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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

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Old 17th May 2018, 07:26 AM   #281
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Will you be equally vehement when the inevitable terrorist attack on Israeli Civilians occurs?
Your approach is as one sided as Ziggurat's.
I doubt you care with regard to your indiscriminate "just world hypothesis" reasoning, but I have held a range of views on the conflict over the past decade. The more I learn about it, the more I learn about human rights atrocities, the more I learn about oppression and armed conflict, the more I realize that what Israel is doing is really, really ********** up.

Condemnations occur within a context. The vehemence of my condemnations of Israel occurs within the context of, one, Israel, having one of the world's most capable militaries (maybe the most capable, man for man), does not have to resort to this kind of excessive force, and would not, if it placed a value on the life of Palestinian civilians. Two, the justifications cited by Israel are abhorrent ("It's an armed conflict and they are thus all combatants" is an excuse that goes back to at least the Armenian Genocide). Three, the scale of it. Four, the fact that the protests occur within a context of resisting an occupation imposed and maintained by Israel. Five, Israel and their cheerleaders love to beat on the drum that Israel deserves support because it is such an amazing and functional democracy. Guess what? Beating on that drum means you don't get to equate Israel with Hamas.

And is that what you really want to do? Do you really want to equate the Israeli government to Hamas? A politically radical Islamist group that represent the very worst of the 20th century story of political failure in the Arab world?
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Old 17th May 2018, 07:30 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, you still haven't come to terms with what happened. They were not only trying to breach the fence. Are you seriously unaware of what the next step would be? Are you seriously not aware of who exactly got killed?
Fears of hypthetical future events do not justify the kind of massacre the Israeli miliatry engaged in. The onus is on Israel to, since it has chosen to maintain occupation and blockade of Gaza, to solve this with an acceptable degree of violence.

Who exactly got killed? Here's what that trustworthy source, the Israeli military says: "... at least 24 of the Palestinians it killed on Monday were linked to Islamic Jihad or Hamas"

Wow, okay, they "were linked to" these groups. I'm sure the Israeli military were immediately able to identify them and did not do their best to cobble together post-hoc justifications after the fact. If they did not pose an _immediate_ threat to life and limb, there was no justification in the use of lethal force, no matter their "links".
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:04 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Fears of hypthetical future events do not justify the kind of massacre the Israeli miliatry engaged in.
TubbaBlubba, it wasn't a hypothetical future event. It was literally an attack in progress. It was a cross-border raid to take hostages. It used the fiction of a protest to screen the initial approach and provide propaganda cover.

Your insistence on holding Israel responsible for the raids that Hamas plans and carries out - your refusal to even acknowledge that Hamas is planning and executing such raids - is increasingly difficult to interpret as anything other than anti-Jewish bigotry. At the very least, repeating Hamas's propaganda is effectively anti-semitic.
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:07 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
If they did not pose an _immediate_ threat to life and limb, there was no justification in the use of lethal force, no matter their "links".
In warfare, defeating enemy forces before they pose an immediate existential threat to your soldiers and civilians is generally considered the superior strategy.
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:10 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Fears of hypthetical future events do not justify the kind of massacre the Israeli miliatry engaged in. The onus is on Israel to, since it has chosen to maintain occupation and blockade of Gaza, to solve this with an acceptable degree of violence.
What counts as "acceptable"? What are the criteria for evaluating this?

Because it sounds like you would be happier if only more Jews had been killed. Then you could say it was a proportionate response. But that's perverse.

Quote:
Who exactly got killed? Here's what that trustworthy source, the Israeli military says: "... at least 24 of the Palestinians it killed on Monday were linked to Islamic Jihad or Hamas"
Hamas said that 50 of the 60 dead were its members. Do you think they are lying about that? Because I don't. It's an admission against interest.

But no, it's all got to be lies by the Israeli military. Can't possibly be true. Why, Mossad must have infiltrated the heart of Hamas themselves to spread that lie! indeed.

Quote:
Wow, okay, they "were linked to" these groups. I'm sure the Israeli military were immediately able to identify them and did not do their best to cobble together post-hoc justifications after the fact.
You don't get it. Israel obviously COULD NOT identify them during the clashes. That's not the claim at all. And yet, they're almost all members of terrorist groups. How could that be, if Israel couldn't identify them at the time?

