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Old 21st May 2018, 01:40 PM   #1
Nessie
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Prove your wealth was obtained honestly...

I hope this is the start of really standing up to the Russians and others and the end of British complicity in hiding dishonestly gained wealth;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-new-uk-visa/

"Roman Abramovich must explain how he acquired his fortune before he receives a new visa allowing him back into the UK.
The oligarch, who owns Chelsea Football Club, has been forced to apply for a new investment visa after letting his previous one expire, The Telegraph understands.
But new rules require him to pass a tougher visa test that includes proving that his funds were obtained lawfully."
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Old 21st May 2018, 02:58 PM   #2
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That's him screwed then.
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:49 PM   #3
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We're too dependent on those oligarchs, whether they're Russian, from one of the former Soviet republics, the Middle East or they're part of the leadership of a former colony.

IMO we'll make a huge noise about vetting a couple of high profile cases - who will actually be comparatively clean and so can get clearance without us looking too suspect - and then quietly drop the idea and allow that dirty money to continue to flow into The City.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 12:35 AM   #4
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Let's hope they don't start applying those rules to the Queen!
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Old 22nd May 2018, 01:05 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's hope they don't start applying those rules to the Queen!
Please elaborate.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 01:22 AM   #6
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I am reminded of The Wire, where street criminal boss Marlo is introduced to Baltimore society by Levy the lawyer: Marlo might have committed all kinds of crimes to make his money, but the real sharks will take it all away all legitimate, like.
The UK (and the US and the rest of Europe) can do worse than make it expensive for Russian oligarchs to enjoy the luxury and security living anywhere but at home brings.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 01:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Please elaborate.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 02:09 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
That's him screwed then.
I'm sure he can get plenty of signed documents and receipts to prove people willingly* just gave him their property!




*willingly - adjective, example uses "Do you want to see your grandchildren again?", "Shame if something happened to your beautiful wife."
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Old 22nd May 2018, 02:15 AM   #9
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I think that this is as much a government warning to British financial institutions who have clearly helped Russians launder money. They are supposed to check where it came from

Try opening a Post office savings account and there are money laundering questions. If i am going to be checked then so should they.

I hope Abramovich never gets a visa and has to sell Chelsea. That would be a huge shot across Russian bows.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 02:32 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Please elaborate.
Feel free to trace back all the wealth that she has accumulated both in her lifetime and that which was inherited and show me that it was all obtained honestly by 2018 standards. I'm guessing that you can't and that a fair amount of it essentially involved robbing the colonies overseas.

ETA: I am not implying that the Queen herself is a crook; she's terrific. But she comes from a long line of people who, if we apply current standards, managed to transfer an exceptional amount of wealth to the British Isle as the expense of their colonies and dominions and whatever they called the current satrap.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:20 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Feel free to trace back all the wealth that she has accumulated both in her lifetime and that which was inherited and show me that it was all obtained honestly by 2018 standards. I'm guessing that you can't and that a fair amount of it essentially involved robbing the colonies overseas.

ETA: I am not implying that the Queen herself is a crook; she's terrific. But she comes from a long line of people who, if we apply current standards, managed to transfer an exceptional amount of wealth to the British Isle as the expense of their colonies and dominions and whatever they called the current satrap.

I'm fairly sure you can say that about all inherited wealth everywhere. I@m a staunch advocate of abolishing the monarchy, but if you're going to take the Queen to task for her inherited wealth, stolen from someone else far back in time, then we're going to have to re-work the whole of society from the ground up. There'll be an awful lot of persons of Celtic ancestry coming back from the north and the west to reclaim their birthrights.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm fairly sure you can say that about all inherited wealth everywhere. I@m a staunch advocate of abolishing the monarchy, but if you're going to take the Queen to task for her inherited wealth, stolen from someone else far back in time, then we're going to have to re-work the whole of society from the ground up.
So this is just a kind of prove your wealth was obtained honestly unless if was obtained in Britain, in which case you're good? Or is it just aimed at those vulgar Russians?
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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So this is just a kind of prove your wealth was obtained honestly unless if was obtained in Britain, in which case you're good? Or is it just aimed at those vulgar Russians?
I would think it's more along the lines of "Prove that the wealth you've acquired, rather than inherited, was obtained honestly." You've got to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we'd be trying to find some Neanderthals to hand everything to; limiting this to his own actions, rather than those of other people, seems a reasonable place to draw it.

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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:55 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So this is just a kind of prove your wealth was obtained honestly unless if was obtained in Britain, in which case you're good? Or is it just aimed at those vulgar Russians?

I don't think you read what I wrote.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 10:50 PM   #15
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They should have asked this Yeltsin goon where he got his money long time ago, but business was booming and capitalism won *closes ears* lalalalala...
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:48 PM   #16
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Does Trump need a visa?
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Old 23rd May 2018, 12:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Feel free to trace back all the wealth that she has accumulated both in her lifetime and that which was inherited and show me that it was all obtained honestly by 2018 standards. I'm guessing that you can't and that a fair amount of it essentially involved robbing the colonies overseas.
It's your claim, you prove it. You can also move the goal-posts back to where they were. This is about "recent" and "sudden" acquisition of wealth, not quibbling about where someone's great-great-great-etc. garndparents got their money.

