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Tags abortion issues , abortion laws , Ireland elections , Ireland issues , Ireland politics

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Old 8th May 2018, 11:54 AM   #1
Strawberry
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Abortion Referendum

On the 25th May voters in Ireland will go to the polls to decide whether or not to repeal the 8th Amendment to the Irish Constitution. The 8th Amendment is as follows...

"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right."

If its repealed it will be replaced by legislation allowing for unlimited abortion in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy and from then on in only if the mother's health is at serious risk on the evidence of two doctors, or if there is a severe abnormality in the foetus.

What way would you vote?
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Old 8th May 2018, 12:01 PM   #2
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Repeal.
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Old 8th May 2018, 12:43 PM   #3
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Repeal.

(But I'm American.)
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:00 PM   #4
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In favor of killing more women of course. Nothing symbolizes christian love more perfectly than refusing to treat a woman who is dying. Got to let them know their place in the world.
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:04 PM   #5
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Not repeal.
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In favor of killing more women of course. Nothing symbolizes christian love more perfectly than refusing to treat a woman who is dying. Got to let them know their place in the world.
To be fair the 8th Amendment includes the right to life of the mother.
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not repeal.
Why not?
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
To be fair the 8th Amendment includes the right to life of the mother.
Bah no one ever really pays attention to that BS. An abortion is an abortion. Women die all the time because doctors refuse to give them the abortion they need.
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bah no one ever really pays attention to that BS. An abortion is an abortion. Women die all the time because doctors refuse to give them the abortion they need.
Ireland has a very low maternal death rate despite having a ban on abortion...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2223.html
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Old 8th May 2018, 01:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bah no one ever really pays attention to that BS. An abortion is an abortion. Women die all the time because doctors refuse to give them the abortion they need.
That's one you are going to have to back up.
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Old 8th May 2018, 02:13 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
On the 25th May voters in Ireland will go to the polls to decide whether or not to repeal the 8th Amendment to the Irish Constitution. The 8th Amendment is as follows...
How appropriate that a virtual theocracy should hold a referendum on Towel Day.
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Old 8th May 2018, 02:23 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
How appropriate that a virtual theocracy should hold a referendum on Towel Day.
Ireland isn't a virtual theocracy, and I don't know what Towel Day is.
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Old 8th May 2018, 02:41 PM   #13
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Repeal.
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Old 8th May 2018, 02:43 PM   #14
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Repeal.
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Old 8th May 2018, 02:48 PM   #15
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Repeal, obviously.
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Old 8th May 2018, 03:26 PM   #16
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This is going to be a close one. With the SSM referendum at least some of the Catholic clergy backed it. I haven’t followed the campaign closely, but I don’t think this is the case with abortion.

Ireland is a conservative state at heart. There was another referendum in 2015 where the electorate overwhelmingly voted down an amendment to allow somebody from age 21 to run for President, down from the current 35. In most parts of the world I believe most people would have shrugged and passed it.

Hopefully this will be repealed, but I wouldn’t put money on it.
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Old 8th May 2018, 03:32 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
On the 25th May voters in Ireland will go to the polls to decide whether or not to repeal the 8th Amendment to the Irish Constitution. The 8th Amendment is as follows...

"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right."

If its repealed it will be replaced by legislation allowing for unlimited abortion in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy and from then on in only if the mother's health is at serious risk on the evidence of two doctors, or if there is a severe abnormality in the foetus.

What way would you vote?
Against, except for genuine medical reasons.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Against, except for genuine medical reasons.
Who decides what reasons are "genuine medical"?
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's one you are going to have to back up.
That is hard to do because in most cases it is about delays in care causing deaths that could easily have been prevented by doctors who would practice real medicine. Then of course there is the fun of unnecessary hysterectomies and other damage because performing an abortion even if the life of the mother is at risk and the fetus is dead is never acceptable so they have to do some unnecessary damage to make it all ok morally.

