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Tags abortion issues , abortion laws , Ireland elections , Ireland issues , Ireland politics

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Old 28th May 2018, 07:08 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is the elderly parent literally living in and off of the woman's body?

Then sure in that hypothetical scenario knock yourself out.
It's a 'burden' 'forced on her', is it not?
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Old 28th May 2018, 07:11 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Bullcrap.

Again, yet again there were more abortions in the "Good Old Days"

You aren't the least bit concerned about either the children or the unborn. You just want it to happen in secret.
If people are brought up to behave properly, then they shouldn't find themselves in that mess in the first place.

So the doctors who have made the Hippocratic Oath to do their all to save people's lives, are now being forced to do something horrible, that has little to do with a medical reason.
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Old 28th May 2018, 07:17 PM   #243
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You're totally off in yet another of your fantasy worlds.
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Old 28th May 2018, 07:26 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's exactly what Hitler called people he wanted rid of. 'Parasites', 'vermin', 'rats'. Objectify them first, as less than human, then exterminate.

At least your stance is more honest than an appeal to fancy slogans such as 'Women's right to choose'. Just get at'em.


Seeing as you despise children and their right to life, you might be better off just getting sterilised from the get go?
I am quite certain L. no more despises children than I do - and the people who have known me for a short or long period are quite sure that I love children and they know that children respond well to that and to me. Yes we support abortion but we do not hate children - and the children I meet know that, their parents know that and I have received a lot of first smiles (outside of family) from children. They are also very safe around me.
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Old 28th May 2018, 07:47 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK, fair enough. You claim your cousin was 'forced' to carry an unviable foetus 'for months'.

I'll take your word for it that this is a fact and not an emotive exaggeration to make a point.
Well, that's awfully big of you.

Quote:
Of course there should be medical discretion in cases such as these.
But because of the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution, there isn't any "medical discretion" in cases such as these.

We're arguing that it is right to remove the Eighth Amendment from the Irish Constitution to at least allow for cases like this (and others) (my opinion on the matter is much more liberal as I think up to a certain point a foetus is not a human being by any stretch of the imagination and I have no qualms whatsoever for women deciding to terminate their pregnancies up to a certain point for any reason at all, I just don't see what's morally wrong with it).

So you're in agreement that the Eighth Amendment is a bad thing because it forces horrible situations like this on women and that it should be gotten rid of to allow for legislation to allow women in these situations to legally and safely terminate their pregnancies?

Last edited by JesseCuster; 28th May 2018 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 28th May 2018, 07:53 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The police didn't prevent her going anywhere, Jesse Custer has the details of that one wrong.
Thanks for the correction, I fired that post off without thinking.
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Old 28th May 2018, 09:03 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Think rationally, ddt. What do you think happened in the olden days? People had sex, got pregnant, had to get married in a hurry.
Or had a back-ally abortion.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People cared about the fate of those offspring. Gave them a name and a secure home.
Or they ended up in a Magdalene laundry.

Your view of the "golden olden days" is very one-sided.
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Old 28th May 2018, 09:06 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's exactly what Hitler called people he wanted rid of. 'Parasites', 'vermin', 'rats'. Objectify them first, as less than human, then exterminate.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is a silent holocaust going on here.
Bravo for going the whole way and making a complete fool of yourself in this discussion.
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Old 28th May 2018, 09:08 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So what about if the same woman, whose 'right to choose' is sacrosanct, has an elderly parent who is suffering a painful and distressing terminal illness. Is it her right to choose to euthanise this parent, rather than having to be lumbered with the burden of caring for him or her, possibly for many years?

As you say, it doesn't matter what we perceive her intellectual capability to be. It is her right to choose to do away with 'em.
To make your argument other than a strawman one would have to view a blob of cells in someone's womb as equivalent to an elderly parent. Pretty insulting to the old! The key issue in abortion is of course when a sperm and an oocyte become anything like a human being.

I posted a discussion of this issue in the "Abortion, sex, and assumption of risk thread" at the same time I posted my defense of women's right to chose here, but I chose not to redundantly post the same in the current thread. The detailed points are in my post in that other thread, but briefly, unlike her parent's existence, the arrival of personhood after spermogenesis and ovulation is defined neither by the biology nor by a widely shared common moral code: different people, different religions, and different ethics/philosophies legitimately disagree. In fact the vast majority of voters Ireland believe that the prior restrictions on abortion were wrong and that an embryo is not a full person. I understand that you believe you are right, but come on, it is clear that people widely and obviously disagree. Therefore apply your own view to your own life, but others have other views and apply them to their lives. Read my post in the other thread if you want to know the details of this discussion.

