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8th March 2015, 08:46 PM | #161 |
Critical Thinker
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For crying out loud Chris, I was not attacking Millette, I was saying that he is not ignorant like your buddies, and that he has to abide different standards as a scientist than you forum trolls:
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8th March 2015, 09:05 PM | #162 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Where is Jones
02/12/2012 - Jones says goodbye to 911 truth... Guess thermite, the big inside job; the Biggest Story since Watergate with implications to take down not only the president (like NIXON with Watergate) but a thousands of others who planted the thermite, and covered up the most complex plot in history. Jones turns his back on what would be a Pulitzer, and leaves... (of course 911 truth and Jones can't produce evidence, so they faked a conclusion in a paper which they were forced to publish in a vanity journal - thus no newspaper can team with 911 truth to earn a Pulitzer Prize)
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Since you and 911 truth know 911 was an inside job, why can't you get a newspaper to fund the research; they could earn a Pulitzer publishing the results, and the full story of the plot... wait, you have no plot, no evidence, no thermite, no CD. It took a year, or was it less to break Watergate wide open, why can't 911 truth do anything?
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Who did 911 in your theory of CD and inside job? When will Mark's study be done? Wow, lies and fantasy. You like CD, a lie and a fantasy; you make up BS about Millette - a pattern. Darn; Millette's study is published, I have it. Darn, why do you lie about 911? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...12webHiRes.pdf The sign you ran out of script for BS bashing of NIST, and can't support thermite with evidence. |
9th March 2015, 12:49 AM | #163 |
Penultimate Amazing
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We'll see if Ziggi can help us locate more data
Got no quotes, only my limited understanding. So far we have seen SEM data from Farrer and Jones - Scanning Electron Microscopy. The specimens for this technique can be thick and bulky - the microscopy "scans" electrons (or, with different dectors, X-rays) that are returned from near the surface of the specimen. Several pathways and methods apply. Electrons hit the surface of the sample, penetrate to some depth even (micrometer scale), get scattered, often excite atoms and cause them to emit secondary electrons, and may leave the probe again at some other angle. That behaviour depends on the density of the material and the atom species the electron encounter. Because the original electron and its secondary electrons and xrays "bounce around" and explore a certain depth, it is difficult to focus on individual pigments; in our chips, you always pick up information from material surrounding the spot of interest. A TEM (Transmission Electron Microscopes) essentially looks at electrons that have passed through a specimen, which gives us a requirement for sample preparation: Specimens mut be very thin (well under 1 µm). TEM allows for a higher theoretically possible resolution (SEM is limited at best to perhaps nm, TEM goes well under 1 nm) and better focus, but sample preparation may be a more difficult art. The upshot is that an electron focused on a spot of interest passes only through that spot and doesn't pick up information from surrounding material. This allows for better focus. TEM, like SEM, can be equipped with X-ray detectors to allow for XEDS data (elemental identification), and that is, given competent sample preparation, higher quality then SEM-XEDS. It is better possible to get XEDS data on really just a single pigment, with less or no matrix or neighboring pigments interfering. TEM (but not SEM) can additionally be equipped for "Selected area electron diffraction" (SAED), a method where electron waves passing through gaps between atoms form diffraction patterns if the atoms are regularly spaced in a crystal lattice. The diffraction patterns are characteristic for different crystals and thus constitute a method to identify the crystal species. Millette employed this method and identified the hexagonal, Al-Si-rich platelets as crystals of kaolin. Now, what to expect from Farrer's TEM data? It would depend on his objectives and hence on his sample selection, sample preparation, and the equipment he used in addition to mere electron detection. We know that he has identified trace elements (Sr and Cr as well as Pb), so he apparently used TEM-XEDS. I would expect that he has high-resolution images of the sample areas from which he got the Sr and Cr signals, so we can see if they originate from a pigment, or from an area within the matrix, and whether or not the two elements go together, or are distributed independetly from one another. This would either strengthen or dispel out theory that there are pigments of strontium chromate: TEM can be expected to show those pigments individually (they tend to be larger than the iron oxide pigments, and are typically needle-shaped (acicular), meaning they are several times (for example 10x) longer than thick) and yield XEDS spectra showing mostly O, Cr and Sr peaks. I have seen nothing that suggests that Farrer used SAED with the TEM. If he did (but, I must stress, I don't think he did), he should no doubt have identified kaolin and hematite as well, and could have been in a position to pinpoint other pigments and fillers as well (strontium chromate in LaClede chips; quarz, zinc chromate, calcium silicates and aluminates, talc in Tnemec; possibly lead chromate in other paints; etc.) |
9th March 2015, 01:02 AM | #164 |
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9th March 2015, 09:19 AM | #165 | ||
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31st March 2015, 10:51 AM | #166 |
Master Poster
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Any updates ?