From

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/

"Catholic-owned hospital ethics committees denied approval of uterine evacuation while fetal heart tones were still present, forcing physicians to delay care or transport miscarrying patients to non–Catholic-owned facilities. Some physicians intentionally violated protocol because they felt patient safety was compromised.

Although Catholic doctrine officially deems abortion permissible to preserve the life of the woman, Catholic-owned hospital ethics committees differ in their interpretation of how much health risk constitutes a threat to a woman's life and therefore how much risk must be present before they approve the intervention."

So some women do die from the catholic position because risks like that always equate to bodies on large scales. Hell we can estimate the number of deaths from using normal saline vs lactated ringers but saying an individual died isn't as possible.

But it is clear that women do die because of these policies. But who cares they are only women?
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Who decides what reasons are "genuine medical"?
Ones that won't get a catholic nun excommunicated for saving a woman's life?

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...ryId=126985072

The catholic position would be wait for her to die then you realize that it was possibly the wrong call.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:54 AM   #21
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Why the hell is a Nun making a medical decision?
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:09 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Why the hell is a Nun making a medical decision?
Catholic hospital. Who else would you expect to be in charge, a doctor? Remember the main purpose is to save souls, the lives of their patients are not all that important.
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Old 9th May 2018, 06:14 AM   #23
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Not repeal, probably.

I prefer hypocrisy: not penalizing abortion so it can be freely offered (that's being debated in Congress, right now, in my country).

I don't accept the state promoting or financing abortion unless the mother's health is at risk or the foetus has severe genetic problems.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:16 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Against, except for genuine medical reasons.
Who, then should take full responsibility for the full time, full-time in every way, care and nurture until adulthood of the babies who will be born in spite of their pre-birth mother's wish to have an abortion?

To deny a woman the right to have a properly managed abortion and, as a result, be complicit with less safe means is so wrong.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:21 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I don't accept the state promoting or financing abortion unless the mother's health is at risk or the foetus has severe genetic problems.
Why not?

(And that's 100% sincere not a trap or gotcha question. I'm honestly curious)
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:41 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
On the 25th May voters in Ireland will go to the polls to decide whether or not to repeal the 8th Amendment to the Irish Constitution. The 8th Amendment is as follows...

"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right."

If its repealed it will be replaced by legislation allowing for unlimited abortion in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy and from then on in only if the mother's health is at serious risk on the evidence of two doctors, or if there is a severe abnormality in the foetus.

What way would you vote?
A minor correction to Strawberry's post, if the 8th amendment is repealed then the Irish parliament would be able to make laws on abortion with no constitutional restriction. There is currently no proposed legislation, Strawberry's second paragraph is a recommendation from a government committee, but there is no guarantee it would become law.

FWIW I'll be voting to repeal.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Why not?

(And that's 100% sincere not a trap or gotcha question. I'm honestly curious)
Because abortion is not the only available method to prevent the birth of a new human so it's wrong for the organized community to promote or even approve such actions. Contraception is what the state can promote and finance.

In case of severe defects -like Patau syndrome- or health risk for the mother, abortion is the only available way, then it's acceptable.

That about the role of the state. What a private citizen does is acceptable unless it's defined as a "crime" . I don't agree performing or getting an abortion before week 12 is a crime. Hence I'm in favour of the de-penalization of such activities.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Because abortion is not the only available method to prevent the birth of a new human so it's wrong for the organized community to promote or even approve such actions. Contraception is what the state can promote and finance.
Contraception sometimes fails.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:24 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Contraception sometimes fails.
Don't you tell!

That doesn't mean the state has to bless any solution for that.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:26 AM   #30
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I hate the idea of abortion, but keeping it illegal creates all sorts of problems. I'd have to vote repeal.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Because abortion is not the only available method to prevent the birth of a new human so it's wrong for the organized community to promote or even approve such actions. Contraception is what the state can promote and finance.
When a woman is already pregnant, it is the only available method.

I don't think the fact that in hindsight some other method would have been available is particularly helpful given a situation where at present she's pregnant.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Don't you tell!