My post here is specifically in response to the anti-choice movement's core assumption that they alone know the right answer to this complex and unresolved (unresolvable?) question, that the embryo is a full human being, whereas the pregnant woman is too selfish and too stupid to see this and to make the morally correct choice herself. That their religion and their conclusions as to the beginning of personhood are the only ones that count, and the pregnant woman's are meaningless and should be ignored. That women in general are so callous and uncaring that they would have an abortion for casual reasons of convenience and the anti-choice people must impose their views on all others even though they themselves are a minority in these views. This is both horribly incorrect and deeply insulting.

Are anti-choice people claiming that the bulk of abortions are casual and uncaring decisions by women with such little or no regard for human life that they would also kill off their elderly parents when they became inconvenient, if not for the laws against it? That is the underlying implication. That is the underlying insult and underlying anti-woman bias.

Last edited by Giordano; 28th May 2018 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 28th May 2018, 09:11 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I understand it, the Netherlands (or was it Belgium?) also has euthanasia centres where people can go to 'die with dignity'.
And? The physicians there have to comply with the same rules as someone's GP and has to be convinced that the person asking euthanasia has a consistent, well-informed wish to end their life.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So what about if the same woman, whose 'right to choose' is sacrosanct, has an elderly parent who is suffering a painful and distressing terminal illness. Is it her right to choose to euthanise this parent, rather than having to be lumbered with the burden of caring for him or her, possibly for many years?
No, euthanasia is performed on the wish of the person themselves. Your attempt to equate an adult person with a fetus, a mere clump of cells that has not grown a nervous system let alone own consciousness, is derisible.
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Old 29th May 2018, 12:02 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall coming down.

Let's face it, the only people who will benefit are those who want an abortion.
How many of the kids women who wanted to abort but couldn't are you bringing up?
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Old 29th May 2018, 12:05 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?

Or are only highly vocal women who want, "a woman's right to choose" the only voices we should listen to?

That slogan in itself implies a doctor is being 'sexist' if an abortion is refused, because of the law or because of personal ethics, and that the woman's predicament is because of this dreadful 'sexist' society.

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?
When abortion is made compulsory you may have a point.
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Old 29th May 2018, 12:14 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Abortion is common decency? Murder is just plain being polite, I guess.
If ones view is that abortion in all cases and all circumstances is murder then you would also support a massive increase in prosecutions for women in regards to such crimes as manslaughter and assault?
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Old 29th May 2018, 03:49 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
As emphasized above by me, yes, ONLY the involved woman should be able to decide and make the choice. I have believed that since the mid-late 1950s based on local newspaper reports on that and unwed mother's facilities. Yes, that means I was around ten years old then. During the fourth grade I did as little work as I could pass on while reading the entire World Book and a number of Horatio Alger books (both in the classroom). For those thinking that odd, it was the year after the one where I was tested for reading speed and was at 800 some wpm with 90 (some odd) % accuracy on questions on the reading. Took me some time to realize that was unusual.
In the referendum polling men supported abolishing the constitutional prohibitions by 2:1.
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Old 29th May 2018, 03:54 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post


Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12

Pathetic. Are you actually so incapable of reasoned, rational, argument that you have to resort to crap like this?

I ask (again); To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

Last edited by zooterkin; 7th June 2018 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 29th May 2018, 03:55 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes around 180 thousand abortions were performed in the UK last year where it is legal and (at least somewhat) socially acceptable.

In Pakistan last year 2.25 million abortions were performed. Abortion is highly restricted legally in Pakistan.

Again the more legal and socially accepted abortion is the less it happens.

If your concern is "too many abortions" what you are arguing for is completely divorced from reality and implies an ulterior motive.
Generally societies with more liberal attitudes to abortion also have better access to contraception and sex education, hence lower unwanted pregnancy rates.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:12 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Think rationally, ddt. What do you think happened in the olden days? People had sex, got pregnant, had to get married in a hurry.

