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Old 11th May 2018, 05:09 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What? Are you denying the existence of British immigrants from the Indian subcontinent?
No

I'm saying that people born before 1983 in a Commonwealth country do not automatically qualify for UK citizenship/
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:12 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Are you able to give me genuine examples (not'what-if's' and hypotheticals) of when someone born in England and has lived here all their life pre-1983 and they are barred from British citizenship.
Except that was not your claim. Your claim was that being born in the UK automatically conferred the right to claim UK citizenship.

The links you provided show that there are other criteria which have to be met, specifically that your parents were "settled" in the UK - i.e. had the right to be there without any time restrictions.
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:46 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Are you able to give me genuine examples (not'what-if's' and hypotheticals) of when someone born in England and has lived here all their life pre-1983 and they are barred from British citizenship...........
The goalposts just moved. That was not your original claim. Here it is again, just in case you'd forgotten:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's correct. As a direct result of Enoch Powell's speech ('the black man will soon have the whiphand') of 1968, and the support of 70% of the British Public, the 1971 Act was brought in to stop immigration from the Commonwealth, except for those who had at least one British grandparent.

British nationality is conferred by being born in Great Britain. Prior to 1971 it was any commonwealth country. After that it was only up until the date of the commonwealth country's date of independence.

Having 'British descent' as per bloodline does not confer British nationality.

People make the mistake of believing there is such a thing as the British race*. No, it is based on where you were born.

If you were born in the UK, prior to the 2014 Act, you are British, unless you renounced it in some way.

*According to 23+me the people with the highest percentage of British DNA are the Scots and Irish, with the English being a surprisingly high mix of French and German (up to 40%).
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:56 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...snip....
Goodness knows what all the above has to do with the incorrect claim that you made i.e. "..British nationality is conferred by being born in Great Britain... " This isn't semantic quibbling, your statement was clearly wrong.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:45 AM   #245
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More blatant Home Office lies?

Now the issue of "highly skilled migrants seeking indefinite leave to remain in the UK " is being met with H.O. lies (or is it merely 'being economical with the truth'?)

It seems that around 1,000 such people are facing possible deportation and immigration minister Caroline Nokes, after being asked about why she wasn't acting on this, replied “Because there have been only two working days since this issue was flagged up”.

"However, letters written by Nokes and obtained by the Guardian appear to show she was aware of the issue in February. They also suggest that concerns about the use of 322(5) were among the first issues she was made aware of when she took up the ministerial role in January."

I've followed some of these cases and they include such gems as people who made mistakes on tax returns, corrected and repaid voluntarily, being classed as 'a threat to national security'. In another case a wealthy Pakistani who runs a UK company made no error at all, and in fact the appeal court found it was the Home Office that made the mistake.

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Old 15th May 2018, 01:00 PM   #246
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And back with the original issue this is the latest depressing news:

Windrush: Sixty-three people may have been wrongly removed

Quote:
At least 63 members of the Windrush generation could have been wrongfully removed or deported from the UK since 2002, the home secretary has said.
Sajid Javid told the Home Affairs Select Committee 32 were foreign offenders and 31 people removed by officials rather than a court order.
He said the figures were provisional.
It was the first time specific numbers have been outlined since the scandal involving people who came to the UK from Commonwealth nations broke.
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Old 15th May 2018, 01:50 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And back with the original issue this is the latest depressing news:

Windrush: Sixty-three people may have been wrongly removed
Which, eventually, answers the question "Can you name one Windrush person who has actually been deported?" The Home Sec didn't name names, but no doubt he could.
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Old 15th May 2018, 02:05 PM   #248
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And all to pander to racists.

Already it takes a lot of effort to get skilled immigrants - even including specialist medical doctors where there are vacancies.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:42 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Goodness knows what all the above has to do with the incorrect claim that you made i.e. "..British nationality is conferred by being born in Great Britain... " This isn't semantic quibbling, your statement was clearly wrong.
I am afraid I am right, Darat. British nationality is founded on jus solis.

I am surprised people do not know or ( more likely ) want to deny that fact.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:44 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And back with the original issue this is the latest depressing news:

Windrush: Sixty-three people may have been wrongly removed
Which raises the question, how can he tell which ones have wrongly been removed...?
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:50 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Which, eventually, answers the question "Can you name one Windrush person who has actually been deported?" The Home Sec didn't name names, but no doubt he could.
He should protect people's right to privacy, so names not necessary. It's amazing though that British people are being detained, made to sign on 'immigration bail', deported, have their jobs, housing, NHS care and pensions removed.

I cannot see any excuse for it.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:52 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And all to pander to racists.

