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29th June 2011, 09:40 AM | #1 |
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Are 9/11 conspiracies in fact motivated by hatred of the US?
I've noticed many of the 9/11 conpsiracy zealots that live inside and outside of the US usually include within their 9/11 conspiracies an editorial on how much they despise the US, and that's often topped off with slam on the Jews and Isreal.
I think at this point hating America is what drives the 9/11 Truther cult. Since they think so many Americans would blindly be a part of a coverup, their opnion of Americans are not that high...Truthers think the heroic NYFD lied, and some Truthers have suggested the firemen planted explosives. I think many of these USA bashing 9/11 Truthers are engaging in projection- their hatred of the US is such that if they had the power, they would commit mass murder on the scale of 9/11, so they only assume everyone else would share their sentiments. |
29th June 2011, 09:43 AM | #2 |
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Hatred of America is probably a big part of it. I'd submit that virtually all of these people have some disconnect with society, and joining this cult gives them the sense of family they are missing in real life.
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29th June 2011, 10:09 AM | #3 |
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Once again we have the problem of what constitutes a '9/11 Truther'. Are we talking about someone with confusion about what happened on 9/11 answering a phone survey? Or do you mean the kind of We Are Change demonstrators that I'm always talking about? And keep in mind that for some, CTing appers the result of mental illness. The problem is the growing difficulty of telling the insane ones from advocates of political conspiracy. But in fact, I have no experience that is counter to this. The shape of CT in the USA is an increasing unification around the idea of an American national government working together with global forces to destroy American society.
Projection? Mass murder? This is a more complicated problem and really does address the question of which CTers you mean. As a group, active CTers that I have encountered are a pathetic lot. I doubt more than a handful of them are capable of anything as interesting as violence. You get Truthers here and elsewhere posting about violence once they have turned that silent majority and are leading them in their brave struggle against whoever. But this ideation of violence is about as real as the kind you get from watching Rambo or playing video games. It's just kids with a sad life yelling their frustration over the Internet. |
29th June 2011, 10:42 AM | #4 |
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I think it's a tiny bit more complicated than that. My take is this: For those who lean towards the grandoise visions (i.e. the "Big Picture" conspiracy peddlers, not the truthers who only take the trouble to geek out on details and don't give larger issues that much thought), they've got some sort of idealized vision of America in their heads. And they take their perceptions of how the real American society works (emphasis: Their perceptions; I'd argue that many of those perceptions are distorted and inaccurate) and use that as a starting point. It's sort of a "We're here, and there's where we should be, Truthering is how I help everyone get there".
So in the end, the subgroup I'm talking about ends up loving this idealized vision of America, and end up hating this equally fictional yet purported to be real facsimile they've constructed. Either way, they're not looking at the real world. I build this thought partially through my interactions here and elsewhere, and partially in what I read. Currently, I'm digesting Jonathan Kay's book Among the Truthers, and really, that's done nothing but buttress my opinion so far. Now, in all honestly, I haven't rigorously studied truthers. So this theory of mine may not be acurate. After all, it's built merely on my perceptions so far. But it's at least somewhat testable a hypothesis. And I'd argue I'm on to something at least, even if it's just a percentage of truthers, because time and time again, I perceive that a lot of the railing they do is because of this mindset that there is a supposedly better, supposedly more "just" (from their point of view) vision of this country in their grasp. And it's achievable if only they could convince everyone to accept their perceptions as they did and reject those nasty "debunkers" attempt to (from their point of view) obsfucate the reality. There is it. I've put it out there to stand on it's own or fail due to inherent problems. Have at it; critiques welcome, even if I ultimately don't end up agreeing with them. |
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29th June 2011, 10:52 AM | #5 |
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I doubt hatred of the US motivates many truthers. Most just find it psychologically comforting to believe in conspiracies because it: 1) means that there is some order in the world and it isn't all just random chaos; and 2) absolves the ego of fault (because losing doesn't matter if there was no possible chance one could win).