The answer starts with the obvious observation that they could not be identified by their group affiliation, but only by their actions. But it's not a coincidence that the people identified by their actions turn out to be so strongly correlated with certain groups. That correlation is evidence of the kind of actions by which these people were identified during the conflict. What actions could those possibly be? It's a complete mystery!

Quote:
If they did not pose an _immediate_ threat to life and limb, there was no justification in the use of lethal force, no matter their "links".
That's not how war works. And this was absolutely an act of war. You have to ignore what Hamas is saying to deny that.
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:18 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Condemnations occur within a context. The vehemence of my condemnations of Israel occurs within the context of, one, Israel, having one of the world's most capable militaries (maybe the most capable, man for man), does not have to resort to this kind of excessive force, and would not, if it placed a value on the life of Palestinian civilians.
I keep hearing this claim, but nothing to back it up. Give me a reasoned analysis based on the actual facts on the ground for how an alternative strategy could have been used. Otherwise, this is just wish fulfillment.

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Two, the justifications cited by Israel are abhorrent ("It's an armed conflict and they are thus all combatants" is an excuse that goes back to at least the Armenian Genocide).
I don't think Israel ever said that.

Quote:
Three, the scale of it.
What about the scale of it? Again, you have nothing to back this up with.

Quote:
Four, the fact that the protests occur within a context of resisting an occupation imposed and maintained by Israel.
First, you keep calling this a protest, but it wasn't. It was an attack. Second, the "context" for this attack was moving the US embassy to Jerusalem. The Palestinians can go **** themselves if they think they have any say about that. Just like I don't expect Israel to have any say in where the US puts its Saudi Arabian embassy.
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:41 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Hard line positions do not accept responsibility for their actions, because if they are not fully resolved of the absolute justification for their actions, with no offsets for their own culpability, then there is ultimately no real justification for a hard line course of action.
That's a nice blanket statement, how do you see it applying here?
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:57 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Take a look at the Knesset. The government consists of eight different parties. The opposition consists of nine different parties. Israel is not a country of political unity. Military jingoism and stoking conflicts provides a semblance of unity in a country with a lot of divisions and a lot of tensions.
1. The government consists of eight different parties. The opposition consists of nine different parties. Israel is not a country of political unity.

2. Military jingoism and stoking conflicts provides a semblance of unity in a country with a lot of divisions and a lot of tensions


When you present these factoids in the same paragraph, you imply a relationship between them. What do you believe is the relationship between these factoids?
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Old 17th May 2018, 08:58 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
...
First, you keep calling this a protest, but it wasn't. It was an attack. ...
What was important, in my opinion, was not what the Palestinian demonstrators were allegedly planning to do, but what they actually and really did (which is very little, just damaging the border fence). Killing 60 people for that was grossly excessive, and even more so when the broader political and social context is considered. I mean, mostly because of Israel, the Gaza Strip is considered a open air prison. Is it not normal to try to escape a prison? How can you blame people for trying to do that?
Quote:
Second, the "context" for this attack was moving the US embassy to Jerusalem. The Palestinians can go **** themselves if they think they have any say about that. Just like I don't expect Israel to have any say in where the US puts its Saudi Arabian embassy.
Things are not so simple , because the US might build its new embassy in East Jerusalem (this has never been clearly specified by Trump, I think) which, according to international law (which does not recognize "conquest") is not in Israel, but either in Palestine or in Jordan.
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Old 17th May 2018, 09:03 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
A flexible hard line, is not much of a hard line.
"Hard line" just refers to the location and size of the party's Overton Window for negotiation, relative to the desires and goals of the counterparty in the negotiation. The Israelis (and the Palestinians) may be said to be taking a hard line because their Overton Windows have almost zero overlap, even though they're each willing to negotiate within their respective windows.
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Old 17th May 2018, 09:26 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
What was important, in my opinion, was not what the Palestinian demonstrators were allegedly planning to do, but what they actually and really did (which is very little, just damaging the border fence). Killing 60 people for that was grossly excessive, and even more so when the broader political and social context is considered.
If someone runs at you with a knife, you are entitled to shoot them. You don't have to wait until you have been stabbed to defend yourself.
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Old 17th May 2018, 09:27 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
What was important, in my opinion, was not what the Palestinian demonstrators were allegedly planning to do, but what they actually and really did (which is very little, just damaging the border fence).
It's not alleged. Hamas has been open about it.

