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2nd July 2011, 05:36 PM | #41 |
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if you've an youtube account you could join in the debate. I've must say i've learned quite a bit these last few hours. What with the answers here and further reading elsewhere i might be able to work out the velocity of my jaw when it hits the floor when talking with proponents of the 9/11 conspiracy
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2nd July 2011, 05:41 PM | #42 |
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2nd July 2011, 05:41 PM | #43 |
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2nd July 2011, 05:47 PM | #44 |
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2nd July 2011, 05:50 PM | #45 |
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A constant velocity means there is no acceleration. There is no debating a clown. The guy who does the news is a clown who makes up nonsense.
Quote:
Use the hand and wood, concrete Karate analogy next. How can flesh and blood break wood, or concrete? An aircraft wing is strong, it has to hold up at 600 mph, and lift a lot of weight. What is the guys original claim? The wing could have dent, small, big, even a broken spot, cracked etc. but the wing will still work. A fellow pilot lost about 10 feet of wing and he kept flying after the wingtip blew off due to strobe lights or lightning. |
2nd July 2011, 05:53 PM | #46 |
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Why are we continuing to pick around the details for supporting proof for a claim (that there was no damage) for which he has provided no initial evidence for?
In other words I think we are wasting time trying to correct calculations for something that is attempting to prove the ridiculous. Let him first try to show evidence for the ridiculous. |
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2nd July 2011, 05:54 PM | #47 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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2nd July 2011, 05:58 PM | #48 |
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i'm not sure what his claim of what happened to the wing is other than it breaks the laws of physics f=ma. I guess it must be that the wing would be ripped off before impacting the pentagon and be lying next to the lamp post but as i say, i can't speak for him so i don't know if that's what he thinks.
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2nd July 2011, 06:02 PM | #49 |
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2nd July 2011, 06:03 PM | #50 |
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We're not trying to "Correct calculations", though. What we're doing is pointing out that, yet again, a truther who insists he knows all about physics, and that we're the idiots for not agreeing with him, in fact doesn't even understand the most basic of physics equations. It highlights both the ignorance and arrogance that all too often characterizes the truther position. Now, queue him whining about "ad hominem attacks", while completely failing to understand that an ad hominem is only a fallacy when we're addressing aspects of the person that are irrelevant to the debate. In this case, however, his understanding (or lack thereof) of physics is entirely central to the debate. As I said earlier, someone who can't even understand the errors he makes in asserting that A = V will never understand anything more complicated. And analysis of a high-speed collision definitely falls into the "more complicated" category. |
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2nd July 2011, 06:07 PM | #51 |
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Yes, but don't you think he should provide some physical evidence for his "no damage" claim before delving into the minutia of physics calculations?
This is more like me claiming that the planes turned into circus clowns at the last second and then providing nonsense calculations for it. Everyone then points out the errors in the calculations without pointing out how stupid it is to even claim the planes turned into circus clowns at all. |
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2nd July 2011, 06:08 PM | #52 |
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Now, asking why the wing didn't tear off is a legitimate question, and I can understand someone wondering about that. The issue here is, figuring out the answer to that question is so complicated, that even understanding what F = MA actually means is only the first, most basic requirement. He's trying to use YouTube to do an analysis that I wouldn't even start without a couple of mechanical engineers on staff. That he thinks this is reasonable is just ridiculous. |
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2nd July 2011, 06:11 PM | #53 |
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"Should"? How long have you been arguing with truthers? You should () know by know that expecting them to provide the evidence they "should" provide is a fool's game. If I want to argue (and I do!), I've got to argue with what we've got - and so far, the only evidence we have to discuss is the evidence of his complete incompetence. So that's what I'll argue about. |
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2nd July 2011, 06:16 PM | #54 |
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2nd July 2011, 06:17 PM | #55 |
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2nd July 2011, 06:21 PM | #56 |
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Stupid argument since there is only a minimal acceleration component exerted on the wing. He is using the wrong equation for the plane. There is a kinetic energy component based on mass and velocity, but not acceleration. There will be a negative acceleration based on the impulse required to sever the 'break-away', but again, there is lever action involved which will further reduce. The kinetic energy of a 757 traveling at 500 knots relative to a light pole 'break-away' impulse is so insignificant that the acceleration component might not even register on the accelerometer on the aircraft (although we believe that it did).
