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Old 17th July 2011, 05:10 PM   #1
SkepticOfLies
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How many people are there with actual relevant expertise....

....In Architects and Engineers for 911 truth? I can't seem to find a "master" list with all of their qualifications specified, has anyone here looked into this much at all?
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Old 17th July 2011, 05:18 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by SkepticOfLies View Post
....In Architects and Engineers for 911 truth? I can't seem to find a "master" list with all of their qualifications specified, has anyone here looked into this much at all?
There was some posts on that awhile back I read where some people on here went through the list to see if the people still had licenses and that kind of thing. I stopped taking any of their signee's seriously the minute I saw like 2-3 who were listed as "Landscape Architects"....sorry but the kid that mows my lawn isn't exactly someone I'd believe has the necessary skills and education to refute the work of Bazant et al, NIST, the ASCE, etc etc...

The fact that AE911Truth allows "Landscape Architects" on their petition proves to me they weren't serious and only added to my belief that it's all about money for Dick Gage. It's also why I won't sign the petition of engineers that's FOR the "official story", I don't think my MCSE gives me the necessary credential to be an authority on structural engineering.
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Old 17th July 2011, 06:46 PM   #3
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Isn't there an Agricultural Engineer as well?
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Old 17th July 2011, 07:37 PM   #4
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I know a girl who's a toilet engineer... No really, she has a masters degree having something to do with ceramics and manufacturing and she works for American Standard. I'm sure that she's highly qualified to sign the AE911 petition. Perhaps even more so than all of the other people on there.
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Old 18th July 2011, 01:01 AM   #5
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Here is the list http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php#supporters. There are 4 people who have Landscape as part of their qualifications. Example
Regine C. Naeckel
Quote:
After I finished the study of Landscape and Environmental Planning at Technische Universität Berlin I worked as a documentarist and editorial journalist for the German television, focused on natural science topics. Now I'm working as a Landscape Architect - but most of my time I spend with writing about political topics on one of the widely read German blogs.
If you click on their name it takes you to their profile. Homework for someone. Try to find any mention any of these people have made about 911 outside of 911 forums, such as Wikipedia.
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Old 18th July 2011, 07:33 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here is the list http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php#supporters. There are 4 people who have Landscape as part of their qualifications. Example
Regine C. Naeckel
Thank you, this is exactly the type of list I was looking for. I'm no expert on this subject though, so can anybody throw me a rough number indicating how many people in AE911 actually have enough professional expertise to discuss 911 scientifically? I'm not sure which of those expertise on the list to take seriously or not, like many of you do. Just a rough estimated number out of the 1,500 + people would be the conclusion to this thread, for me anyway.
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Old 18th July 2011, 03:27 PM   #7
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Look Here For a Commentary on the Latest News from AE911Truth

In that thread, I have posted details on the licensed professional engineers from the "petition". I am checking their status, state by state, as my time allows. Haven't finished the stats yet, but this is the picture that emerges:
  • They have close to 280 licensed engineers
  • Of these, somewhat less than 50% have relevant expertise as stuctural, civil or fire protection engineers. This percentage is somewhat lower than among all P.E.s in the USA, perhaps indicating that those engineers with the best relevant training are least likely to fall for Gage's nonsense.
  • The rest are mainly electrical and mechanical engineers (20% each), the rest are all sorts, like chemical, marine, or geological engineers
  • Most of those listed are actually engineers with a legitimate license number as P.E., but about 3% are not.
  • However, only about 70% of these licenses are current/active/clear/registered (different states name their status differently). The rest are expired, retired, inactive, denied, delinquent, not registered, etc.
  • In most states, active signers represent about 0.02% of all active, licensed engineers, or 1 out of 5,000.

Given the above estimates, the number of active, licensed and relevant experts on the petition should be around 85, or under 6% of the famous "1500+".

I haven't looked at the architects, or those with an engineering background who are not licensed engineers. There has been some debate going back and forth how much an architect would know compared to a structural engineer. There are around 250 licensed architects on the petition.
However, since civil, structural and fire protection engineering are always security-related activities and require licenses in all US state to be practised, I figure it is reasonable to dismiss the non-licensed US "professionals" (ca. 70 with background in architecture and 530 in engineering).
The ca. 330 non-US professionals are a mixed bunch and hard to assess.
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Old 18th July 2011, 04:05 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Look Here For a Commentary on the Latest News from AE911Truth

In that thread, I have posted details on the licensed professional engineers from the "petition". I am checking their status, state by state, as my time allows. Haven't finished the stats yet, but this is the picture that emerges:
  • They have close to 280 licensed engineers
  • Of these, somewhat less than 50% have relevant expertise as stuctural, civil or fire protection engineers. This percentage is somewhat lower than among all P.E.s in the USA, perhaps indicating that those engineers with the best relevant training are least likely to fall for Gage's nonsense.
  • The rest are mainly electrical and mechanical engineers (20% each), the rest are all sorts, like chemical, marine, or geological engineers
  • Most of those listed are actually engineers with a legitimate license number as P.E., but about 3% are not.
  • However, only about 70% of these licenses are current/active/clear/registered (different states name their status differently). The rest are expired, retired, inactive, denied, delinquent, not registered, etc.
  • In most states, active signers represent about 0.02% of all active, licensed engineers, or 1 out of 5,000.