And since when has the justification for self-defense relied upon what the attacker has already accomplished? Never, in any rational view. Your argument requires that Hamas actually kill some Jews before Israel strikes back. Or to be even more blunt, the situation would be improved if only more Jews were dead.

Quote:
Killing 60 people for that was grossly excessive
They weren't killed just for damaging a fence.

Quote:
I mean, mostly because of Israel, the Gaza Strip is considered a open air prison.
This is an appeal to emotion. It is not a logical argument.

Quote:
Is it not normal to try to escape a prison? How can you blame people for trying to do that?
Why are you ignoring what Hamas themselves have said that they were trying to do? This was not an escape attempt. Calling it that is a lie. You are making up lies to defend Hamas that even Hamas is not claiming. Why?

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Things are not so simple , because the US might build its new embassy in East Jerusalem
What the hell are you talking about? The embassy is already open. We know exactly where it is. It's in the same building we've been using for years as a consulate. The only change is the designation.
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Old 17th May 2018, 09:49 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not alleged. Hamas has been open about it.

And since when has the justification for self-defense relied upon what the attacker has already accomplished? Never, in any rational view. Your argument requires that Hamas actually kill some Jews before Israel strikes back. Or to be even more blunt, the situation would be improved if only more Jews were dead.



They weren't killed just for damaging a fence.



This is an appeal to emotion. It is not a logical argument.



Why are you ignoring what Hamas themselves have said that they were trying to do? This was not an escape attempt. Calling it that is a lie. You are making up lies to defend Hamas that even Hamas is not claiming. Why?



What the hell are you talking about? The embassy is already open. We know exactly where it is. It's in the same building we've been using for years as a consulate. The only change is the designation.
No, I think that's a temporary one, another one (a new one) is planned, I believe.
Quote:
While the United States plans eventually to build an entirely new embassy building in Jerusalem, Monday’s largely symbolic move will send the ambassador’s office and about 50 staff members, including consular officers, to a separate, already existing U.S. facility in Jerusalem that has handled passport renewals for Americans and visa applications for local residents.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/opening-us...opstories.html

I frankly don't trust Hamas too much, and the document in Arabic which has been shown by Giz in this thread could be a fake, or misleading in various ways. If Palestinians had escaped into Israel, and if they had been a clear threat to Israeli citizens, brandishing a knife and yelling threats for example, then, I think, Israeli citizens would have had a right to defend themselves, possibly using a firearm. But nothing even close happened.
I believe there is not much that Israel can do, because Israel is guilty of occupation, arrogance is not acceptable.

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Old 17th May 2018, 09:57 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Fears of hypthetical future events do not justify the kind of massacre the Israeli miliatry engaged in. The onus is on Israel to, since it has chosen to maintain occupation and blockade of Gaza, to solve this with an acceptable degree of violence.

Who exactly got killed? Here's what that trustworthy source, the Israeli military says: "... at least 24 of the Palestinians it killed on Monday were linked to Islamic Jihad or Hamas"

Wow, okay, they "were linked to" these groups. I'm sure the Israeli military were immediately able to identify them and did not do their best to cobble together post-hoc justifications after the fact. If they did not pose an _immediate_ threat to life and limb, there was no justification in the use of lethal force, no matter their "links".
I agree with TubbaBlubba. The 1948 war was a disaster for the Arabs and nothing much has changed since then. The Arab countries were unable to cooperate militarily. It has been suggested that the Palestinians should adopt the policies of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. by being non-violent and stop firing fireworks into Israel. The trouble is they get shot dead by the Israelis for being non-violent. MI5 used to be opposed to Zionist terrorists but they have now succumbed to Jewish pressure and now just blame everything on the Russians by telling lies about the Russians.

I agree that Arab diplomacy has been crap and that they have foolishly rejected the chance of a two state solution before and during the war. The trouble is Israel is now determined to bomb Iran supported by America. That has nothing to do with international law and it can only damage the wealth of the world, and drag and draw us into it. Qatar seems to have a sane government with regard to all this and Oman has been more moderate about it all in the past.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:04 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, I think that's a temporary one, another one (a new one) is planned, I believe.
But according to you, the Israelis shouldn't act based on future hypotheticals. But the Palestinians apparently get to. Why the double standard? No, don't bother answering. At this point, that's just a rhetorical question.