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1st April 2015, 11:25 AM | #167 |
Illuminator
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There will never be any testing performed and therefore no meaningful update will ever occur.
Mark Basile could have this sorted in under 3 weeks if he wanted to. It's very easy to do: 1. Isolate a red/gray chip that is identical in characteristic to chips a)-d) in Harrit et al. Publish the data on the website so everyone can see that this chip matches. 2. Write an email to 20 or 30 materials analysis labs asking for a quote regarding the characterisation of the red layer using FTIR analysis. Provide photos and description of chip. 3. Choose a lab, pay the money, send the chip off and wait. 4. Post independent materials analysis report on website. It won't cost $5000 that's for sure. There's a very good reason why they have done nothing in some 4 years even after raising the money. |
1st April 2015, 07:01 PM | #168 |
Graduate Poster
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AMEN !! Everyone who donated to this spent their money on nothing. But I encourage every truther to give even more. Hard and bitter experience is the only way that some people learn, and some don't even learn from that. I'd like to see all the Truthers empty their bank accounts, sell off their worldly goods, and give all the proceeds to Richard Gage.
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2nd April 2015, 01:06 PM | #169 |
Philosopher
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2nd April 2015, 01:17 PM | #170 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You forgot that nanothermite can be customized to any property you wish for: It can silently explode, burn invisibly, inundate all of NYC with one of its products while completely hiding the other. It survives fires but ignites at a specially low temp. It can give you a bad cough and then heal it. It can improve your stamina and quench that of your rival. And you can make it fetch a stick.
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2nd April 2015, 01:27 PM | #171 |
Merchant of Doom
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__________________
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2nd April 2015, 01:46 PM | #172 |
Philosopher
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3rd April 2015, 09:46 AM | #173 |
Penultimate Amazing
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4th April 2015, 01:40 AM | #174 |
Master Poster
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4th April 2015, 03:53 AM | #175 |
Philosopher
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4th April 2015, 06:18 AM | #176 |
Penultimate Amazing
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LMAO.
Rick: "It is taking more time to test the new process, developed by a Nobel Prize winner Dr. Raman that uses Molecular Spectra Analysis to get the chemical composition of materials. RMSA will test the WTC dust in a way that does not destroy the dust (which is becoming rarer and rarer). This new equipment by AcuTech will make it possible to replicate the experiments 100's of times without destroying the samples." This Dr. Raman developed this "new process", eh? Well, I am impressed, given that Dr. Raman has been dead for 44 years Raman received the Nobel price in 1930 and developed no such process. A physical effect that he he discovered is used for Raman spectroscopy. This was developed by like 1940. With the advent of lasers in the 1960, Raman spectroscopy has become a run-of-the-mill analytical technique, alongside FTIR, XEDS, XRD and others. There is absolutely nothing new about it. "AcuTech" is a manufacturer of small Raman specroscopy devices, and Rick is falling for their marketing. IF Basile were an expert in forensic analysis of dust, and IF Raman spectroscopy were a competent and cost-effective method to analysze particles such as the red-gray chips, then he would have included it in his original proposal. It seems that Basile is NOT an expert in forensic analysis of dust OR Raman spectroscopy is NOT a competent and cost-effective method OR Both These crackpots are merely trying to buy time. |
4th April 2015, 09:00 AM | #177 |
Thinker
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Well, maybe he calls it a "new process", because the process is new to him.
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4th April 2015, 01:33 PM | #178 |
Illuminator
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Posts: 3,128
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Spanx - thanks for that, it's quite funny and also shows the level these people are operating on. I take it these quotes are from a non-public source.