Given the above estimates, the number of active, licensed and relevant experts on the petition should be around 85, or under 6% of the famous "1500+".

I haven't looked at the architects, or those with an engineering background who are not licensed engineers. There has been some debate going back and forth how much an architect would know compared to a structural engineer. There are around 250 licensed architects on the petition.
However, since civil, structural and fire protection engineering are always security-related activities and require licenses in all US state to be practised, I figure it is reasonable to dismiss the non-licensed US "professionals" (ca. 70 with background in architecture and 530 in engineering).
The ca. 330 non-US professionals are a mixed bunch and hard to assess.
Just the type of response I was looking for, thank you. Anyway, an architect posted on a blog claiming that the towers looked nothing like a controlled demolition. She then went on to say that it doesn't matter what she thinks anyway, because architecture is a Bachelor or 'Arts', not science. She stated she was just as qualified as anybody to discuss a buildings collapsing.

Is she being too hard on herself/ architects in general? If not, think I think it's fair for you to leave them out of the equation the way you did.
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Old 18th July 2011, 04:18 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by SkepticOfLies View Post
Just the type of response I was looking for, thank you. Anyway, an architect posted on a blog claiming that the towers looked nothing like a controlled demolition. She then went on to say that it doesn't matter what she thinks anyway, because architecture is a Bachelor or 'Arts', not science. She stated she was just as qualified as anybody to discuss a buildings collapsing.

Is she being too hard on herself/ architects in general? If not, think I think it's fair for you to leave them out of the equation the way you did.
It depends. I am sure an architect who has constructed highrises would be more qualified than a civil engineer who builds roads and nothing else. An architect who specialises in cottages however would fare bad against the civil eng. who does the steel pylons of bridges.

In the end neither their qualifications nor their numbers matter so much, but what arguments they have to support their stance, and what they do about it.
I haven's systematically looked at their personal statements. Most who express an opinion on who dunnit do indeed believe in some sort of inside job/demolition, but the petition, as it is worded, would leave room for those who think the common story is probably alright, but allow some room for residual doubt that a new investigation ought to remove.
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Old 18th July 2011, 04:24 PM   #10
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Also, my dismissing the engineering professionals and the foreigners is somewhat light-handed. The main reason I don't count and check them is that there are no standardized resources to research these people, comparable to the PE registers of licensed engineers that are kept by every state. I can know that the 190 or so active PEs are ca. 1 in 5000 out of all active PEs in the country, but I have no way of counting or guessing how many people there are with some kind of engineering degree, and I have no way of checking individually what their professional standing is.
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Old 20th July 2011, 03:09 PM   #11
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Zero qualifications required to be apathetic and fall for lies. A&E drones, over qualified to support moronic delusions plagiarized by Gage. A&E drones, as qualified as Bigfoot believers.

Qualifications to Join Gage:
1. Fail to engage rational thinking
2. Fall for stupid in a single signing.
3. Over qualified to fall for fraud.
4. 10 years of ignorance on 911.
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Old 20th July 2011, 04:48 PM   #12
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There are 4 people who have Landscape as part of their qualifications.

Landscape?

Cut lawns when was a kid - dies that qualify me for A&E911?
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Old 21st July 2011, 07:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It depends. I am sure an architect who has constructed highrises would be more qualified than a civil engineer who builds roads and nothing else. An architect who specialises in cottages however would fare bad against the civil eng. who does the steel pylons of bridges.

In the end neither their qualifications nor their numbers matter so much, but what arguments they have to support their stance, and what they do about it.
I haven's systematically looked at their personal statements. Most who express an opinion on who dunnit do indeed believe in some sort of inside job/demolition, but the petition, as it is worded, would leave room for those who think the common story is probably alright, but allow some room for residual doubt that a new investigation ought to remove.
To see what disciplines NIST considered important to their investigation please refer to whom they hired to participate in the studies, and their qualifications:

http://wtc.nist.gov/solicitations/

Heavy on SEs, no architects (that I could see).
Architects take structural engineering courses in college, nowhere near as many as CEs or SEs of course. I took 3 semesters of wood, steel, concrete, and foundations design. We became acquainted with most of the applicable forces and drew structural designs showing our calculations for homework and tests. I still have my ink drawn blueprints (!) not bluelines at home and my Steel Handbook (Manual of Steel Construction-1970, $12.05) that I still use to this day. For dimensions of shapes only.

