ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

Reply
Old 22nd December 2017, 03:14 AM   #81
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,434
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
One Mister Saddam Hussein would like to have a quiet word with you, regarding 1990-1991 and your incredibly false statement. So too would a few people in Korea. If you actually read the articles around which the collective security provisions are written, you will find that the UN can in fact compel, and it takes the UNSCR to do it. It's not often done.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Those did not actually force nations to take an action. They have no power to enforce their own rulings.
Bob is absolutely right there. The UN, specifically the SC, cannot compel any state to do something, the best they can do is authorize the use of force by other states against the offending state. Such authorization is done by a "Chapter VII" UNSC resolution, and often it's not clear whether a UNSCR is a Chapter VI or Chapter VII resolution because it's not spelled out in the wording. The resolutions against Saddam's Iraq are a case in point: the US and UK argued the existing resolutions authorized the use of force, whereas France, Russia and China thought not.

ETA: I mean the resolutions from 2002/2003 are contentious, those from 1990/1991 are not.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

Last edited by ddt; 22nd December 2017 at 03:16 AM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 11:15 AM   #82
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,907
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The UNSC can't actually compel anything any more than GA votes can.
It's not compulsion which makes UNSC votes significant.

Quote:
However between the two, GA resolutions are a more accurate description of the opinion of the UN's membership as a whole because GA resolutions cannot be vetoed by anyone.
That doesn't mean they matter very much. Indeed, the opinion of the UN's membership as a whole doesn't really matter much--especially not compared to the opinions that emerge from the deliberations of the five permanent members of the UNSC.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 12:33 PM   #83
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,994
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
One Mister Saddam Hussein would like to have a quiet word with you, regarding 1990-1991 and your incredibly false statement.
I believe the same Mister Saddam Hussein would've liked to have a quiet word with you regarding 2003 but he can't, because he was put to death three years later as the result of a military invasion by the US that took place contrary to the provisions of a UN Security Council resolution and the stated opinions of the overwhelming majority of its then-members, including three of the veto power members.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 12:34 PM   #84
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,994
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not compulsion which makes UNSC votes significant.
Then....what does, in your opinion? For the second time.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 02:34 PM   #85
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,994
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not compulsion which makes UNSC votes significant.
Then....what is it? For the second time.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 02:56 PM   #86
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,907
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Then....what does, in your opinion? For the second time.
The second time?
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Then....what is it? For the second time.
Oh.

Okay, sure: The UNSC gives the world's major powers a venue to discuss matters that touch on global stability and their own national security, avoiding misunderstandings and unnecessary escalations. An institution like the UNSC would have prevented the first World War. I think it probably could have prevented the second World War, as well. With the advent of nuclear weapons and the establishment of the MAD doctrine, the UNSC is even more important as an underwriter of world peace.

The question of compulsion is irrelevant to this core function of the UNSC. The resolutions themselves are secondary.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2017, 06:34 PM   #87
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,994
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The UNSC gives the world's major powers a venue to discuss matters that touch on global stability and their own national security, avoiding misunderstandings and unnecessary escalations.
Can you give an example of a time the UNSC has actually served that function - i.e., avoiding misunderstandings, and/or unnecessary escalations, between the world's major powers?
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2017, 03:18 AM   #88
Degeneve
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 798
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
An institution like the UNSC would have prevented the first World War. I think it probably could have prevented the second World War, as well.
As a matter of fact, the League of Nations, which was the forerunner of the UN did not prevent WW II from happening.

It is however true that the USA never became a member and that Germany, Italy and Japan withdrew from the organisation before WW II.

While I agree that the UN and the UNSC are great tools I am not sure they are sufficient to prevent large (or even small) scale wars in any case. After all they could not prevent the Rwandan genocide from happening or the USA to **** up the whole ME as from 2003.
Degeneve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2017, 06:01 AM   #89
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,265
Acheson Rule

The Palestinians have just realized they can now head towards being admitted as a full State member of the UN, using the Acheson Rule (UN Res. 377-A).

This Emergency Session vote on Jerusalem was a preliminary test --- and they passed it with flying colors.

Now comes the request to the UNSC for admittance as a State of Palestine, and a guaranteed American VETO. Arising from that, another Emergency Session will be called under the Acheson Rule (aka "Uniting for Peace") which provides for the General Assembly to essentially overrride the deadlock in the UNSC.