People cared about the fate of those offspring. Gave them a name and a secure home.
No. Actually infant mortality killed many of them and frequently women died in pregnancy and childbirth too. I see you're unaware of these historical facts; traditionally children weren't named for several months (or even 1-2 years) after birth specifically because they were likely to die (~25% chance of dying before one year) and weren't really considered 'persons'.
You'll find all this well documented in historical researches; if you can be bothered to actually look. Try Infant Mortality and Child-Naming.

Another fascinating historical fact is that for most of recorded history a fetus wasn't considered a person until it had 'quickened'. For example Pope Gregory XIV declared that the fetus wasn't 'quickened' until 166 days after conception. Ensoulment at conception only became church doctrine in 1869.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:13 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Bravo for going the whole way and making a complete fool of yourself in this discussion.
I'm waiting for the abortion causes breast cancer lie to be trotted out. It was during the referendum campaign after all.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:16 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If ones view is that abortion in all cases and all circumstances is murder then you would also support a massive increase in prosecutions for women in regards to such crimes as manslaughter and assault?
And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:21 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
To make your argument other than a strawman one would have to view a blob of cells in someone's womb as equivalent to an elderly parent. Pretty insulting to the old! The key issue in abortion is of course when a sperm and an oocyte become anything like a human being.

I posted a discussion of this issue in the "Abortion, sex, and assumption of risk thread" at the same time I posted my defense of women's right to chose here, but I chose not to redundantly post the same in the current thread. The detailed points are in my post in that other thread, but briefly, unlike her parent's existence, the arrival of personhood after spermogenesis and ovulation is defined neither by the biology nor by a widely shared common moral code: different people, different religions, and different ethics/philosophies legitimately disagree. In fact the vast majority of voters Ireland believe that the prior restrictions on abortion were wrong and that an embryo is not a full person. I understand that you believe you are right, but come on, it is clear that people widely and obviously disagree. Therefore apply your own view to your own life, but others have other views and apply them to their lives. Read my post in the other thread if you want to know the details of this discussion.

My post here is specifically in response to the anti-choice movement's core assumption that they alone know the right answer to this complex and unresolved (unresolvable?) question, that the embryo is a full human being, whereas the pregnant woman is too selfish and too stupid to see this and to make the morally correct choice herself. That their religion and their conclusions as to the beginning of personhood are the only ones that count, and the pregnant woman's are meaningless and should be ignored. That women in general are so callous and uncaring that they would have an abortion for casual reasons of convenience and the anti-choice people must impose their views on all others even though they themselves are a minority in these views. This is both horribly incorrect and deeply insulting.

Are anti-choice people claiming that the bulk of abortions are casual and uncaring decisions by women with such little or no regard for human life that they would also kill off their elderly parents when they became inconvenient, if not for the laws against it? That is the underlying implication. That is the underlying insult and underlying anti-woman bias.

No, that is what I suggested YOU are arguing. You complained that some poor women were 'being forced' to 'take on the burden of having to care for someone against their will'. I simply extrapolated YOUR argument to say, so that means it's OK to get rid of anyone (or 'clump of cells', as pro-abortionists like to objectify it, in true eugenics style) that's an unwanted burden.

That's all I was doing. I was saying your argument doesn't give sufficiency to what you are proposing.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:25 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And? The physicians there have to comply with the same rules as someone's GP and has to be convinced that the person asking euthanasia has a consistent, well-informed wish to end their life.


No, euthanasia is performed on the wish of the person themselves. Your attempt to equate an adult person with a fetus, a mere clump of cells that has not grown a nervous system let alone own consciousness, is derisible.
Anyone who ever lived was a 'mere clump of cells' once.

Oh well, as long as all the foetuses being disposed of are of the lower unwashed masses, who would be a burden on the welfare state, anyway, we needn't give it any further thought. Unless, of course, there'll be a shortage of labour to take care of the future ageing population or governments need some cannon fodder should we go to war again.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:33 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How many of the kids women who wanted to abort but couldn't are you bringing up?
I am sure previous generations had their ways and means. Victorian families were typically twelve children or more. My grandmother was one of twelve, she herself had seven. People expected to marry and have children. If you were poor you worked hard to provide for your family, as best you could.

My parents were married and I was planned.

What is the problem of people planning their lives properly and not expecting others to take over?

Any thought for the doctors and nurses who have to put in long man hours terminating all the unwanted pregnancies because wanton irresponsible people could not be bothered to 'put something on the end of it', yet the state is blamed for not providing a service on demand.