It just feels better to believe in conspiracies. And some people value that over the truth. |
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29th June 2011, 11:08 AM | #6 |
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I'd agree with this.
There's a lunatic over at ATS - BSBRAY11 - that has admitted that he was at one time homeless while in college. The obvious lack of a social life/structure in this dude's life points to a need to belong SOMEWHERE. IMHO, he's been damaged by this experience and feels like he can fit in with other twoofs, so that's what he clings to, regardless of the insanity of it all......... |
29th June 2011, 11:18 AM | #7 |
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If truther thinking is now coming from foreign countries, then it makes me feel better about America's place in the intellectual hierarchy.
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29th June 2011, 11:25 AM | #8 |
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Another boost CTer's get from it is that it elevates their place in the world by bringing down those who actually contribute something material to society. These so-called "productive members of society" are either evil, or incompetent, or spineless sheeple. The only truly noble people in the world are those brave few willing to stare The Truth in the face.
Plus, you can be an instant expert at anything just by memorizing a few talking points from truther websites! |
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29th June 2011, 11:43 AM | #9 |
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Is real? No, it isn't. Just another propaganda thread by Titanic Explorer. Fascism will not prevail and the US will get back to their stated objectives, which are actually admired around the world. The scum is in the process of self-destruction. Which is a pleasure to witness. |
29th June 2011, 11:51 AM | #10 |
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29th June 2011, 11:53 AM | #11 |
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29th June 2011, 12:00 PM | #12 |
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I've seen first hand your tacit support of some of the most ludicrous and laughable of theories presented on this forum concerning 9-11 and it's inside-jobby-jobness, all simply based on your ideological viewpoint, so I tend to read posts like this with a grain of salt.
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29th June 2011, 12:01 PM | #13 |
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29th June 2011, 12:24 PM | #14 |
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I am a truther and I do not hate America. Quite the contrary, in every generation of my family, there are those who fought, bled and in some cases died, for it.
However, this country has a history of lies and fabrications for all kinds of political and policy goals. Our founders warned us and it is quite patriotic to question our government. That is especially true for 9/11 where the costs have been so high. |
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29th June 2011, 12:49 PM | #15 |
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Quote:
It's all well and good to question the government, but in cases where it's blatantly obvious that the government wasn't involved though..... truthers need to settle down. |
29th June 2011, 01:46 PM | #16 |
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Most of the garbage that the Twoof movement spews about the Pentagon originated with a dishonorably discharge, lying sack of crap French scumbag who hates America because he thinks americans screwed up his military career, and from a Nazi who is now a fugitive from justice and is not known to have ever written an objective "news" article without misrepresenting or misunderstanding or misapplying data.
So I have to go along with the original premise of this thread. |
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29th June 2011, 02:18 PM | #17 |
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29th June 2011, 02:36 PM | #18 |
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You think my thread is 'another propaganda thread?' LOL Every Truther I have encountered in person and online had a long laundry list of things they despised about the USA. They have distain for the US military, the US government, the NYFD and NYPD, not to mention the American people. The Truther America bashers are on the fringes of both the right and the left. It usually comes down to their distain for US support for Israel, and that morphs into anti-semitism. Do you feel I am tarnishing the character of your Truther friends? |
29th June 2011, 02:39 PM | #19 |
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum |
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29th June 2011, 02:45 PM | #20 |
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum |
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29th June 2011, 02:50 PM | #21 |
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29th June 2011, 02:57 PM | #22 |
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29th June 2011, 03:19 PM | #23 |
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29th June 2011, 03:20 PM | #24 |
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29th June 2011, 03:21 PM | #25 |
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Bunel hates America, and he deliberately lied about his credentials and about what we were loking at. any fire fighter knows that he is a lying sack of crap, not delusional. He goes into too much acurate detail to set up his lies, and too carefully crafts his fake credentials as an artillery officer and an expert in fire fighting.
Bollyn is a Nazi. 'Nuff said. |
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29th June 2011, 03:50 PM | #26 |
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There's also that ever present hatred of The Man.
