NOW work crews and planners. |
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17th March 2009, 08:36 AM | #365 |
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Yea, I think I'm done with smoke generators.
For future reference, will people like bill be referred to as no-smokers, or non-smokers? |
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17th March 2009, 08:41 AM | #366 |
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17th March 2009, 09:42 AM | #367 |
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Evidence based on what one person claims to see in a video that hundreds of eyewitnesses failed to discern is less than compelling.
Words you've used in regards to FDNY testimony: doubt 1. To be undecided or skeptical about. 2. To tend to disbelieve; distrust. 3. To regard as unlikely. exaggerate 1. to regard or represent as greater than is true. 2. to make greater or more noticeable. So I'll ask again: What reason do you have to be distrustful of the testimony of the FDNY in regards to their experiences on 9/11? |
17th March 2009, 09:55 AM | #368 |
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what's with all the youtube references by Bob? could he actually point to WRITTEN documentation instead of looking at low grade, low res, highly pixelated and cobbled together Youtube videos?
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17th March 2009, 10:29 AM | #369 |
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To say that I am skeptical of the account of one or more firemen who said 'WTC7 was fully involved in fire, from ground to ceiling, all 47 floors '' is not surprising in that this statement deviates markedly from the visual record. To say therefore that the firemen were exaggerating or were mistaken is perfectly reasonable in this context and in no way implies distrust.
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17th March 2009, 10:32 AM | #370 |
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Pure semantics!
You claim there were smoke generators and when it is pointed out that no FF mentions such devices you say that they may not have seen them. That brands their accounts untrustworthy whether you are accusing them of deliberatly lieing or of simply being mistaken. In fact you distrust the FF accounts of major fires in WTC 7, you distrust the FF accounts that the building was in danger of collapsing and you distrust the FF accounts that do not include your contention that there was more smoke than should have been generated by the fires. In short you are discounting the FF accounts pretty much in their entireity and accepting only the minor, obvious point that there was fire in the building. Thus by your own words you have demonstrated, though not actually come out and been honest about stating it directly, that you find the statements made by the FF's to be suspect, untrustworthy and lacking of mention of aspects that you believe are obvious. |
17th March 2009, 10:35 AM | #371 |
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17th March 2009, 11:01 AM | #372 |
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Multiple firefighters made statements that describe WTC7 as fully involved in fire. I provided you with a link proving this. If you do not trust this statement from one firefighter, then you must not trust it from any of the others.
You claim the visual evidence does not match FDNY testimony. Instead of coming to the conlusion that the video evidence is incomplete, you have instead called into question the veracity of the FDNY's testimony. I would like to know why. What reason do you have to mistrust the testimony of the FDNY regarding their experiences on 9/11? |
17th March 2009, 11:13 AM | #373 |
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I am not willing to go round and round on this subject. You had a problem with what I said and I demonstrated that you were making inaccurate assumptions that were not not borne out by my written words. Now you wish to broaden the argument into an area that I am not willing to explore at this time.
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17th March 2009, 11:43 AM | #374 |
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Your intellectual cowardice is noted.
However, this does not change what you've already stated. You've accused the FDNY of giving doubtful and exaggerated testimony, yet refuse to explain your reasons for believing this, and are now tucking tail and running away. Your completey irrational distrust of FDNY testimony coupled with your hesitancy to explain why you distrust it can only lead one to the conclusion that you suspect FDNY of some level of complicity in the 9/11 attacks, yet lack the courage to admit it. |
17th March 2009, 12:45 PM | #375 |
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17th March 2009, 01:10 PM | #376 |
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17th March 2009, 01:16 PM | #377 |
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17th March 2009, 01:17 PM | #378 |
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17th March 2009, 01:21 PM | #379 |
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17th March 2009, 01:48 PM | #380 |
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When dealing with intellectual cowards who refuses to answer questions they find uncomfortable or inconvenient, one manages as best they can.