Quote:
If Palestinians had escaped into Israel,and if they were a clear threats to Israeli citizens, brandishing a knife and yelling threats for example, then, I think, Israeli citizens would have had a right to defend themselves, possibly using a firearm. But nothing even close happened.
There WERE weapons being brandished. And had Hamas been able to break through into civilian areas, many civilians would not be able to defend themselves. Granting them permission to do so would be cold comfort. Your approach still amounts to wishing there were more dead Jews, as if balancing the scales with more corpses somehow improves things.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:14 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post


There WERE weapons being brandished. And had Hamas been able to break through into civilian areas, many civilians would not be able to defend themselves. Granting them permission to do so would be cold comfort. Your approach still amounts to wishing there were more dead Jews, as if balancing the scales with more corpses somehow improves things.
At this point, it beggers belief that anyone could still be supporting the position that Israel should have let in an armed mob intent on murder and hostage taking.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:19 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In warfare, defeating enemy forces before they pose an immediate existential threat to your soldiers and civilians is generally considered the superior strategy.
Why in the world are you adopting the rhetoric of those who commit genoicde? It doesn't help your case at all.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:20 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What counts as "acceptable"? What are the criteria for evaluating this?
What, you want a bullet point list? Is there any amount of violence that you yourself would not find acceptable? Or do you simply think we have to take Israeli leadership at their word?
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:23 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because it sounds like you would be happier if only more Jews had been killed. Then you could say it was a proportionate response. But that's perverse.
Scores of civillians are shot dead and you think this is a matter of me being "happier"? I'd only be happier if fewer people died. I would be less outraged at the Israeli military if they had not shot people who did not pose an immediate threat.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:25 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
FWIW, the same goes for Palestininan leadership, by and large. It's not exactly a secret that Arafat had zero interest in any resolution of the conflict.
It's not a secret that neither Mahmoud Abbas nor Khaled Mashal have any interest in peace either, yet your conspiracy theory focuses solely on the supposed benefits to the Israeli government of continued conflict.

Israel doesnít have a path to peace. There is no magic button to push or words to say that will finalize a two-state solution and put an end to Hamasís goal of destroying Israel.

The same is not true for the Palestinians. Nothing stops Hamas from recognizing Israel and agreeing to abide by previous agreements made by the PNA. Nothing stops Abbas from proclaiming itís time to go back to the negotiation table to finalize borders and other issues.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:33 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Israel doesn’t have a path to peace. There is no magic button to push or words to say that will finalize a two-state solution and put an end to Hamas’s goal of destroying Israel.

The same is not true for the Palestinians. Nothing stops Hamas from recognizing Israel and agreeing to abide by previous agreements made by the PNA. Nothing stops Abbas from proclaiming it’s time to go back to the negotiation table to finalize borders and other issues.
Oh please. So anything Israel does (e.g. agreeing to a two-state solution according to the 1967 borders) isn't a path to peace because of course Hamas will just continue to try and destroy it. But according to you, the Palestinian authorities should just trust the goodwill of Israel and hand over whatever resembling bargaining chips they still own. Yeah, right.

Israel is in a position of power. It can afford to make peace overtures, gestures of goodwill, hand back land annexed by settlers, end the blockade, etc.

Quote:
It's not a secret that neither Mahmoud Abbas nor Khaled Mashal have any interest in peace either, yet your conspiracy theory focuses solely on the supposed benefits to the Israeli government of continued conflict.
That is ridiculous! You just QUOTED me saying that Palestinian leadership use the conflict to their advantage in the same way, by and large. Can I say nothing bad about Israel unless I make a statement where I assert that the Palestinians are ten times worse in the same post?
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:43 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
What, you want a bullet point list?
I want some sort of criteria by which to evaluate this, to see whether your conclusion is justified or not. You have provided none. And sure, we don't generally write out every single thing we take into consideration on this sort of issue, nor am I asking you to. But you have provided nothing at all on which I can evaluate your position. I'm left wondering if, at the end of the day, you can even justify your position to yourself.