Quote:
ETA: I am not implying that the Queen herself is a crook; she's terrific. But she comes from a long line of people who, if we apply current standards, managed to transfer an exceptional amount of wealth to the British Isle as the expense of their colonies and dominions and whatever they called the current satrap.
You seem to be falling for the typical mistake of confusing the monarch/royal family with the state/government/country.

.

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Old 23rd May 2018, 01:25 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
We're too dependent on those oligarchs, whether they're Russian, from one of the former Soviet republics, the Middle East or they're part of the leadership of a former colony.
In what way? If they need visas they will not be UK residents and will not be paying tax on their wealth in the UK (other than tax on any transactions they make here, VAT, stamp duty etc).
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Old 23rd May 2018, 02:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
In what way? If they need visas they will not be UK residents and will not be paying tax on their wealth in the UK (other than tax on any transactions they make here, VAT, stamp duty etc).
Their money seems to keep parts of the UK housing market and luxury goods industry afloat. Managing their money provides useful income for certain parts of the financial services industry. IMO any contribution to the general exchequer from oligarchs would be negligible to to their effective tax management.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 04:52 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Their money seems to keep parts of the UK housing market and luxury goods industry afloat. Managing their money provides useful income for certain parts of the financial services industry. IMO any contribution to the general exchequer from oligarchs would be negligible to to their effective tax management.
If they all pulled out of the London property market, that alone would probably cause a crash. London: Come for the culture, stay for the money laundering.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 05:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
If they all pulled out of the London property market, that alone would probably cause a crash.
You say that like it's a bad thing....
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Old 23rd May 2018, 05:30 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You say that like it's a bad thing....
If the crash propagates downwards then millions of people will suffer a significant financial reversal. That in turn would seriously impact on consumer confidence leading to recession - so in the short to medium term it's likely to be a bad thing.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 06:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If the crash propagates downwards then millions of people will suffer a significant financial reversal. That in turn would seriously impact on consumer confidence leading to recession - so in the short to medium term it's likely to be a bad thing.

Yeah, but I and millions like me might be able to actually afford somewhere to live.

EDIT: For those who already own their own homes, and consider them a place in which to live, rather than in investment, a fall in value of the home really means nothing.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 06:07 AM   #24
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The Russians who would need to prove their wealth and have problems doing it, own luxury properties all over London, many of which lie empty.

If many of them went up for sale, the £5 million plus sector would likely see a dip in value, that would allow others to up scale, releasing the cheaper properties they were in.

This is not just Russians, but others from countries with large scale corruption.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 06:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, but I and millions like me might be able to actually afford somewhere to live.
Yes, in the longer-term this could be the outcome. OTOH if the collapse in house prices is accompanied by an economic downturn then the combination of fewer people in work and/or downward pressure on wages may result in houses being equally unaffordable.

The current combination of low interest rates and complacent lenders means that housing is somewhat affordable.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
EDIT: For those who already own their own homes, and consider them a place in which to live, rather than in investment, a fall in value of the home really means nothing.
Well yes, and no...

If the fall in house prices means that people are in negative equity then this will have an impact on those who own their houses and consider them a place to live, especially if they need to move through work or relationship breakup or whatever.

If the fall in house prices also puts the frighteners on lenders then we could be back to the immediately post-crash days of lenders requiring 20% or more by way of deposits, being far more picky about who they are willing to lend to (most likely only those who don't really need to borrow) and loan prices increasing for everyone.

Just because house prices fall, it doesn't necessarily follow that housing will be any more affordable or attainable.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 06:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, in the longer-term this could be the outcome. OTOH if the collapse in house prices is accompanied by an economic downturn then the combination of fewer people in work and/or downward pressure on wages may result in houses being equally unaffordable.

The current combination of low interest rates and complacent lenders means that housing is somewhat affordable.



Well yes, and no...

If the fall in house prices means that people are in negative equity then this will have an impact on those who own their houses and consider them a place to live, especially if they need to move through work or relationship breakup or whatever.

Well, it makes the house they're selling cheaper but also makes the house they're buying cheaper too.


Quote:
If the fall in house prices also puts the frighteners on lenders then we could be back to the immediately post-crash days of lenders requiring 20% or more by way of deposits, being far more picky about who they are willing to lend to (most likely only those who don't really need to borrow) and loan prices increasing for everyone.

Just because house prices fall, it doesn't necessarily follow that housing will be any more affordable or attainable.

I think it does for those that haven't already taken out a death loan on a place to live. Other factors may come into play and, please note, I'm not saying it would be a good outcome. I'm just saying that it's the only way that I'd ever be able to afford my own home. And, when say 'My own home', I just want a one bedroomed flat or a bedsit, commensurate with my level of success in life. I really don't want a mansion.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 07:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Well, it makes the house they're selling cheaper but also makes the house they're buying cheaper too.
If they have negative equity then unless they can magic some money from somewhere then it doesn't matter how cheap the house they are moving to is.