Architects are familiar with the forces/stresses lingo and concepts but weak in the math and integrated design. That's why we need and hire structural engineers. Architects are like the conductor of an orchestra, we make the tout ensemble out of the parts. We coordinate owners, code compliance, contractors, MEP, structural, civil engineers to produce the building.

Architects can even help structural engineers keep out of trouble.
So one day (15, or was it 25 years ago) I and Roy (structural engineer) were at the site where the pile driver had just begun to drive piles. Preengineered metal building big office/warehouse; three big drinks mix syrup s.s. tanks about 10,000 gals. each or so at 8# / gallon; like 40 tons each. The stakes (wood stakes with red flags on them) marking the piles location were placed. Roy and I are chit chatting. Pile clusters under columns 20 feet apart, pile supported grade beams 10 feet on center.

Roy, I say, where are the piles under the tanks? @#%$ he replies and calculates and sketches the additional piles right there. His professional liability insurance premium remained the same the following year.
The contractor, permits , contractor project manager, owner, contractor superintendent, pile driver had not picked this up.

The point of the story is that Architects can understand the big picture, can "feel" when something doesn't look or sound right, and where the MIHOPers' claims ring false. Some people we know have opined that SEs design demolition "weak spots" into all high rise buildings for future demolition. Carp. Not on any of my jobs.

Structural engineers are the best source to comment on incompetent structural claims about CD.
Architects are the best source to comment on naked girls in art class and why the cute ones prefer us over the pocket protectors.

Bottom line for MIHOPers: In your guts you know they're nuts.

Edited by Locknar:  Hotlink removed, breach of rule 5, rule 9.
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A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum

Last edited by Locknar; 22nd July 2011 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 21st July 2011, 11:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Basquearch .
The point of the story is that Architects can understand the big picture, can "feel" when something doesn't look or sound right, and where the MIHOPers' claims ring false.
Of course "feeling" something is not sufficient as proof. It is the start of analysis to be backed up by evidence.
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum
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Old 21st July 2011, 01:52 PM   #15
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Just recommended to the mods that this thread be merged with any number of the other threads started on this same topic.


Gage's petition's signatures are nearly 4 years old - are they still valid?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=200674

Questions about the "Truth" Movement's "Experts"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=207228

AE911Truth and the actual # of engineers in America...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=129163

Most detailed scientific papers for and against controlled demolition
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=198213

Q's about AE911T
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=196132

Truthers: Structural Engineering and Physics Expertise in the Analysis of the WTC
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=190451

AE 911 Truth at Full Juggernaut Strength
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...165029&page=20
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Old 21st July 2011, 01:56 PM   #16
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Nice gratuitous naked lady pic, Basque Arch.

Wait, I think I have a picture of a monkey somewhere.... Yes, I do!

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“Much of the 9/11 story has not been told to the public" - Steven Badger, attorney for insurance litigators affected by the WTC disaster.
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Old 21st July 2011, 02:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Just recommended to the mods that this thread be merged with any number of the other threads started on this same topic.


Gage's petition's signatures are nearly 4 years old - are they still valid?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=200674

Questions about the "Truth" Movement's "Experts"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=207228

AE911Truth and the actual # of engineers in America...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=129163

Most detailed scientific papers for and against controlled demolition
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=198213

Q's about AE911T
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=196132

Truthers: Structural Engineering and Physics Expertise in the Analysis of the WTC
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=190451

AE 911 Truth at Full Juggernaut Strength
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...165029&page=20
Thanks Mr. Helper!

I reported your post as off topic.

As is mine.

Wait, what?
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Old 21st July 2011, 03:14 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Nice gratuitous naked lady pic, Basque Arch.

Wait, I think I have a picture of a monkey somewhere.... Yes, I do!


Recent polls indicate that 95% appreciate pictures of art nudes.
The other 5% , well ...
They prefer pictures of naked monkeys.
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum

Last edited by BasqueArch; 21st July 2011 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 21st July 2011, 03:40 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
.....

Architects can even help structural engineers keep out of trouble.
So one day .....