Quote:
Is there any amount of violence that you yourself would not find acceptable?
I'm sure there is. For example, if most of the dead were random civilians, if the casualty mix was a mix of young and old, male and female, instead of mostly military-age males, that would be a pretty good indicator that excessive force was used.

Quote:
Or do you simply think we have to take Israeli leadership at their word?
You don't have to do anything. It's even possible to withhold judgment.

But you aren't simply not taking Israel's word for it. You have decided that they are lying. But again, on what basis?
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:44 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
... Israel doesnít have a path to peace. There is no magic button to push or words to say that will finalize a two-state solution and put an end to Hamasís goal of destroying Israel.
Been feeling your pain, now that I find I must oppose Israeli policy categorically, given its blatant turn to theocracy in all but name. Nevertheless, I also disagree with your point above, in that there has been a very proactive policy in place to create facts on the ground in the West Bank in the form of the settlements, as well as the route taken by the Wall. Each violate international law, and as far as the legitimacy of state actors and actions are concerned, that is all that matters. Knowing that there have been little efforts to alleviate the housing shortage in Israel proper, leading to economic migration to the far more affordable West Bank, makes an even greater mockery of Israeli hand-waving.

I accept Israel has had no good-faith partners and has faced, and still faces, existential threats. However, the smart move was to co-opt the hell out of the Palestinians through incremental economic ties, pulling the two states together. That's been done, but not with the same urgency as other, far more aggressive measures. Regardless, once it is a religious war, no side is "right," so neither may claim the political allegiance of secular third parties. Really sad times.
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Old 17th May 2018, 10:50 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Scores of civillians are shot dead and you think this is a matter of me being "happier"?
Yes, I do, because your response has been a purely emotional one. Nothing about it contains any logical analysis of the actual situation at hand.

Quote:
I'd only be happier if fewer people died. I would be less outraged at the Israeli military if they had not shot people who did not pose an immediate threat.
How exactly do you know how much of a threat the people who were shot posed? You don't want me to take Israel's word for it, but whose word are YOU taking for this? Because nothing I've seen indicates that you're in a position to independently evaluate this. You're certainly taking somebody's word for it.

And why are almost all your complaints directed at Israel, and few at Hamas? Why aren't you asking for Hamas to protest in some manner less likely to get lots of Palestinians killed?
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 17th May 2018 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:15 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, I do, because your response has been a purely emotional one. Nothing about it contains any logical analysis of the actual situation at hand.
There is a very sharp limit to how much energy I am going to dedicate to engage in "logical" debate with people who engage in outright apologetics of massacres of civilians. It's just not worth it to debate with those who look at the death of an 8-month old child at the hands of Israeli fire and think "Damn Hamas and their violent protests!" If that is your STARTING POINT, then there is no fruitful debate to be had.

If I am emotional, it might be because I think of the dead Palestinians as people, people who yearn for freedom, not mindless pawns of Hamas.

Quote:
And why are almost all your complaints directed at Israel, and few at Hamas? Why aren't you asking for Hamas to protest in some manner less likely to get lots of Palestinians killed?
Whataboutism. No matter how awful Hamas are, that does not justify Israeli transgressions given the situation at hand.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:22 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Things are not so simple , because the US might build its new embassy in East Jerusalem (this has never been clearly specified by Trump, I think) which, according to international law (which does not recognize "conquest") is not in Israel, but either in Palestine or in Jordan.
When Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza back in 1967, those territories were being illegally held by Jordan and Egypt, who had acquired those territories by conquest back in 1947. Prior to that, the territories were part of a single integral territory called the British Mandate for Palestine.

In short, what you call "conquest" is also a reunification.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:29 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
When Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza back in 1967, those territories were being illegally held by Jordan and Egypt, who had acquired those territories by conquest back in 1947. Prior to that, the territories were part of a single integral territory called the British Mandate for Palestine.

In short, what you call "conquest" is also a reunification.
But a one state solution can not possibly happen, as it needs to be a jewish state no matter what.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:31 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Scores of civillians are shot dead and you think this is a matter of me being "happier"? I'd only be happier if fewer people died. I would be less outraged at the Israeli military if they had not shot people who did not pose an immediate threat.
Israel is not required to put its own citizens at risk so that an aggressor has a better chance of successfully inflicting damage or taking hostages.

