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26th September 2014, 07:50 PM | #81 |
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Humbug!
I'm calling "shenanigans" on the whole thing.
It would take less than an hour to set up an ignition test under an inert atmosphere. If it doesn't ignite, you know it's not thermite, though you don't know exactly what it is. You announce your result and ask if your contributors want you to go on. If it does ignite, you announce it! Even though you still don't know what it is, it passed the first test! Your contributors will be begging for more tests and will be chipping in dollars aplenty. Humbug! |
16th October 2014, 07:51 PM | #82 |
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17th October 2014, 11:35 PM | #83 |
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This whole study is nothing but a joke. If it was a truly independent study the said chips would be collected and sent to a lab asking what the substance is. There is no need to tell them how they need to conduct the experiment.
The real out come is that some gullible people handed over 5k for nothing, which of course is nothing new for the truth movement. |
18th October 2014, 03:40 AM | #84 |
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Dr. Jones has made a critical flaw he is biased
The energetic chips mean nothing, he has to Prove tbey are engineered not of natural origin. I produced energetic dust from silicon carbide grinding Wheels used on clean Iron then aluminum, Then weathered naturally since 2009. I achieved a thermitic reaction visible when Heated. The high melt metals form.nano spheres In the cavities of the silicon carbide, the low Melt metals form plates on the outside. The steel nano spheres would oxides to form Fe 203 cubes. Natural thermitic chips that look like they Were possibly engineered. Structure does not.always imply design. |
19th October 2014, 01:45 AM | #85 |
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19th October 2014, 04:22 AM | #86 |
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No I can not take images.with my equipment,
The artifacts made by abrasive cutting are well Documented. High temperature melt metals like Iron form micro spheres Or nano spheres. Low temperature melt metals form platelets All dependent on the fineness of the grit on The cutting wheel. |
19th October 2014, 08:09 AM | #87 |
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Ah ok, yes, I can believe that easily and think you are right.
But you said, on top of this: "I produced energetic dust from silicon carbide grinding Wheels used on clean Iron then aluminum, Then weathered naturally since 2009. I achieved a thermitic reaction visible when Heated."I wonder how you could tell that what YOU produced showed a "thermitic" reaction? How do you know it's not iron dust simply igniting on ambient air? Or perhaps Al-dust? Did you do your tests under inert gas? Tell you what: Why don't you document for us step by step what you did - and what you observed, and how you observed it? Describe the experiment design, and present data rather than merely verbal descriptions? |
19th October 2014, 09:50 AM | #88 |
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19th October 2014, 02:06 PM | #89 |
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Aww don't misunderestimate me! Oh how I am able to mistake one reaction for another!!
Brightness - as measured in lumen? lux? candela? Wouldn't that also be a function of probe mass? You got calibrated eyes? All I read here is that you don't have the evidence and I just have to trust your superior eye sight. |
19th October 2014, 02:31 PM | #90 |
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19th October 2014, 02:42 PM | #91 |
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Well good that you say that now! Was I supposed to know you did it under argon?
I have no idea what your equipment was, and what you did! And WHAT exactly ignited there. Why don't you write up some sort of paper that describes your experiments? Abstract, objectives, methods, equipment, materials, tests done, results and data, discussion, conclusions? |
19th October 2014, 04:18 PM | #92 |
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I am just a Layman Oystein there is no reason
For me to publish anything, and I most likely am wrong. Me publish who would read it? I never wanted to be part of this debate, I just wanted to blow stuff up and have Fun. Dr. Greening talked me into Staying in it and I really wish I hadn't listened. |
26th October 2014, 02:10 PM | #93 |
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I never saw this Project Status Report August 2014 by Mark Basile until just now. Must have been blind...