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29th June 2011, 07:59 PM | #27 |
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I'm a long time lurker of this site but today I decided to jump on board after reading this comment above and the overall topic of the OP. I have always been fascinated with the psychology of the truth movement more so than the run of the mill minutia of the truth movement claims. Those claims are easily dismissed by the hundreds of threads previously posted throughout the years and it has become a nit-pick fest of the details of the Official Story by the truthers with still no substantive or consistent theory of their own as to what they think happened on 9/11. It's easy to see why they have no overall cognitive theory about that terrible day because their theories simply break down under their own weight as they reach roadblock after roadblock and the number of conspirators required becomes larger and larger to a point where thousands of people must be involved in the cover up. They fail miserably when asked to provide these overall theories and become quite defensive whenever they are asked to do so, (i.e. JAQing off and "we need a new investigation".) The irrational acceptance of their version of the "truth" is a dogma. The truth movement has every component of a cult and these people are doomed to their notions until possibly one day they have an epiphany and realize they are being lied to and lying to themselves. I credit the great work here by many of the posters on JREF and the websites set up by Mark Roberts and many others for drawing many people out of this terrible existance and they should be applauded for helping many people see the error of their ways.
Back to the original topic by the OP. There is simply a disconnect along the way through the thought process of truthers to determine what is the rational alternative as to what happened on 9/11. Where does this disconnect come from is what I wonder? This disconnect is what interests me the most about the truth movement. The truth movement's logic and motivations are to this day fascinating to observe and quite disturbing at times as well. Ultimately I believe the leading cause of this disconnect is that many followers of the truth movement have preconceived attitudes or perceptions about the government, whether it was taught to them at an early age or something along the way swayed them toward this predisposition. These types of people are sucked into anything, the truth movement being one of many, that justifies their own belief system that the government is an oppressive and cunning juggernaut which bowls over anyone or anything that stands in its way to reach its goals. This type of predisposed mentality compris the majority of the truth movement members that I have either read their views or come in contact with. The remaining truth movement members are a wide variety of types which consist of disillusioned youth, mentally ill, failed professionals, or socially repressed individuals, which require a need to make them feel more important. To answer the question by the OP I would say "hatred" is a strong word, however some truthers do actually hate the government, but overall I would describle it as a "misguided distrust". The quote above by BCR bothered me to the point of finally registering to this forum and saying my peace. BCR's overall quote and the part which I highlighted, "Our founders warned us and it is quite patriotic to question our government", sum a lot up for me as far as my disdain for the truth movement. This person, BCR, is shielding himself under an umbrella of being a "patriot". We've seen this attitude time and time again and frankly it disgusts me. Does this person truly believe this form of "questioning" by the truth movement is what our founding fathers had in mind when they created our Constitution? Questioning our government is fine, anyone would be a fool not too, but when you make the accusation of mass murder, without a shred of evidence, and include our government, employees of that government, city officials, emergency personel, the media, investigators, private companies, universities, scientists, and regular citizens who witnessed the attacks is where I and many others draw the line. You sir are no patriot. I believe you think you are a patriot but you are not. You may think you have evidence but you don't. You may think you are doing the right thing but you aren't. You may think you have some greater insight than the rest of us but you don't. You may think you have done your research but you haven't. You may think its fine to accuse hundreds of people of mass murder but it isn't. You only see the speculative evidence that is convenient to keep your dogmatic beliefs alive and ignore any evidence which doesn't allow your dogma to live. You sir are a disillusioned soul nothing more. |
29th June 2011, 09:14 PM | #28 |
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BCR is a truther, the only real truther on most issues. When he had doubts about the FDR from Flt 77, he studied the RADAR data, RADAR systems until he was the "expert", he made the requests for data and did the work which debunked 911 truth delusional claims. BCR made statements on 911 which I took issues with, but he was studying 911, not making delusional claims. I have not found a claim made by BCR that was not backed up with facts and evidence.
If you call BCR to be like McVeigh or other people spewing constitutional nonsense you need to add all the officers in the US military to your list since we were sworn by oath.