That doesn't mean the state has to bless any solution for that.
So no state involvement in prenatal care either then? It seems that this ends up with many outcomes of accidental pregnancies getting blessed by the state except one.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:37 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So no state involvement in prenatal care either then? It seems that this ends up with many outcomes of accidental pregnancies getting blessed by the state except one.
Yes ... replacing "one" with "any method that involves killing".
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Who, then should take full responsibility for the full time, full-time in every way, care and nurture until adulthood of the babies who will be born in spite of their pre-birth mother's wish to have an abortion?

To deny a woman the right to have a properly managed abortion and, as a result, be complicit with less safe means is so wrong.

Well, SusanB, what about holding a pillow over unwanted babies' heads? Exactly, so why is it OK to despatch unwanted foetuses?

I met one woman in hospital who had had six abortions, and another who'd had four. What?

Put something at the end of it!

What is needed is proper education about sexual health and the consequences of unprotected sex, including STD's and all sorts of nasties.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:24 PM   #35
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Abortion being logically and morally equivalent to murder is just one of those base, ideological difference that is always going to be isn't it?

(And again I don't mean that in a snarky or backhanded way.)
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Old 9th May 2018, 01:44 PM   #36
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Repeal.
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Old 9th May 2018, 02:40 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Abortion being logically and morally equivalent to murder is just one of those base, ideological difference that is always going to be isn't it?

(And again I don't mean that in a snarky or backhanded way.)
Yes I think so. Its an issue of conscience essentially, and in Irish politics its become the issue that won't go away.

What I suspect most Irish people want is a perfect solution which will mean no woman ever gets refused medical treatment due to the rights of her unborn child, no victim of rape or incest ever has to carry the pregnancy against her will and nobody whose pregnancy has gone wrong so badly that the foetus is unlikely to live outside the womb is forced to continue the pregnancy, while also not killing any unborn children.


We certainly don't want the situation Vixen describes where people are having multiple abortions for trivial reasons. Its a difficult one.
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Old 9th May 2018, 02:44 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, SusanB, what about holding a pillow over unwanted babies' heads? Exactly, so why is it OK to despatch unwanted foetuses?
Because a foetus is not the same thing as a baby.
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Old 9th May 2018, 02:51 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
We certainly don't want the situation Vixen describes where people are having multiple abortions for trivial reasons. Its a difficult one.
Virtually every system has to accommodate exceptions. Yes, multiple abortions for trivial reasons in undesirable, but I will bet this makes up a minute proportion of all abortions.

The decision to abort is usually a heart wrenching one, and moralists should stay away from individual decisions like this.
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Old 9th May 2018, 03:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Ireland isn't a virtual theocracy, ...
Any country that bases part of its constitution on the bible is a virtual theocracy in my book, and there are only two arguments against abortion: religious and idiotic.

Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
...and I don't know what Towel Day is.
Then you'd have missed the irony.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, SusanB, what about holding a pillow over unwanted babies' heads?
As Arth pointed out, foetuses are not babies, so it's a dumb question.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Exactly, so why is it OK to despatch unwanted foetuses?
Because it is the MOTHER's right to decide whether to carry it or not, just as it's every adult's choice to have cancer treatment or not when they have cancer.

I believe we live in a time when women can consent or not to sex. Seems pretty illogical to allow them that latitude and not allow them to consent to being an incubator for 9 months for a child they don't want.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I met one woman in hospital who had had six abortions, and another who'd had four. What?
What limit do you suggest? Some women have double-figure abortions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/journali...abortions.html

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The decision to abort is usually a heart wrenching one, and moralists should stay away from individual decisions like this.
Can I suggest that that be changed to "everyone but the mother"?

Who the hell's business is it other than hers?

Crikey, if men needed abortions, it would have been legal since they found ways to terminate pregnancies. What I hate most about the whole abortion debate is old men who try to force their Medieval views on (generally) young woman who aren't doing it for fun.
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