Example:

A couple owns a house currently worth £400k, with £50k of "equity" in the house, they have £350k of mortgage.

Their house price halves to £200k but they still have £350k owing on their mortgage.

The house they are buying has also halved in value to £150k (they're downsizing to save money) but they're out of luck because:
  • They cannot roll over their existing mortgage because then their £350k mortgage would be secured on a property worth £150k
  • If they use the proceeds of the sale to pay off the original mortgage, they're £150k short
  • If they walk away from their original property and default on their original mortgage they will ruin their credit history AND their lender can come after them for the shortfall

Negative equity also really slows down the property market as there are far fewer buyers and sellers (or at least that was the experience in 1990 and 2008).

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think it does for those that haven't already taken out a death loan on a place to live.
The thing is that it would hurt people most like you the most - those who have recently bought a property with a large mortgage.

The ones who will be hurt least are those like me who are sitting mortgage free. So the baby boomers will be hurt least and Generations X and Y will carry the can.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Other factors may come into play and, please note, I'm not saying it would be a good outcome. I'm just saying that it's the only way that I'd ever be able to afford my own home. And, when say 'My own home', I just want a one bedroomed flat or a bedsit, commensurate with my level of success in life. I really don't want a mansion.
I understand how you feel, it's one of the reasons that I've never been able to buy in London when I worked there.

You have alternatives, find a far better paying job and/or move to somewhere less unaffordable. I moved into Don Towers (4 bedrooms in and AONB with about 1/4 an acre) at the same time that a colleague moved into a 2 bed flat in South East London. My house was about 10% less costly but my commute time to offices near Heathrow took about the same time (a little under 2 hours each way)
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Old 23rd May 2018, 07:28 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You have alternatives, find a far better paying job and/or move to somewhere less unaffordable. I moved into Don Towers (4 bedrooms in and AONB with about 1/4 an acre) at the same time that a colleague moved into a 2 bed flat in South East London. My house was about 10% less costly but my commute time to offices near Heathrow took about the same time (a little under 2 hours each way)

I don't really want a better paying job. I'm really good at what I do and I enjoy it. It just pays bugger all. In order to earn more money I would need to stop doing what I do and I would need to play 'yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir' with my corporate masters as that, and not competence, is the primary driver of success at the coal face in a corporate environment.

Add into that the fact that, in 25 years I will be 70, I don't think it's too viable.

God know what I'll do when I retire. I am the pensions crisis.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 08:40 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, but I and millions like me might be able to actually afford somewhere to live.

EDIT: For those who already own their own homes, and consider them a place in which to live, rather than in investment, a fall in value of the home really means nothing.
^ This.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 08:46 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
^ This.
Well, except for those who will end up in negative equity - that gets uncomfortable in a hurry.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 01:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
We're too dependent on those oligarchs, whether they're Russian, from one of the former Soviet republics, the Middle East or they're part of the leadership of a former colony.

IMO we'll make a huge noise about vetting a couple of high profile cases - who will actually be comparatively clean and so can get clearance without us looking too suspect - and then quietly drop the idea and allow that dirty money to continue to flow into The City.
Bloody Russians. Coming here, buying up posh properties, with the poor ones taking over the East End and strutting around like they're superior.

Applying nerve gas or plutonium to defectors.

Tampering with elections and Brexit.

What England needs to do is reform Dad's Army. They don't like it up'em!
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Old 23rd May 2018, 01:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm fairly sure you can say that about all inherited wealth everywhere. I@m a staunch advocate of abolishing the monarchy, but if you're going to take the Queen to task for her inherited wealth, stolen from someone else far back in time, then we're going to have to re-work the whole of society from the ground up. There'll be an awful lot of persons of Celtic ancestry coming back from the north and the west to reclaim their birthrights.
Inherited wealth is perfectly lawful. The legal concept of direct descendant heirs goes back to the Middle Ages.

Many who acquired land in days of yore were knights, cavalry men and high up military who were rewarded by the King for help in battle (think William the Conqueror). This is honourable gain, not 'theft' or 'corruption'.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 01:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Inherited wealth is perfectly lawful. The legal concept of direct descendant heirs goes back to the Middle Ages.

Many who acquired land in days of yore were knights, cavalry men and high up military who were rewarded by the King for help in battle (think William the Conqueror). This is honourable gain, not 'theft' or 'corruption'.
Are you serious?

It was theft and extortion - just because it was a thousand years ago, and the Saxons had done the same to the Britons/Welsh, who had done it to the Beaker people... it doesn't make it honourable. It does make it practically (maybe completely) impossible to work our any compensation, though.
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 24th May 2018, 12:29 PM   #34
Cleon
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Heh, apparently Abramovich is looking for a solution - in Israel!
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