Already it takes a lot of effort to get skilled immigrants - even including specialist medical doctors where there are vacancies.
Astonishing story. One wonders if there is a BNP cabal controlling the Home Office.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:49 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am afraid I am right, Darat. British nationality is founded on jus solis.
Your initial claim, that being born in the UK confers a right to claim UK citizenship, is wrong - there are other criteria.

Indeed, your claim that British nationality is founded on jus soli is also wrong, or more accurately, is an oversimplification. From wiki:

Quote:
British Citizenship can be acquired in the following ways:
  1. lex soli: By birth in the UK or a qualified British Overseas Territory to a parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent who is settled in the UK or that Overseas Territory
  2. lex sanguinis: By birth abroad, which constitutes "by descent" if one of the parents is a British citizen otherwise than by descent (for example by birth, adoption, registration or naturalisation in the UK). British citizenship by descent is only transferable to one generation down from the parent who is a British citizen otherwise than by descent, if the child is born abroad.
  3. By naturalisation
  4. By registration
  5. By adoption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law



Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am surprised people do not know or ( more likely ) want to deny that fact.
They don't, they want to point out the factual inaccuracy in your original assertion.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:29 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And all to pander to racists.

Already it takes a lot of effort to get skilled immigrants - even including specialist medical doctors where there are vacancies.
Two policies one target audience, who could probably care less about the real world consequences.
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:50 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am afraid I am right, Darat. British nationality is founded on jus solis.

I am surprised people do not know or ( more likely ) want to deny that fact.
I refer you to the sources you provided that show your claim was wrong.
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Old 17th May 2018, 04:10 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
British nationality is founded on jus solis.
It seems fairly obvious that it's mostly a combination of jus soli and jus sanguinis. Jus soli on its own is not enough, except in a small number of very exception circumstances.
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:42 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It seems fairly obvious that it's mostly a combination of jus soli and jus sanguinis. Jus soli on its own is not enough, except in a small number of very exception circumstances.
Look, as I have explained (only to be mocked for taking the trouble) British nationality was by jus soli until 1981.

The only time jus sanguinis was applied was either 1963 or 1971 Immigration Act, the aim of which was to stem migration from the British Commonwealth. However, as 'race' was the impetus for these acts, a loophole (clause) was added so that people from the extant British colonies could still claim British nationality and the concommitant right to reside, if they had at least one British nationality grandparent. Such a person was more likely to be Australian , Canadian, New Zealander or South African. In effect, people whose grandparents, at least, had emigrated away from Britain in recent generations.

This solved the perceived problem of immigrants from the West Indies, Africa and the Indian subcontinent at a stroke.
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:45 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, as I have explained (only to be mocked for taking the trouble) British nationality was by jus soli until 1981.

The only time jus sanguinis was applied was either 1963 or 1971 Immigration Act, the aim of which was to stem migration from the British Commonwealth.

However, as 'race' was the impetus for these acts, a loophole (clause) was added so that people from the extant British colonies could still claim British nationality and the concommitant right to reside, if they had at least one British nationality grandparent. Such a person was more likely to be Australian , Canadian, New Zealander or South African. In effect, people whose grandparents, at least, had emigrated away from Britain in recent generations.

This solved the perceived problem of immigrants from the West Indies, Africa and the Indian subcontinent at a stroke.
No matter how accurate (or inaccurate) this may have been (even if you were born in the UK prior to 1983, your parents still had to be settled for you to be able to claim citizenship), that wasn't your original claim.

Your original claim was that being born in the UK allows you to claim UK citizenship - a claim that your own links refute
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:50 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, as I have explained (only to be mocked for taking the trouble) British nationality was by jus soli until 1981.
Then let's take the case of (say) a German couple, living and working in the UK in 1975. She's 7 months pregnant and planning to return to Germany to give birth. The birth is premature and the child survives.

Did that child automatically acquire UK citizenship purely by jus solis?
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:58 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Then let's take the case of (say) a German couple, living and working in the UK in 1975. She's 7 months pregnant and planning to return to Germany to give birth. The birth is premature and the child survives.

Did that child automatically acquire UK citizenship purely by jus solis?
If the child lives here continuously (with no more than two years outside of the EU at any one time) then it can indeed claim British nationality, provided this is done by age 18.

In reality, a German child who is only here transitorily isn't going to, as its parents would need to naturalise to become British themselves.
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:14 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the child lives here continuously (with no more than two years outside of the EU at any one time) then it can indeed claim British nationality, provided this is done by age 18.