Quote:
I am assuming BCR loves the United States for the history we have and I assume he is guided by our founding fathers ...
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More of a projection of their ignorance. How can 911 truthers hate the United States, they are too stupid on 911 issues to comprehend 19 terrorists crashing 4 planes, too dumb to hate. 911 truthers adopt the delusional claims of 911 truth out of ignorance. 911 truthers can't think for themselves to figure out their actions might be confused for a hate campaign against the USA. Are 9/11 conspiracies in fact motivated by hatred of the US? No, motivated by ignorance for those who don't know they are spreading lies, maybe some hate by those who know they are spreading lies. ~ |
29th June 2011, 09:21 PM | #29 |
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Welcome to the Forums Mikey T.
I think you should spend a few moments reading over BCR's posting history here. For somebody who refers to himself as a truther, BCR has done some of finest debunking of truther nonsense that this board has seen. His efforts have simply destroyed the likes of The Citizens's Investigation Team and Pilots for 9/11 Truth. BCR used to post here by the handle 911files and you'll find posts here of his that still have that name to them. BCR may be a truther, just of a rare sort; Logical, intelligent and well studied. So far as I can tell, he's one of kind. Give him a fair shake. |
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29th June 2011, 09:34 PM | #30 |
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It is far more damning that BCR self-identifies as a ...
... mathematician! Shifty characters, the lot of 'em. |
29th June 2011, 09:45 PM | #31 |
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29th June 2011, 10:03 PM | #32 |
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Merely derivative.
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29th June 2011, 10:17 PM | #33 |
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Fair enough, I will go back and look at some of BCR's other posts. Maybe I was too quick to jump the gun on the "patriot" comment but I see this so often in other truther statements that I just assumed it was another truther making a blanket statement about being self-righteous in the name of patriotism. Rarest of rare birds indeed if this is the case about BCR being a truther who is actually looking for the truth and my apoligies to him if there was more substance to his overall stance on the truth movement. Still though, you see this "true patriot" statement flaunted around the truth movement so often it didn't occur to me that someone was actually still looking for the truth and was a truther.
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29th June 2011, 10:28 PM | #34 |
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29th June 2011, 11:20 PM | #35 |
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I agree.
Another aspect appears to be a peculiar, arrogant, self-aggrandizing jadedness. I've personally known quite a few CTers (of many stripes) in my lifetime, and many of them seem to exhibit a strangely prideful resignation that the world is a far worse place than anybody but them is capable of realizing. Many of them find it amusing and pathetic that the majority of us take an active, healthy interest in the world around us, follow the news, participate in politics, etc. Indulging conspiracy theories allows them to feel a privileged connection to world events without ever making an effort to actually get involved in politics. They feel they know everything they need to know about the world without ever leaving the safety of their armchair, and real-world news and politics is just scripted theater anyway, so conventional activism is a waste of time. If the sinister forces that call the shots are so thoroughly in control that taking action against them is futile, then they're completely justified in doing nothing but sitting around, postulating crazy notions on the Internet. Personal politics tend to figure heavily into CTers' preferences of CTs. Many currency cranks I've met tend to have antisemitic leanings, which isn't surprising considering those CTs originally grew out of antisemitic hate literature. Most "9/11 Truthers" I've encountered seem to have reached that subculture by way of political extremist groups on either the far Left (anarchists) or the far Right (libertarians, American ultranationalist groups). There's also a very large "Truther" movement among Muslim Arabs and Middle Easterners, who deny that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks. The "Birthers," "Freemen" and "Sovereign Citizen" types tend to come from an extreme right-wing political background, whereas your anti-"Pharma" and anti-medical establishment cranks tend to come from the left. |
29th June 2011, 11:34 PM | #36 |
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30th June 2011, 12:22 AM | #37 |
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30th June 2011, 01:31 AM | #38 |
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30th June 2011, 05:15 AM | #39 |
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Your comments don't add up. In fact, they're divisive.
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30th June 2011, 05:25 AM | #40 |
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This thread frightens and confuses me
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