Whoops, missed your comment beachnut. What beachnut said |
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2nd July 2011, 06:24 PM | #57 |
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2nd July 2011, 06:25 PM | #58 |
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Well, I think I'm on the "cynical" part of my "cynic-optimist" cycle. We should continue to hope that truthers will figure out what they need to do to really answer some of their questions, while at the same time, not losing sight of the fact that, if they could do that, they likely wouldn't be truthers. |
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2nd July 2011, 06:29 PM | #59 |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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2nd July 2011, 06:32 PM | #60 |
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2nd July 2011, 06:34 PM | #61 |
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"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM |
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2nd July 2011, 06:36 PM | #62 |
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Well, like I said, I'd start off by sitting down with a couple of mechanical engineers. Modelling this is far beyond what we can do here (never mind YouTube), but here's at least a few questions we'd need to ask:
Of course, to answer some of these questions (such as the one about the force needed to shear off the wing) will themselves be very complicated questions, but we can hope that standard answers can be found elsewhere, so we can just plug the numbers in. |
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2nd July 2011, 06:52 PM | #63 |
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OP, can you ask fknnewz to post a link where it says the velocity is equal to the acceleration in a collision with one object stationary?
Aside: I think we are overthinking the physics here. If the poles are designed to break away when they are hit by a car, they break when some maximum force is reached. Once that force is reached, they are no longer connected to the base, and have fallen to the ground, so are no longer having any contact with the plane. So wouldn't the maximum force F would be the breakaway force? |
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2nd July 2011, 06:55 PM | #64 |
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Yes sir, that is called the impulse. You just earned an A+
Just to clarify, the F (impulse) is also dependent upon the deformation of the pole at the point of impact (elasticity) and how high on the pole it was stuck. You can use the 'break-away' force as the upper boundary if you wish, but the actual impulse will be less than that (lever action). |
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2nd July 2011, 06:57 PM | #65 |
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Vive la liberté! |
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2nd July 2011, 07:12 PM | #66 |
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BobHaulk, if he's willing to blather on on YouTube, why won't he come here?
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2nd July 2011, 07:13 PM | #67 |
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So, at most, we are really looking at the design breakaway force for the poles. Anyone have a copy of AASHTO handy?
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2nd July 2011, 07:51 PM | #68 |
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True.
It would also be against JREF Forum rules to debate here with someone who's posting in another forum. We can, however, answer BobHaulk's factual questions and go on to discuss related matters. We are not debating the clown, so his errors needn't limit our discussions. To expand on BCR's last sentence and parenthetical comment: He suggested that calculation over at ATS about 18 months ago (when Rob Balsamo was posting there as "R_Mackey"), and I responded there. If you look at the accelerations recorded by Flight 77's Flight Data Recorder (FDR) during its final seconds (in the last graph on that web page), you'll see a small dip in the longitudinal acceleration 0.75 seconds before the end of data. That dip may have been caused by the plane's collisions with the last two light poles, but both the dip and the (correctly) calculated upper bound for the cumulative effect of those impacts are so small that we can't be sure. Both the dip and the estimated effect are only slightly larger than the noise. That's consistent with what beachnut, Horatius, and BCR have been saying here. By the way, those last few seconds of FDR data were recovered by Warren Stutt, another member of this forum. My curiosity about those missing seconds led me to BCR's research and to the JREF Forum. |
2nd July 2011, 08:00 PM | #69 |
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Here a reference to the concept of impulse that might come in handy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics) Note that the impulse is essentially the change in momentum (force * time). Of course we are talking about a very small time interval. The resulting effect on the plane's wing will be dependent on the impulse. A small force exerted over long period can result in the same change in momentum (hence in velocity if the mass does not change) as a large force over a much shorter period of time. |
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2nd July 2011, 08:06 PM | #70 |
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We'd also need to allow for the acceleration of the light post after the impact, as it's final velocity will surely be greater than 0. Of course, this whole process will be spread out over a finite duration, so we get into the impulse issues you've brought up, but we shouldn't neglect it. My instinct is to say that this will have less effect than the break-away force required, but we need to be thorough, so as to not give this truther any wiggle room. |
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2nd July 2011, 08:18 PM | #71 |
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"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM |
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2nd July 2011, 08:40 PM | #72 |
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2nd July 2011, 09:27 PM | #73 |
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Show this guy a picture of a building flattened by a tornado, then point out the damage was caused by a bunch of air moving at less than 500 knots. You may also want to point out:
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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2nd July 2011, 10:03 PM | #74 |
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2nd July 2011, 10:24 PM | #75 |
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Originally Posted by fknnewz
ETA: since he seems to be admitting that he is from another planet (where a sometimes equals v), perhaps the bugs there are really really big. I shouldn't be so quick to judge... I hope fknnewz comes back tomorrow, I'm anxious to hear his thoughts on the kinetic energy issue! |
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2nd July 2011, 11:38 PM | #76 |
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3rd July 2011, 12:05 AM | #77 |
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3rd July 2011, 12:08 AM | #78 |
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3rd July 2011, 12:21 AM | #79 |
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3rd July 2011, 12:29 AM | #80 |
Muse
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i was lying awake this morning and thought this and wondered why i hadn't before. Still in the last few hours i've learned more about physics and have a better understanding why the lamp posts broke the laws of physics on 9/11 is nonsense.
Maybe i'm going to ask if there are any other laws of physics me mate might want to tell me about that were broken that day cause i've heard that there might be. |
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