In reality, a German child who is only here transitorily isn't going to, as its parents would need to naturalise to become British themselves.
Then your claim is false. There's more to it than just plain jus solis, as you have just conceded. This must be the 20th time this has been said. Jus solis does apply in the USA, but not the UK.
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Old 17th May 2018, 02:15 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, as I have explained (only to be mocked for taking the trouble) British nationality was by jus soli until 1981.

The only time jus sanguinis was applied was either 1963 or 1971 Immigration Act, the aim of which was to stem migration from the British Commonwealth. However, as 'race' was the impetus for these acts, a loophole (clause) was added so that people from the extant British colonies could still claim British nationality and the concommitant right to reside, if they had at least one British nationality grandparent. Such a person was more likely to be Australian , Canadian, New Zealander or South African. In effect, people whose grandparents, at least, had emigrated away from Britain in recent generations.

This solved the perceived problem of immigrants from the West Indies, Africa and the Indian subcontinent at a stroke.
OK, not jus sanguinis per se, but being born in the UK isn't enough in itself, as other conditions have to apply, mainly that at least one the parents should be legally settled/resident/whatever.
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Old 18th May 2018, 06:19 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Then your claim is false. There's more to it than just plain jus solis, as you have just conceded. This must be the 20th time this has been said. Jus solis does apply in the USA, but not the UK.
I am sorry. You are wrong.

From wiki, re the British Nationality Act 1981:

Quote:
Modification of jus soli
The Act also modified the application of jus soli in British nationality. Prior to the Act coming into force, any person born in the United Kingdom (with limited exceptions such as children of diplomats and enemy aliens) was entitled to British citizenship. After the Act came into force, it was necessary for at least one parent of a United Kingdom-born child to be a British citizen or "settled" in the United Kingdom (a permanent resident).
As an Act usually takes a couple of years to enact, this is why the government states all people born on recognised UK soil (ceteris paribus terms & conditions) before 1983 can assume British nationality.
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Old 18th May 2018, 06:31 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
OK, not jus sanguinis per se, but being born in the UK isn't enough in itself, as other conditions have to apply, mainly that at least one the parents should be legally settled/resident/whatever.
Only as from 1983, as we have been discussing.

The various immigration acts have added clauses to keep out various ethnic groups in lip service to popular 'Enoch is right' rhetoric. However, it doesn't negate the jus solis nature of British citizenship.

Countries are either jus solis or jus sanguinis. They are rarely both. If they are, this is because of clauses inserted to exempt various discrete categories (such as armed forces, diplomats, ex-emigrés, etc.,etc.,)

As an example of jus sanguinis I have dual nationality, the other being through jus sanguinis - direct maternal bloodline- even though I have never resided in this other country apart from three and a half years as a child. (This law has been modified now and you also have to show residence.)

If you want to be a citizen of this other country and you are not jus sanguinis, you have to prove residence for X number of years, learn the language to a certain standard (there is the option of the second national language, Swedish, so there is even a choice) and show 'close links' to the country (similar to the UK's citizenship requirement for aliens).

Denmark is similar.

The modifications to the British Nationality Act up to 2014, doesn't change it into jus sanguinis.
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Old 19th May 2018, 12:48 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only as from 1983, as we have been discussing.
As MikeG said, you have moved the goalposts from your original blanket claim that simply being born here is enough. It isn't, regardless of whether it once was.
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Old 19th May 2018, 08:41 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
As MikeG said, you have moved the goalposts from your original blanket claim that simply being born here is enough. It isn't, regardless of whether it once was.
.....and it wasn't, there were still other criteria...

Sorry would be more specific but am in Berlin on a stag, and am a bit "tired and emotional"....
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Old 22nd May 2018, 01:30 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sorry would be more specific but am in Berlin on a stag, and am a bit "tired and emotional"....
I can imagine. Riding a male deer (especially through those streets) must be tough.

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Old 25th May 2018, 01:38 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
As MikeG said, you have moved the goalposts from your original blanket claim that simply being born here is enough. It isn't, regardless of whether it once was.
Oh rubbish. You know perfectly well there is no need to give every sentence a full wikipedia rundown.

Mike himself said he personalises his comments to me as he likes to 'prove you wrong' just for the sake of it.
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Old 25th May 2018, 03:45 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I can imagine. Riding a male deer (especially through those streets) must be tough.

And a bit superfluous, given the excellent transport system there.
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Old 30th May 2018, 06:11 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh rubbish. You know perfectly well there is no need to give every sentence a full wikipedia rundown.

Mike himself said he personalises his comments to me as he likes to 'prove you wrong' just for the sake of it.
Nope absolutely you moved the goal posts. would you like me to requote your erroneous claim?
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