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They really can't understand that in order to positively identify and characterise the particles embedded in the epoxy matrix using TEM-SAED it requires a technique to separate these particles from this matrix and the metallic gray layer. By saying that LTA ruined the experiment it shows that: a) They didn't understand the purpose of this step. b) They ignored the results of the post LTA experiment of TEM-SAED. c) They fail to realise that the DSC test, which they champion, destroys the sample and yields no information as to the constituents of the material. They also fail to acknowledge that a non-destructive technique was also used by Millette; namely FTIR, which not only identified the matrix material, but also confirmed the TEM-SAED analysis showing the presence of kaolin particles.
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It's laughable that they seem to think that it takes time to "test" the "new process" when this technique has been available to the analytical chemist for decades. I'm also wondering why they are in contact with a manufacturer rather than an accredited independent laboratory with materials characterisation equipment and experience. |
26th April 2015, 04:09 PM | #179 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I found something... well, not new, but I found it anyway! Recording of a truther phone conference that took place on 07/31/2013, where several truthers, including Dwain Deets and Barbara Honegger, talked with Mark Basile about his study proposal.
Here is a juicy quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go6kjSTJm_M&t=960 Someone asks in what way Basile thinks he can "advance" the work of Harrit et al, and at 16:34 Basile says this:
Originally Posted by Mark Basile
ETA: Lo and behold, hear what he says at 17:39:
Originally Posted by Mark Basile
And a couple more bits of info that I find interesting: 1. At 25:40 he explains that donations towards his desired $5000 had two options: One via ANETA (Rick Shadock), that Mark can't spell right, and the other to his own, personal PayPal account! 2. At 27:05: About $1500 are already in 3. At 27:15:
Originally Posted by Mark Basile
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26th April 2015, 04:35 PM | #180 |
Skeptic not Atheist
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Is there really any question at this point there is no study actually on-going?
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26th April 2015, 04:43 PM | #181 |
Penultimate Amazing
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26th April 2015, 04:52 PM | #182 |
Skeptic not Atheist
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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26th April 2015, 05:12 PM | #183 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I am not sure I understand your question. Mark is a real person, we have him on record, in his own voice, talking about his plans.
There was a status report last August written by Mark on Rick's page., Do you doubt Mark wrote that? So far, he's been fiddling with his samples by his lonesome self, no labs involved. And no known progress since last August, as even Rick admitted to me just three weeks ago. |
26th April 2015, 05:22 PM | #184 |
Skeptic not Atheist
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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26th April 2015, 06:07 PM | #185 |
Penultimate Amazing
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In my first post today, a few posts up from here, I link to a YT that has part of a phone conference recording with Basile from July 2013. In it, Marc mentions that at that point they had about $1500 of the $5000 collected, with some of the money having gone to his own PayPal account, and that he can already start doing a bit with that money.
So there is evidence from Mark that SOME money was there. |
27th April 2015, 07:24 AM | #186 |
Illuminator
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So he had $1500 and a couple of FTIR tests on samples matching chips a-d would cost $800 max, but he's done nothing and anyway if he was going to start he'd start in the wrong place by looking at meaningless primer samples.