Those that have the power to make sure nobody dies are the Palestinians, who can choose to not try to breech the border.

If you believe Israel has better options available, what are they?
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:35 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But a one state solution can not possibly happen, as it needs to be a jewish state no matter what.
Non-sequitur. Can you formulate a reply to what I actually said?
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:39 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post

If I am emotional, it might be because I think of the dead Palestinians as people, people who yearn for freedom, not mindless pawns of Hamas.
Unfortunately, those who went on this demonstration were acting as if they were the mindless pawns of Hamas. With tragic results, that should be laid at Hamas door.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:39 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
There is a very sharp limit to how much energy I am going to dedicate to engage in "logical" debate with people who engage in outright apologetics of massacres of civilians.
On what basis do you categorize them as civilians?

Every time I try to examine the premise for anything you say, it turns out to be hollow. For example:

Quote:
It's just not worth it to debate with those who look at the death of an 8-month old child at the hands of Israeli fire and think "Damn Hamas and their violent protests!"
The dead baby was allegedly killed by tear gas, not Israeli fire. But why do you accept this claim at face value? There is considerable reason to doubt it.

Quote:
If I am emotional, it might be because I think of the dead Palestinians as people, people who yearn for freedom, not mindless pawns of Hamas.
I really don't care why you are emotional. The problem is that it's preventing you from thinking rationally. That's actually a choice you're making. Make a better one.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:44 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Oh please. So anything Israel does (e.g. agreeing to a two-state solution according to the 1967 borders) isn't a path to peace because of course Hamas will just continue to try and destroy it. But according to you, the Palestinian authorities should just trust the goodwill of Israel and hand over whatever resembling bargaining chips they still own. Yeah, right.

Israel is in a position of power. It can afford to make peace overtures, gestures of goodwill, hand back land annexed by settlers, end the blockade, etc.
The problem is, at root:
- if the Palestinians lay down their arms, then peace and prosperity will follow.
- if the Israelis lay down their arms, then they will all be murdered.
Thatís called ďIsrael not having a partner to make peace withĒ.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:50 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Oh please. So anything Israel does (e.g. agreeing to a two-state solution according to the 1967 borders) isn't a path to peace because of course Hamas will just continue to try and destroy it. But according to you, the Palestinian authorities should just trust the goodwill of Israel and hand over whatever resembling bargaining chips they still own. Yeah, right.
If there is to be peace between Israel and Palestinians, then both need to play their role in making it happen. Right now there are no negotiations because the Palestinians will not negotiate.

I don't believe Israel should be required to cede anything unless the other side is willing to reciprocate. Only negotiations can make that happen.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Israel is in a position of power. It can afford to make peace overtures, gestures of goodwill, hand back land annexed by settlers, end the blockade, etc.
None of which has worked in the past, and there is no indication it will work today. Just because Israel is the more powerful force doesnít put the onus to make peace on Israel alone. Frankly, the Palestinian people need it more.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
That is ridiculous! You just QUOTED me saying that Palestinian leadership use the conflict to their advantage in the same way, by and large. Can I say nothing bad about Israel unless I make a statement where I assert that the Palestinians are ten times worse in the same post?
The difference is we can see what the Palestinians are doing to prolong the conflict. Should Hamas drive civilians to breech a wall en-mass knowing full well that many civilians will die as a result? Or should they recognize Israelís right to exist, and enter into negotiations for peace? Why are we of different opinions on what they should do?

Israel would not be shooting anyone were there not a threat to Israelis. Stop threatening the Israelis and the violence stops too.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
If I am emotional, it might be because I think of the dead Palestinians as people, people who yearn for freedom, not mindless pawns of Hamas.
I think of them as people too, and what is happening is horrifying. The difference between you and me is that I correctly identify Hamas as being the primary agent of their destruction, and Hamas as being the agent who can most easily end the violence.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:53 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Why in the world are you adopting the rhetoric of those who commit genoicde? It doesn't help your case at all.
What the actual **** are you talking about?
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:58 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What the actual **** are you talking about?
When you can't refute what was actually said, just smear poop all over it and declare moral victory.
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:56 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yeah, so excessive to stop them from crossing the border.

http://hurryupharry.org/2018/05/15/i...8217;-in-gaza/
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The wording on that thumbnail reads:

Monday morning will begin with a gathering at 10:00 AM along the Jacher route, From Beit Hanoun until Rafah. A starting time will be announced, and after this time will be announced, and after this time all demonstrators will start going in one mass, with stout heart, towards the fence until it is knocked down. The march will be accompanied by loudspeakers that will inflame the crowd and prevent the group from being dispersed. The advance will be made behind bulldozers that will take down the fence, clearing a path through it for the demonstrators.