On his own website, it's http://aneta.org/markbasile_org/stud...ugust_2014.pdf Yes, underwhelming. I have two major problems with this report: 1.) Which criteria? Basile writes: "A number of chips have been screened, but more need to be evaluated. The goal here is to find the best candidates for outside facility work." But by what criteria does he decide which chip specimen are "the best" candidates? Can't be thermal test, as those tend to destroy the specimen. 2.) Old images He writes: "I presently have seven samples of World Trade Center dust and am going through the material screening for particles of interest. Five samples have been screened completely. Two are still ongoing and expected to be completed in about a month. A number of the samples have red/gray chips of various size and composition using EDX (energy dispersive x-ray) for analytical comparison. Some images are attached as Figures 1a through 1d which show chips from a few of the samples". This sounds as if the attached images were from his recent and ongoing work towards selecting chips for future lab testing. However, image 1d is the same chip he already presented in 2010 as his "lucky chip #13" (near the 39:00 minutes mark). Consequently, images 2a and 2b were also already part of his 2010 presentation: At 46:30 and 43:08 in the video. I am not claiming he is trying to deceive, but I have slight doubts if images 1a-1c represent current and ongoing work. ETA: I wonder more and more what the reason is to do a DSC test. The data that a DSC test delivers is a series of heat flows (expressed in W/g) measured as a sample is heated (or cooled) to specified temperatures. I don't see that Harrit e.al. use the data at all to support their conclusion of "active thermitic material". Yes, the exotherm peaks and total heat releases definitely speak for an exotherm chemical reaction, but the nature thereof is not determined from the DSC data. To do so, they would have to compare their data to some references, and specify the criteria by which that comparison be done. Is it the peak hight? The peak temerature? The peak width? Any other features (location and magnitude) along the curves? They never discuss this. They show a comparison of one chip with one example (Tillotson and Gash) of actual nanothermite in Fig. 29, and apparently the mere existence of the comparison is designed to suggest to the reader that the curves are somehow similar - but they don't even claim they are similar! So, if Basile gets DSC-data from an independent lan, showing exotherm peaks - what's he gonna do with them? What are tjhe criteria to conclude thermite or no-thermite; or paint/no paint? I don't see there exist any. I stand by that opinion, but advise you that this is a matter of my personal opinion, and I base that on little more than gut feeling. I like to believe I have a talent for reading physiognomy, but understand that that's considered a pseudoscience. |
26th October 2014, 02:27 PM | #94 |
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26th October 2014, 02:38 PM | #95 |
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Good question! In an interview almost 2 years ago, Basile said that many of the "red" chips are actually paint after all, even some that Jones had studied. I am not sure if he meant or included "red-gray" chips in that statement.
Perhaps he has by now figured out additional criteria that enable him to predict which chips will react "vigorously" and/or create roundish, iron-rich residue particles? I'd be interested to learn these criteria! |
26th October 2014, 02:51 PM | #96 |
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26th October 2014, 03:52 PM | #97 |
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1st November 2014, 06:24 AM | #98 |
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Oystein,
The two things that Basile is talking about doing that I find "interesting" are 1) Actually releasing any FTIR data he collects and 2) heating up his "chips of interest" in a non-oxygenated environment. Those are two pieces of data that have so far not been created (oops, I mean not released to the public) by someone in 9/11 Truth. And both of these can shed some new light on the chips. You're right, the DSC data from burning in in air will be a useless repetition and tell us nothing new. |
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1st November 2014, 09:09 AM | #99 |
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Chris,
I questioned why they are doing DSC, as they don't use the DSC data to advance their hypothesis. Your point 2) talks about "heating up chips", but DSC is not just "heating up chips", it is "heating up chips plus collecting thermodynamics data along the way". But they don't use the data. So why do they demand that Millette, or Basile, or anyone, do DSC? They kinda pretend they use the data, for example when they claim that the chips "ignite" near 415 °C - but even with such a simple statement, there are two problems already: 1. two of the chips (the black and green curve) don't "ignite" (i.e. start to oxidize) near 415 °C, they ignite much earlier 2. this ignition temperature is neither typical nor characteristic for thermitic materials. It tells you next to nothing if you want to "prove" nanothermite Next they pretend to compare their DSC-curves with that of real nanothermite, and again, this raises a few questions without answering one: 1. By what criteria would they do a comparison of curves, anyway? 2. The curves are not similar in any meaningful way And then they pretend that the high total energy release sort of speaks for their theory, as in "releases more energy than conventional explosives", but again, that "use" of the data is highly misleading: 1. The chips aren't explosive, so why compare with explosives anyway? 2. The high energy output is their biggest problem really, as it is not possible to construct a "thermitic"material with such high outputs; even if you allow for an "energetic" organic component. My argument here (last point) is a bit complicated, but the short version is:
Their entire "DSC" argument rests on the supposed residue - the supposedly "molten" iron dropplets that cooled to become spheres. To get this residue, you don't need to do a DSC-Test, you can have that cheaper by just igniting the chip any way you like. There can of course be value to a DSC Test in the frame of Basile's test proposel, IF he manages to have the very same chip subjected both to methods that unequivocally ID every component, AND reacts the way they want it to react. But that isn't easy: You can't isolate all components without releasing or freeing the enclosed particles/pigments; you have to "destroy" the material to get at them. But then you can't sensibly ignite the thing. UNLESS you have a chip large enough to cut it into two or more pieces that are in turn large enough to yield good results with the various methods. Then you could run the ID-Tests (FTIR...) on one half, and thermal tests (DSC...) on the other. Ideally, there'd be one chip that - Contains Al only as silicate - Fe only as oxide - mundane organic matrix without further additives - gray layer only the usual iron oxide stuff with only traces of C, Mn AND - shows a nice exotherm in DSC similar to Fig 19 in Harrut e.al. AND - has spherical, iron-bearing particles in the residue AND - Basile can't find Al-oxide Then that would prove that mundane paint can react and form those spheres, without any thermitic reaction at all. I am doubtful that Basile has his experiment design down to be able to get this sort of result, and anything short of it will be spun by truthers into oblivion. Oh, and actually, even if he gets the full result as I describe above, they'll still find ways to talk their way out of the total defeat! |
1st November 2014, 09:33 AM | #100 |
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9th December 2014, 03:58 PM | #101 |
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I guess there's still no progress.
I wonder whatever happened to the $1000 that was awarded after the "physics challenge". It was there one day and no trace the next. ETA:
Quote:
I'm thinking the check bounced. |
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12th December 2014, 11:53 PM | #102 |
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Seriously? Mr Basile still hasn't done the study? This has become a charade; I was actually hoping he'd do it and publish the damn results!
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13th December 2014, 01:13 AM | #103 |
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13th December 2014, 10:17 AM | #104 |
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At least Mark Basile has good reasons for progressing slowly.
Unlike Millette, Mark doesn't own his own lab along with a supply of U.S. government provided 9/11 WTC dust. Of course the apologists for Millette here quite willingly accept his short comings as long as his beliefs continue to support theirs. Too funny...and pathetic. |
13th December 2014, 10:27 AM | #105 |
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13th December 2014, 10:28 AM | #106 |
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Whereas in contrast Harrit and Jones have received widespread acclaim and endorsement among the relevant scientific disciplines.
Oh, wait... |
13th December 2014, 10:35 AM | #107 |
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13th December 2014, 10:38 AM | #108 |
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This could be a problem................
http://markbasile.org/?nr=0
Quote:
Makes you wonder what they did with the $6000. |
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13th December 2014, 10:45 AM | #109 |
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13th December 2014, 10:47 AM | #110 |
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13th December 2014, 11:47 AM | #111 |
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The failed lie of thermite is pathetic, not funny.
What did Mark do with the money? Like Gage, Mark can't do the study, it will ruin the big lie. The Jones paper proved no thermite, how will Mark fake his results to fool the fringe few thermite 911 truth faith based believers. |
14th December 2014, 04:59 AM | #112 |
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Not true, according to the "Mark Basile Progress Report, August 2014", which was still the latest bit of information several days ago when I last visited the non-expired site. It started thusly:
Quote:
Quote:
This kinda diminishes my trust that the other figures show new and presently available material. Here they are anyway, for posteriority: Now, he said that by September, he should have finished sifting visually through all of his samples and have separated all red-gray chips therein. He then proposed to continue thusly: FIRST
Quote:
(In fairness I should add that I remember him saying - don't have a source, I think he told me directly the one time when I called him on the phone - that one could split one chip in two, if two different sets of tests need to be done) And THEN:
Quote:
Quote:
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14th December 2014, 08:24 AM | #113 |
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I’ll cut to the chase.