In other words, in January 2018, the State of Palestine will likely become a UN member (escalated from Observer status).

I happen to think it's going to be a Pyrrhic victory, but the fact remains they'll look upon it as a victory.
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd December 2017, 06:17 AM   #90
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,808
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The Palestinians have just realized they can now head towards being admitted as a full State member of the UN, using the Acheson Rule (UN Res. 377-A).

This Emergency Session vote on Jerusalem was a preliminary test --- and they passed it with flying colors.

Now comes the request to the UNSC for admittance as a State of Palestine, and a guaranteed American VETO. Arising from that, another Emergency Session will be called under the Acheson Rule (aka "Uniting for Peace") which provides for the General Assembly to essentially overrride the deadlock in the UNSC.

In other words, in January 2018, the State of Palestine will likely become a UN member (escalated from Observer status).

I happen to think it's going to be a Pyrrhic victory, but the fact remains they'll look upon it as a victory.

Interesting. Don't know how it would be pyrrhic as our favorite settler colony can't even throw 16 years old girls into dungeons for life without scrutiny these days, and has a couple of trained armies at their borders waiting for a silly move to happen.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2017, 03:11 AM   #91
JJM 777
Illuminator
 
JJM 777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,054
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
our favorite settler colony can't even throw 16 years old girls into dungeons for life without scrutiny
How lamentable.

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
and has a couple of trained armies at their borders
Hm. I think all neighbouring countries either walk in the leash of USA, or understand the military significance of 100% US support to Israel, or have too many problems of their own to attack anyone else. I don't see this threat scenario at all.
JJM 777 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2017, 03:15 AM   #92
JJM 777
Illuminator
 
JJM 777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,054
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
When was the last time the UN voted to condemn something the US did?
There is the annual crushing 99% - 1% vote to condemn the embargo on Cuba.
JJM 777 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2017, 03:17 AM   #93
JJM 777
Illuminator
 
JJM 777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,054
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
UNSC (...) It was a good design then, and it's still a good design today.
Some countries having "veto rights" and "permanent seats" is the most perverse depiction of "respect for democracy and equality of humans". It makes the whole UN morally dead and philosophically meaningless to the core.
JJM 777 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2017, 06:03 AM   #94
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Some countries having "veto rights" and "permanent seats" is the most perverse depiction of "respect for democracy and equality of humans". It makes the whole UN morally dead and philosophically meaningless to the core.
The UN is morally flawed due to dictatorships having voting rights. That flaw means that it is only a talking shop where countries can discuss their self interest - it has no moral authority (unlike a body of democracies).

As a real-politik talking shop , it makes perfect sense for the most powerful countries to have a veto - it prevents them from having to veto the old fashioned way (with force)
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2017, 09:32 AM   #95
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,907
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Some countries having "veto rights" and "permanent seats" is the most perverse depiction of "respect for democracy and equality of humans". It makes the whole UN morally dead and philosophically meaningless to the core.
What do you think is the purpose of the security council?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 05:32 AM   #96
Roofgardener
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Did anybody happen to notice that yesterday the entirety of the OIC unanimously declared that it no longer recognizes the US as the impartial facilitator of the Israel/Palestine peace process, and is currently seeking another nation to fulfil that role?
Is this the OIC that has its headquarters in Tehran, the capital of a country that historically encourages its citizens to take to the streets chanting "Death To America" ? (Most recently in 2015 by it's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei ? ).

Is this the OIC that simultaneously decries US recognition of Jerusalem as being the capital of Israel, on the grounds of breaching UN resolutions relating to the "status" of the city, and then declares East Jerusalem as being the capital of the State of Palestine and publicly urged all other nations to follow suite ?

Has the OIC ever actually been involved in any meaningful way in the peace process ANYWAY ? I don't think so.

And yet suddenly they are the arbiters of who may be involved in the peace process ?

Yeah... right.
Roofgardener is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 07:00 AM   #97
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Is this the OIC that has its headquarters in Tehran, the capital of a country that historically encourages its citizens to take to the streets chanting "Death To America" ? (Most recently in 2015 by it's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei ? ).