Roy, I say, where are the piles under the tanks? @#%$ he replies and calculates and sketches the additional piles right there. His professional liability insurance premium remained the same the following year.
The contractor, permits , contractor project manager, owner, contractor superintendent, pile driver had not picked this up.
Neither had this architect.
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum
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Old 21st July 2011, 11:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
I know a girl who's a toilet engineer... No really, she has a masters degree having something to do with ceramics and manufacturing and she works for American Standard. I'm sure that she's highly qualified to sign the AE911 petition. Perhaps even more so than all of the other people on there.
American Standard makes a helluva toilet. Is she any relation to her? Because I might be in love.
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Old 21st July 2011, 11:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post
Recent polls indicate that 95% appreciate pictures of art nudes.
The other 5% , well ...
They prefer pictures of naked monkeys.
I want a monkey, but must remind myself they are Smarter Dogs With Thumbs. I prefer my dogs to be idiots without thumbs.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 09:14 AM   #22
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Architects aren't research scientists, and neither are engineers (unless they have advanced training in research science). Discovering what really happened on 9/11 takes research science.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 12:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Architects aren't research scientists, and neither are engineers (unless they have advanced training in research science). Discovering what really happened on 9/11 takes research science.

NIST Blundered Hiring Structural Engineers
To Study Towers Structural Collapse
Should Have Hired Biologists
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum

Last edited by BasqueArch; 22nd July 2011 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 12:44 PM   #24
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If you read the NIST report, you'll notice that it is fraudulent.
It purports to study the "collapse" of the WTC, but it stops at the
moment conditions for collapse were initiated.

What this means is that this study (began 13 months after the attacks) did not analyze what it was supposed to analyze.

Research scientists are the people who needed to do this. Not architects, and not engineers. They don't have the right education.


Originally Posted by BasqueArch View Post

NIST Blundered In Hiring Structural Engineers
To Study Structural Collapse Of Towers
Should Have Hired Biologists
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Old 22nd July 2011, 12:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
If you read the NIST report, you'll notice that it is fraudulent.
It purports to study the "collapse" of the WTC, but it stops at the
moment conditions for collapse were initiated.

What this means is that this study (began 13 months after the attacks) did not analyze what it was supposed to analyze.

Research scientists are the people who needed to do this. Not architects, and not engineers. They don't have the right education.
Biologist Misses NIST to Bazant Pass.
Proves Not Knowing What Talking About
Still Not Illegal In US
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum
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Old 23rd July 2011, 07:09 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
If you read the NIST report, you'll notice that it is fraudulent.
It purports to study the "collapse" of the WTC, but it stops at the
moment conditions for collapse were initiated.
If they studied the entire collapse, they would still be working on it. Probably finish in time for the hundredth anniversary if quantum nano computers become available.
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Old 23rd July 2011, 08:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
If you read the NIST report, you'll notice that it is fraudulent.
It purports to study the "collapse" of the WTC, but it stops at the
moment conditions for collapse were initiated.

What this means is that this study (began 13 months after the attacks) did not analyze what it was supposed to analyze.

Research scientists are the people who needed to do this. Not architects, and not engineers. They don't have the right education.
A box of one thousand toothpick falls off a shelf and scatters on the floor.
Choice A - try to determine why the box fell off the shelf to prevent it from happening again.
Choice B - try to determine how each toothpick landed in the exact spot that it did.

Engineers, Architects etc will select 'A' every time.
Troofers will always select 'B'..then claim that selecting 'A' is "fraudulent"
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Old 23rd July 2011, 08:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Architects aren't research scientists, and neither are engineers (unless they have advanced training in research science). Discovering what really happened on 9/11 takes research science.

No, "research science" was needed......just statics and mechanics of materials, solid mechanics, structural dynamics. probability and reliability, design of steel structures, structural system testing and model correlation, structural analysis, structural stability, and a few other related topics.
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Old 24th July 2011, 01:57 PM   #29
George 152
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Originally Posted by WTC Dust View Post
Architects aren't research scientists, and neither are engineers (unless they have advanced training in research science). Discovering what really happened on 9/11 takes research science.
19 mad muslims hijack 4 aircraft.
They crash 3 into structures and the 4th goes down when the passengers attempt to take it back
What is research science and why does it change any of the above facts ?
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Old 24th July 2011, 03:37 PM   #30
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100,000 ce
Architect: "After 98,000 years, we are proud to announce we have completed the study of how the entire collapse of the World Trade Towers collapsed."

Engineer: "We painstakingly modeled every nut, bolt, beam, and seam and can finally, without any bit of doubt, authoritatively state that it was not an inside job or a controlled demolition."

Architect: "Based on these extensive photos taken during construction and of the debris pile, we proclaim the controversy dead."

Grand Wazoo of the Church of Truth Dylan Corey Anders Christopher April Gage the XCIVth: "You never counted the Holy Red Chips Relic in our vault! Inside Jobbity Job!!!11!!11"

BANG BANG

Architect: "Any other comments or questions?"
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