You characterized FDNY testimony as doubtful and exaggerated. I'd be happy to quote you doing so. I'm not sure what you hope to gain by pretending you didn't. |
17th March 2009, 01:51 PM | #381 |
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17th March 2009, 02:02 PM | #382 |
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Smoke generators, for when fire just isn't enough! Bill you either need glasses or Psychiatric help. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously with such a preposterous idea that you aren't willing to back up?
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17th March 2009, 02:03 PM | #383 |
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Certainly: Several firefighters made similar claims. Therefore, you must have your "doubts" about their testimony as well, and assume they were "exaggerating". Do you need me to again provide the definitions for the words "doubt" and "exaggerate", or are you able to determine on your own that they are synonymous with "distrust" and "falsify"? |
17th March 2009, 02:05 PM | #384 |
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seeing as "smoke" generators dont really produce "smoke" , bill may want to brush up on what actually those generators actually produce.
and the "size" of the generator needed to produce the type of REAL smoke, would be on the order of several industrial size refrigerator sized units. Now, tell me, of the 1000 or so people who worked in WTC 7, no one noticed these huge "mystery" machine like items being installed on their floors over the weeks prior to 9/11 or does BILL really think they were all being installed on 9/11 while the building was on fire? this is as preposterous as the "demolition" theory for WTC 7 ETA: website: http://www.smokemachines.net/full-sm...-listing.shtml The site is the "biggest" supplier of smoke machines, and I dont see anything listed that would be needed to create the type of "effect" as seen on 9/11. Most of them are VERY small units (mostly portable, can be carried by hand). you'd need thousands of such units in order to create the magnitude of smoke seen on 9/11. Most units are water based and oil based, some are dry ice. some units are self-made (there are instructions to building one of your own), but again, they would leave behind EVIDENCE, as seen of this type of smoke generator, used for a MOVIE SET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smoke_Machine.jpg Again, even at this size, you'd need at least a few hundred to create the type of effect seen on 9/11 and last over 7 hours. |
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17th March 2009, 02:17 PM | #385 |
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17th March 2009, 02:21 PM | #386 |
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I thought that to be very understated and reasonable and in no way an indictment of the fireman involved. The video record and most of the anecdotal reporting shows relatively little fire in WTC7 at any point. So when he says '' WTC7 was FULLY involved in fire from ground to ceiling, all 47 floors' I said he was either exaggerating or mistaken. I was absolutely correct in doing so. So you can either agree with me (with the implied apology) or you can agree with the fireman that '' WTC7 was FULLY involved in fire, from ground to ceiling, all 47 floors ''.
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17th March 2009, 03:01 PM | #387 |
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Point 1: More than one firefighter made claims of WTC7 being fully involved. Do I believe them over you? Absolutely. For many obvious reasons.
Point 2: The issue was whether or not you characterized FDNY testimony as untrustworthy. You did, and I proved it. It doesn't matter how "understated" it was, you are effectively calling these firefighters liars. |
17th March 2009, 03:03 PM | #388 |
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I think bill is having a little joke
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17th March 2009, 03:18 PM | #389 |
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bill,
Just enjoying you sway everyone over to your side due to your compelling arguments and unassailable hard evidence. Once we've wrapped up "smoke generators", perhaps we can move on to: 1. Silent explosives 2. Your stated conviction that Les Robertson was convinced that jet planes would bounce off of the building, and that this is why he did not consider the consequences of fuel and fires. 3. The molecular disruption of the walls that was necessary to get the plane thru them. 4. Frank de Martini's structural screen netting. 5. The hundreds of government shills that were pre-planted on the streets of NYC to begin crafting the official CT immediately. 6. Your stated conclusion that ae911 completely debunked the NIST WTC7 reports within hours of its release. 7. Your conclusion that the interruption of the TV signals when the plane hit the South Tower was evidence of the signal being manipulated. 8. Your stated conclusion that the gubbamint broke into the house of one of the passenger's next of kin, planted her personal documents, used voice morphing technology to send that information, for who knows what reason. All backed up by your incredible, Sherlock Holmesian powers, that somehow left you, seven years after an event that you discuss for many hours per day, unable to find WTC7 on a map. And had you adamantly insisting that WTC7 was really the Winter Gardens. Or did you prefer me "monosyllabic". tom |
17th March 2009, 03:22 PM | #390 |
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1.So then I can take it that Johnny Karate states that he is in full agreement with the fireman that ' WTC7 was FULLY involved in fire,from ground to ceiling, all 47 floors ' I'll start a file. You never know when information like that might be important. Please advise by return If this is not so.