Is this the OIC that simultaneously decries US recognition of Jerusalem as being the capital of Israel, on the grounds of breaching UN resolutions relating to the "status" of the city, and then declares East Jerusalem as being the capital of the State of Palestine and publicly urged all other nations to follow suite ?

Has the OIC ever actually been involved in any meaningful way in the peace process ANYWAY ? I don't think so.

And yet suddenly they are the arbiters of who may be involved in the peace process ?

Yeah... right.
The opinion of the 57 varieties of dysfunctional failure making up the OIC don't amount to a tin of beans.

It's like polling the Warsaw pact for their opinion on Divided Berlin.

(Edited to update for the prestige's suggestion)

Last edited by Giz; 26th December 2017 at 07:24 AM.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 07:02 AM   #98
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,907
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The opinion of the 57 varieties of dysfunctional failure making up the OIC don't amount to a tin of beans.

It's like polling the Warsaw pact for their opinion of Reagan.
For their opinion on Divided Berlin, I think.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 07:05 AM   #99
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13,355
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The opinion of the 57 varieties of dysfunctional failure making up the OIC don't amount to a tin of beans.

It's like polling the Warsaw pact for their opinion of Reagan.
The opinions of the Warsaw pact does seem to matter. If their opinions were different or changed then that changes the cold war.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 07:21 AM   #100
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For their opinion on Divided Berlin, I think.
Yes, that's an apt improvement.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 09:41 AM   #101
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,516
Reduction of US Contribution to UN
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 09:58 AM   #102
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,146
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The opinion of the 57 varieties of dysfunctional failure making up the OIC don't amount to a tin of beans.

It's like polling the Warsaw pact for their opinion on Divided Berlin....
About as dysfunctional as Trump?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 10:02 AM   #103
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,132
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Some countries having "veto rights" and "permanent seats" is the most perverse depiction of "respect for democracy and equality of humans". It makes the whole UN morally dead and philosophically meaningless to the core.
Not even close.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 10:12 AM   #104
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 7,836
Netanyahu is a blithering idiot, and, just like Trump, is quite willing to take extremist positions for personal and partisan gain. He should be careful what he wishes for, as one outcome is a growing call for a one-state solution among many in the region. Fastest way to disappear Israel, either as a Jewish homeland, or as a democracy. Having to finally make the tough choice between these two incompatible options, easier to avoid under the status quo ante, is now a political hot potato speeding toward Tel Aviv and demanding a real, and uncomfortable, response.

Achilles forgot all about his tender heel, and went dancing. Wheelchair coming up.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time videogaming.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 10:23 AM   #105
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
About as dysfunctional as Trump?
If you truly think that the USA under trump is as bad as any of the OIC, then you have lost the plot.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 10:51 AM   #106
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,132
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
About as dysfunctional as Trump?
Even more dysfunctional than Dump. Amazingly.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 11:43 AM   #107
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,146
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
If you truly think that the USA under trump is as bad as any of the OIC, then you have lost the plot.
Oh come on. Trump is truly mentally dysfunctional. Trump announcing the US moving the embassy to Jerusalem has caused more fighting with deaths and no benefit except to Netanyahu's ego. How was that not a dysfunctional move?

As for the US being an honest broker, clearly we're not and Trump made that even more clear.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 01:03 PM   #108
Roofgardener
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh come on. Trump is truly mentally dysfunctional. Trump announcing the US moving the embassy to Jerusalem has caused more fighting with deaths and no benefit except to Netanyahu's ego. How was that not a dysfunctional move?

As for the US being an honest broker, clearly we're not and Trump made that even more clear.
The move was the clear - almost unanimous - decision of Congress, so presumably THEY are all disfunctional as well ?

As for "more fighting with deaths"... umm.... I was under the impression that the Embassy move has caused no more demonstrations, fighting, injury or deaths than occur EVERY Friday in the occupied terrories. (just after "prayers").
Roofgardener is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 01:07 PM   #109
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,252
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh come on. Trump is truly mentally dysfunctional. Trump announcing the US moving the embassy to Jerusalem has caused more fighting with deaths and no benefit except to Netanyahu's ego. How was that not a dysfunctional move?