The demonstrators are requested to please act in accordance with the demand to bring a knife or a gun, to hide them under their clothes and not use them except where there is need to capture soldiers or residents of Israel. It is requested not to kill them but to hand them over to the resistance forces, as this is an important bargaining chip of which Israel is afraid.

It is necessary to take actions to chase the snipers from their positions. It is necessary to expose their positions and plan actions against them well. Don’t bother yourself with the wounded or dead – that will be taken care of by the medical teams. Your (the protesters’) job is to act wisely one the ground and follow the instructions.
It is perhaps interesting to note that this allegedly Hamas document posted by Giz and Mycroft says:
Quote:
The demonstrators are requested to please act in accordance with the demand to bring a knife or a gun, to hide them under their clothes and not use them except where there is need to capture soldiers or residents of Israel. It is requested not to kill them but to hand them over to the resistance forces, as this is an important bargaining chip of which Israel is afraid.
So, (apparently) Hamas displays here explicitly respect for "enemy" life, that we obviously have not seen from Israeli soldiers:
Quote:
With 60 Killed In Gaza, U.N. Rights Commissioner Criticizes Israel
One day after Israeli forces fired on protesters and killed 60 Palestinians along the Gaza border, the U.N.'s human rights commissioner says that those who were shot included women, children, journalists, first responders and bystanders.

"We condemn the appalling, deadly violence in Gaza yesterday," said Rupert Colville, spokesperson for the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights.

While acknowledging that some Palestinian demonstrators tried to damage the barbed wire fence that separates Gaza from Israel, Colville said that in the commissioner's view, attempts to cross or damage a fence "do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition."

Lethal force, he said, should only be a measure of last resort.
( https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel )
Perhaps this gives you an indication about who the barbarians and cynical extremists really are.

Israel could probably solve this conflict tomorrow morning, by ordering all settlers to leave occupied territories in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and by lifting the Gaza blockade, but, because it is sitting on a big pile of US weapons, it doesn't want to.

Last edited by Michel H; 17th May 2018 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:11 PM   #317
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I'm pretty sure that if Israel lifted the Gaza blockade, Hamas would immediately increase its arms imports, escalate its attacks on Israel, and expand its terrorist incursions into Israel.

That seems like a huge price to pay, in exchange for displacing a large number of Israelis from de facto Israeli territory.

But I'll ask you the same question I asked TubbaBlubba: What are Hamas's victory conditions, Michel H?
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:19 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
So, (apparently) Hamas displays here explicitly respect for "enemy" life, that we obviously have not seen from Israeli soldiers:
This is the stupidest spin you could possibly put on this. It's not respect for human life, it's a desire for hostages to use as leverage. Unlike Hamas, who want their own people dead for propaganda, Israel actually values the safety of its citizens. Hamas is simply trying to exploit Israel's concerns for its citizens against them.

Quote:
Israel could probably solve this conflict tomorrow morning, by ordering all settlers to leave occupied territories in the West Bank and East Jerusalem
Did that in Gaza. Didn't help. Why would it help in the West Bank?
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:54 PM   #319
Michel H
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure that if Israel lifted the Gaza blockade, Hamas would immediately increase its arms imports, escalate its attacks on Israel, and expand its terrorist incursions into Israel.

That seems like a huge price to pay, in exchange for displacing a large number of Israelis from de facto Israeli territory.

But I'll ask you the same question I asked TubbaBlubba: What are Hamas's victory conditions, Michel H?
You probably mean "peace conditions"?
I think the basic demand of all Palestinians for many years is "end of occupation" (and also of blockades).
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:59 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You probably mean "peace conditions"?
I think the basic demand of all Palestinians for many years is "end of occupation" (and also of blockades).
No, I mean victory conditions. What conditions must be met for Hamas to declare victory and stop attacking Israel?
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