2. Exaggerating or being mistaken are not felonies or misdemeanours. They are simle human failings or weaknesses. Suggesting that someone is exaggerating or is mistaken is therefore only a simle criticism and has nothing to do with lying. |
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17th March 2009, 03:30 PM | #391 |
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Glenn,
Bill is a little joke. You misunderstand him if you think that he cares about being wrong. Or being embarrassed. Some of us that have crossed swords with him for quite a while know that all of the issues that I list above - and far more - are part of his standard repertoire. He will, after being drubbed soundly, return in a few months and happily bring "smoke generators" back into any discussion. And he will then claim that "all you hot shots at JREF were unable to disprove his smoke generator theory" and that "he really whipped your collective butts in the argument". We are at a loss as to how someone could be so resolutely senseless. And immune to the embarrassment of making a humiliating spectacle of himself in public. The only speculations that we've been able to come up with is that a) this is the only opportunity that this high school drop-out has to poke at engineers & scientists. And imagine that he's whippin' em good. b) he's moving 9-11 merchandise. Nothing else makes much sense. tom |
17th March 2009, 03:35 PM | #392 |
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17th March 2009, 03:37 PM | #393 |
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con/vec/tion 3 syllables
You asked the question what would be creating the smoke pouring out of the broken windows. The short answer is convection, which is a large step more in explanation than your contention that there just has to be a smoke generator (other than the actual offices fires). Will you now tell us how it is that you determine that there is too much smoke for the fires that were occuring in WTC 7. As said above, if your calculation is a strictly "my eyes are telling me this" then just say so. The record of what fires were burning is well docuemented in the WTC 7 report. Have you bothered to read it? Each of the several fires burning in WTC 7 would have been considered major fires in and of themselves and the fires in the vicinity of the initial failure were the largest of those. |
17th March 2009, 03:37 PM | #394 |
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bill,
Ahh, that would be like suggesting that Barry Jennings & Willie Rodriguez were simply mistaken ... Something that you were completely unwilling to distinguish from accusations of lying when others (including me) made them. Since it didn't fit your immediate agenda at that time. tk |
17th March 2009, 03:58 PM | #395 |
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Fixed that for you.
Exaggerating has everything to with lying, as an exaggeration is a lie. I'd be happy to give you the definition of the word again. You want to claim the words of these firefighters are untrue, without claiming the firefighters are being untruthful. This is called cognitive dissonance, a trait shared by most Truthers. |
17th March 2009, 04:05 PM | #396 |
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On the syllables; I was using literary licence. You were being narrowly literal.
On the smoke generator; This is unprovable and is only a curiousity in debating terms.. It's main use to the Truth Community will be televisual. Allow the TV audience to watch the clip and answer multiple choice questions. 1.Is this smoke being blown out of a window ? 2. Is this a smoke-generator ? On NIST. I use NIST for occasional reference, but since David Chandler busted them on the free-fall thing I don't trust one single word they say. Always emember that the starting point of science is observation. Everything else comes after that. |
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17th March 2009, 04:15 PM | #397 |
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911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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17th March 2009, 04:18 PM | #398 |
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Consent by silence. I will generate the file.
I claim the the fireman overtated he case as he evidently did. I also suggested that he might have made a mistake. This is obviously a fair and reasonable criticism and not an accusation of him being a liar. I have a feeling that Shills know much more CD than Truthers do. |
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17th March 2009, 04:30 PM | #399 |
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17th March 2009, 04:34 PM | #400 |
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