As for the US being an honest broker, clearly we're not and Trump made that even more clear.
To address your first point, that Trump is deplorable does not mean that the OIC is not more deplorable.

Secondly, we should be less concerned about the USA being an impartial broker and more about it being a moral broker (which is where it seems to be)
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 01:13 PM   #110
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,907
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
About as dysfunctional as Trump?
Comparing entire nations, with all their history and all their cultural institutions, to a single temporary office holder? How does that make sense in your mind?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 03:19 PM   #111
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,141
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
There is the annual crushing 99% - 1% vote to condemn the embargo on Cuba.
U.N. calls again for end of U.S. embargo on Cuba (Reuters, Nov. 1, 2017)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 03:25 PM   #112
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,141
Repeat, sorry.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th December 2017 at 03:26 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 04:19 PM   #113
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Those did not actually force nations to take an action. They have no power to enforce their own rulings.
That is false. History has shown that the UNSC rulings, when carried out the member nations, do in fact result in someone being compelled. I cite the two examples I already noted as historical fact.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Bob is absolutely right there.
The UN has only been able to act when the member nations can be bothered to, usually under a UNSCR. As I stated clearly, those occasions are rare but they do in fact transpire now and again. (See also the early intervention in the Bosnia/Former Yugoslavia civil are, and the long standing peacekeeping forces in the Sinai. )
Quote:
I mean the resolutions from 2002/2003 are contentious, those from 1990/1991 are not.
The UN did NOT do in 2003 as was done in 1991, and I would ask any of you to please remember that I made no mention of the lack of UNSCR consensus in 2003, from which a whole pile of political mess has followed.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I believe the same Mister Saddam Hussein would've liked to have a quiet word with you regarding 2003
I think not, Joshua. Please read my posts a bit more clearly, and also please recall that I was neither the President of the US, the Prime Minister of the UK, nor anywhere on the UNSC in any official capacity. Suggest you also look closely at the list of heads of state in the "coalition of the willing" who were interested in taking collective action ... which they did for better and worse, and indeed for Mr Hussein it was for worse. Had he not spend the 12 years previous to that jerking around with the UNSCR's that were part and parcel to the 1991 cessation of hostilities, there'd have been no thin end of the political wedge for those who were interested in having at him to use as a political football. But it was there, so it was used.

That, sir, is politics. Neither you nor I have to like it, but that's how it works.

@dann: the UN only works and does things when the UNSC and the key members of that body get on board with a cause.
When a veto wielding power vetoes a resolution, it's over.
That is by design.
The Powers who make up the permanent members would never have joined into the organization were it otherwise.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

Last edited by Darth Rotor; 26th December 2017 at 04:23 PM.
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 04:29 PM   #114
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,146
Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
The move was the clear - almost unanimous - decision of Congress, so presumably THEY are all disfunctional as well ?

As for "more fighting with deaths"... umm.... I was under the impression that the Embassy move has caused no more demonstrations, fighting, injury or deaths than occur EVERY Friday in the occupied terrories. (just after "prayers").
You can't blame the Congress for anything but phony bluster. It's no different than repealing the ACA how many times? when they knew Obama would veto it. When they got caught in the lie having a GOP POTUS, turns out they had no replacement plan.

As for your statement there weren't deaths directly related to Trump's announcement, cite some evidence, not just your anti-Muslim POV.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 04:32 PM   #115
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,146
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
To address your first point, that Trump is deplorable does not mean that the OIC is not more deplorable.

Secondly, we should be less concerned about the USA being an impartial broker and more about it being a moral broker (which is where it seems to be)
I did not use the adjective, deplorable. That has a different definition and Trump is indeed deplorable. I used the description: truly mentally dysfunctional. That has a different meaning, which I have supported at length in the Trump has a mental illness thread.

As for the morality, ho hum, yet another Israeli-Palestinian debate thread for which no actual debate is possible.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th December 2017 at 04:33 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 07:36 PM   #116
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,434
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The opinion of the 57 varieties of dysfunctional failure making up the OIC don't amount to a tin of beans.