Why pay for an actual test that will tell you exactly what the material is when you can safely do nothing? Laughable. |
11th May 2015, 01:47 PM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I am dumping an old link (February 6, 2014) here of a radio talk between JM Talboo and Ziggi Zugam about the Basile study:
http://noliesradio.org/archives/76313 Ziggi is introduced as an economics student. JM says the goal of $5000 has been reached - although at the time it was already known that Mark really wants $10,000. Mentions Millette's result ("paint"). Says they hope Basile's study will be published in a peer-reviewed journal. Ziggi says Basile did not want money from AE911T to stay independent. At 10:20 JM says that Basile has already tested some pieve of metal from a museum or something for conventional explosives, and that came up negative. JM and Ziggi discuss that the samples they have have been kept under sub-optimal conditions where any explosive residues (nitrates) would likely have deteriorated, and they wonder if it would be possible to get to professionally sampled and stored dust probes via Millette! No indication that they ask Millette, though... From 16 to 21 minutes, Ziggi character-assassinates Chris Mohr. Then some talk about Frank Greening, who is described as a former JREF "darling", ignoring that Frank was banned from here years ago. Buuuut that's off-topic to this thread, so I am tuning out. |
11th May 2015, 03:01 PM | #188 |
Skeptic not Atheist
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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11th May 2015, 03:23 PM | #189 |
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12th May 2015, 12:14 AM | #190 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Two comments on that:
1. Mark has one sample that he got from Janette McKinley, who also provided Jones and Harrit with their "Sample 1", but Mark got it in a separate delivery directly from McKinley (I probable spell her name incorrectly now; too lazy to check). His other samples are from different sources (different from Jones'). 2. One thing that constantly has me wondering: previous dust studies, especially the one by RJ Lee, have established defining characteristics of the WTC dust - qualitatively and quantitatively identified defining markers. Why is there no proposal anywhere to apply these criteria to Basile's or Harrit's sampled to prove they actually have genuine dust from the WTC catastrophe? Remember that last August, half a year after the JM+Ziggi talk, Basile's last status report said that he was then in the processes of isolating suitable chip specimens from the dust for testing, and that he then hoped to have finished that task by September:
Originally Posted by Basile in August 2014
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6th June 2015, 04:41 PM | #191 |
Skeptic not Atheist
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.....the months and years tick by............still no "truthers" wonder where their money went.....
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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7th June 2015, 02:21 AM | #192 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I keep asking Rick Shaddock. A few days ago he wrote that he would perhaps respond to me on a " truly open forum, which allows me to respond" and invited me to the forum of the Skeptiko Community - which is about parapsychology, "consciousness science", near-death experiences etc.
So I jumped right in and posted: http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/thread...-68#post-69191
Originally Posted by me
Originally Posted by Rick Shaddock
I read that as a "no" |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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7th June 2015, 08:27 PM | #193 |
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8th June 2015, 12:07 AM | #194 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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8th June 2015, 05:42 AM | #195 |
Illuminator
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It's strange how truthers will make the utmost of demands against debunkers, but when it comes to their own people they give them a free pass. They'll happily pay the money and then wait years for nothing to happen. To me it looks like people have been scammed.
You could do the work required in a week. It takes no time to separate red/gray chips using a magnet and a magnifying glass. It would take a couple of hours maximum to make sure you had red/gray chips that had the same characteristics as chips a-d if you had access to a SEM - not difficult to organise. You could then send a chip each to 4 independent labs for $500 a time and get back 4 reports. It's laughable that they have taken years just to try and select a couple of chips. Of course we know why they are prevaricating, it's because they can't replicate thermite with the chips they have and know full well that if they send the chips to an independent lab that the results are going to show the material as paint which will leave a lot of egg on a lot of faces. My favourite bit was this:
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No-one cares which lab performs the work as long as it's independent and the material is characterised. The report for characterisation won't come to more than 3 sheets of A4 if that. It's such a basic request. These people are so incompetent and ignorant, they simply don't have a clue. |
8th June 2015, 08:25 AM | #196 |
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer
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"Hello. My name is Inigo Skywalker. You are my father. Prepare to die." |
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8th June 2015, 08:43 AM | #197 |
Illuminator
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I can't help comparing the silence and secrecy of Basile with the full transparency that Chris Mohr always had with the donors (and everyone else), when he hired Millette.
Makes one wonder if Basile has something to hide. |
8th June 2015, 09:03 AM | #198 |
Philosopher
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It does seem that the most probable explanations for this (apparent) inaction are that either he has something to hide or something to fear. I suspect that he may have some preliminary results that he doesn't want to release, but I suppose it's possible that he simply started thinking about what the Harrit critics were saying and is now reluctant to proceed.
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8th June 2015, 03:13 PM | #199 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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8th June 2015, 03:34 PM | #200 |
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In science publishing a paper and not releasing also contradicting experimental results is considered fraudulent, unethical. That's what those people did in the original thermite paper.
Basile should publish/post the results to date and face it. That's why Jones left that fantasy for another, to avoid having to admit he was wrong. It's deceitful and irresponsible to not correct known mistakes that continue to fool others. |
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum |
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