You acknowledge that Mark Basile has 9/11 WTC dust. You are upset that Mark did not use new photography from his latest work. Like the caption says, the selected photographs are used because they represent the typical appearance of candidate 9/11 WTC dust chips before they are ignited. Photographs are not test results. You then fake an argument that Mark Basile needs to have his selected chips pre-analyzed by an independent lab before they are ignited. That is rendered as total bs when you quickly recall a direct communication with Mark Basile where he clearly informed you that he was able to preserve half of a candidate chip. The rest of your post is rambling speculation that simply ignores the fact that Mark’s research, by necessity, is part time. Like the rest of us, Mark Basile has to devote a lot of his time to making a living wage. |
14th December 2014, 08:33 AM | #114 |
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14th December 2014, 10:35 AM | #115 |
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If he has the chips, independent lab and the money, why not just send them off and get them analysed.
He doesn't need to do any more than that if it is a truly independent analysis. how many years should this take ? |
14th December 2014, 11:31 AM | #116 |
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The problem is they have no defined chip selection criteria that guarantees the chips are the correct ones. The Harrit paper is so poorly done that it can not be reproduced. This has been proven by the fact no one to date has been able to duplicate the results.
I don't think this is by mistake. Harrit has the definitive data but refuses to release it. Whatever happens with the Basile study doesn't matter, they always have the "wrong chips" out. |
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14th December 2014, 01:24 PM | #117 |
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What's your freaking problem, dude??
Yes, I acknowledge he has, what's your damned problem? What is your FSM-damned problem, silly? No, I am not upset at that at all, I just notice and point out! Perhaps it's poor writing and/or editing, but to me the text I quoted sounds as if he says he is showing current samples, because the immediate context contains zero references to past work, it only talks about his ongoing work of finding new chips in the sampled he has. Do you have reading comprehension problems, boy?? No, neither the captions (I did not quote from the captions) nor the text I quoted nor any other passage of this status report say this at all. And where is the problem with this? Why do you make up strawmen? I didn't claim at all that they are! Huh? I don't get your problem! What the hell are you talking about?? We all want the chips to simply be analyzed by an independent lab! I don't want them pre-analyzed at all! Not by a lab, and absolutely NOT by Mark Basile! Tell me, MM, why should he discard chips that don't ignite, and keep from us any analytical results from those? Such as what they are, how they differ from those that ignite, and what proportion burns and doesn't burn? Or don't you agree that the red-gray chips aren't all the same material?? What went wrong with you?? Problematic childhood? You don't get it. I remember something from 2 or 3 years ago. But it would be "rambling speculation" if I assumed that this is his plan, as he does not mention this in the test proposal and does not mention this in the status report - at all! I mentioned this to be FAIR to good old Mark! Now, do you want me to go on rambling speculations? I guess not, because... You are full of probems you need to address, consulting perhaps certain professionals. Listen, did you not get it, did you really fail so badly at reading comprehension, that in the paragraph you are refering here to I am actually DEFENDING Basile? Or are you being nasty on purpose? You certainly do remember that I have more than once defended Basile here in the past!? (And I will again in a following post! I hope you'll give credit where credit is due!) |
14th December 2014, 01:30 PM | #118 |
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14th December 2014, 01:36 PM | #119 |
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This, exactly this.
Mark Basile should tell everybody clearly and equivocally - the independent lab, us, truthers, Harrit, Jones and the rest of the gang: Red-gray chips pulled from WTC-dust with a magnet are several different materials, with different elemental compositions, that will react differently when heated. Please keep this FACT in mind when analysing chips or interpreting other people's analysis!! We need to know the composition of all the different kinds of chips - those that do ignite, and those that don't! Only if we look at ALL the chips can we be certain what they ALL are! Only then will there be clarity and peace (and Harrit, Jones and the gang will be served the ridicule that befits their astounding level of shame). |
15th December 2014, 06:55 AM | #120 |
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I don't think this is accurate. My guess is that he has collected only enough to cover the costs of lab tests, no wages for himself personally. I too get in heat for being too slow... for example, earlier this year, I tried to get someone to analyze campfire ash (still waiting) and to try to get answers from fire chemists about iron-rich spheres (great answers but it took seven months or so). And of course the two years or more I have been waiting for Jim Millette to put out a published paper, something MM and others have repeatedly taunted me about. But Millette is now a "volunteer" unless we come up with thousands more $$$s, as are almost all of us.
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