It's like polling the Warsaw pact for their opinion on Divided Berlin.
Say what you will about the OIC, but it does include the two Arab states neighbouring Palestine - Egypt and Jordan - that have made peace with Israel, as well as the three Arab states that are technically still at war with Israel from 1948 onwards - Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. I think that for that reason alone, their opinion does matter.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th December 2017, 07:48 PM   #117
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,434
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
That is false. History has shown that the UNSC rulings, when carried out the member nations, do in fact result in someone being compelled. I cite the two examples I already noted as historical fact.

The UN has only been able to act when the member nations can be bothered to, usually under a UNSCR. As I stated clearly, those occasions are rare but they do in fact transpire now and again. (See also the early intervention in the Bosnia/Former Yugoslavia civil are, and the long standing peacekeeping forces in the Sinai. )
I have the impression this is mainly semantic quibbling. But we seem to be in agreement that the UN only acts when (1) it authorizes action, and (2) member states are interested in actually carrying out that action. A dramatic failure of (2) is the Rwandan genocide, where according to the estimate of the Canadian commander of the UN forces, a few hundred extra UN soldiers would have prevented it, but the UN member states could not be bothered to give them.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
The UN did NOT do in 2003 as was done in 1991, and I would ask any of you to please remember that I made no mention of the lack of UNSCR consensus in 2003, from which a whole pile of political mess has followed.
It was not directly clear to which conflict you referred to when you mentioned Saddam, thanks for clarifying, and I already thought as much.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2017, 08:22 AM   #118
Roofgardener
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can't blame the Congress for anything but phony bluster. It's no different than repealing the ACA how many times? when they knew Obama would veto it. When they got caught in the lie having a GOP POTUS, turns out they had no replacement plan.

As for your statement there weren't deaths directly related to Trump's announcement, cite some evidence, not just your anti-Muslim POV.
What a curious response. Your statements are entirely illogical, and your ad-hominem attack against myself is offensive.

So when Congress votes for a bill, they are innocent. When Donald Trump implements that bill, he is responsible for deaths, even when those deaths occur every week in the area concerned ?

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...226-story.html
Roofgardener is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2017, 08:58 AM   #119
Crawtator
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 237
"Elsewhere in the region, President Obama is committed to maintaining robust security cooperation with Gulf Cooperation Council states and our other partners aimed at deterring aggression, checking Iran’s destabilizing activities, ensuring the free flow of commerce essential to the global economy, and building a regional security architecture to counter terrorism, proliferation, ballistic missiles, piracy, and other common threats. Jerusalem is and will remain the capital of Israel. The parties have agreed that Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations. It should remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths."

DNC party platform - 2012

How is the moving of the embassy to the capital of Israel (as recognized by both major political parties in the US) a highly idiotic and partisan move by the president?

Sometimes the rhetoric on this site is over the top...
Crawtator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #120
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,517
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I have the impression this is mainly semantic quibbling. But we seem to be in agreement that the UN only acts when (1) it authorizes action, and (2) member states are interested in actually carrying out that action. A dramatic failure of (2) is the Rwandan genocide, where according to the estimate of the Canadian commander of the UN forces, a few hundred extra UN soldiers would have prevented it, but the UN member states could not be bothered to give them.
He may or may not have been right, predictions are a funny thing, and I don't think that small of a force would have made the difference, but we'll never know because as you say, the UN as a Collective Security Organization decided to do no more than it already had done. Not for the first time, and not for the last time. (I seem to recall W.J. Clinton observing that had he a do-over during his term, that's one he'd like to make a different decision on).


On your points 1 and 2, yes, we have an accord.
Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
"Elsewhere in the region, President Obama is committed to maintaining robust security cooperation with Gulf Cooperation Council states and our other partners aimed at deterring aggression, checking Iran’s destabilizing activities, ensuring the free flow of commerce essential to the global economy, and building a regional security architecture to counter terrorism, proliferation, ballistic missiles, piracy, and other common threats. Jerusalem is and will remain the capital of Israel. The parties have agreed that Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations. It should remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths."

DNC party platform - 2012

How is the moving of the embassy to the capital of Israel (as recognized by both major political parties in the US) a highly idiotic and partisan move by the president?

Sometimes the rhetoric on this site is over the top...
The politics sub forum is where skepticism goes to die. That opinion was offered on the JREF almost a decade ago (IIRC by RandFan) and we now have three politics forum. The death wish seems to be increasing.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:29 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.