I agree there should be an alternative to back street methods, but I don't agree with the argument that somehow this is 'empowering to wimmin'.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:37 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

Pathetic. Are you actually so incapable of reasoned, rational, argument that you have to resort to crap like this?

I ask (again); To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?
I am not a doctor, I cannot tell. My response was to Lothian who claimed foetuses were 'parasites'.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:44 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No. Actually infant mortality killed many of them and frequently women died in pregnancy and childbirth too. I see you're unaware of these historical facts; traditionally children weren't named for several months (or even 1-2 years) after birth specifically because they were likely to die (~25% chance of dying before one year) and weren't really considered 'persons'.
You'll find all this well documented in historical researches; if you can be bothered to actually look. Try Infant Mortality and Child-Naming.

Another fascinating historical fact is that for most of recorded history a fetus wasn't considered a person until it had 'quickened'. For example Pope Gregory XIV declared that the fetus wasn't 'quickened' until 166 days after conception. Ensoulment at conception only became church doctrine in 1869.
I am very well aware of them. Infant mortality was nothing to do with the lack of legal abortion. I had a great aunt who died alone in the sauna giving birth to a child who also died. There is no doubt lots of rumpy pumpy went on and tragic mistakes were made, with illegitimate children leading a life of hell, unable to inherit, hidden away in orphanages or adopted out. It was all very hush-hush.

In my family, it is custom to not tell people the name of your new baby until it has been christened. It'll have a nickname. For example, a recent arrival was known as 'Henkka', until he was christened as 'Henry'.

So am I ignorant about the issues? I don't think so.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:49 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's exactly what Hitler called people he wanted rid of. 'Parasites', 'vermin', 'rats'. Objectify them first, as less than human, then exterminate.

At least your stance is more honest than an appeal to fancy slogans such as 'Women's right to choose'. Just get at'em.


Seeing as you despise children and their right to life, you might be better off just getting sterilised from the get go?
I used the term parasite correctly not at a form of abuse.

Parasite: an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

I don't despise children, quite the opposite. I want all children to be brought up in an environment where they are wanted, loved and cared for.

Your "right to life" phraseology mirrors my view. If the fetus can survive on its own outside the mother it should be given that right. If it is dependant on the mother keeping it in her body then the rights and wishes of the mother take precedence. The fetus does not have its own life. It's existence is as part of the mother. Only when it can survive independently does its life begin imo.

The vote in Ireland was very interesting as it is more evidence that the church is losing its power there.
People rejected the church's 'rights to life' arguments and saw through that and to the fact that the church was insisting on babies being carried to term by single mothers so that they could sell those babies to (often foreign) adopters or stick them in homes to be abused by priests.
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:14 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Or had a back-ally abortion.

Or they ended up in a Magdalene laundry.

Your view of the "golden olden days" is very one-sided.
Vixen might like to research Magdalene laundries to see why I would have loved to see all the nuns, taken out and beaten thoroughly in front of the girls they did it to and the children they stole to give to "good catholics" aka slime ridden kidnappers.
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:14 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.
I say prosecute God..... if you can find her and put her in the dock
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:18 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I say prosecute God..... if you can find her and put her in the dock
I think it is a little higher around 80%. I often wonder why rather than "praying" for women going into clinics, Christian protesters don't pray to god and ask him to stop killing so many babies.
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:35 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I think it is a little higher around 80%. I often wonder why rather than "praying" for women going into clinics, Christian protesters don't pray to god and ask him to stop killing so many babies.
I suppose because God is infallible and so whatever percentage are spontaneously aborted are part of Gods plan and we mere mortals should not question it.......
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:50 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Vixen might like to research Magdalene laundries to see why I would have loved to see all the nuns, taken out and beaten thoroughly in front of the girls they did it to and the children they stole to give to "good catholics" aka slime ridden kidnappers.
I saw the film. (Or, 'filim', as they say in Ireland.)
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Old 29th May 2018, 05:50 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose because God is infallible and so whatever percentage are spontaneously aborted are part of Gods plan and we mere mortals should not question it.......
Doh! So obvious once it has been explained.
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:06 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...snipo...

Of course there should be medical discretion in cases such as these.
According to your previous posts this can only make sense and not be hypocritical if you believe in euthanasia.
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:07 AM   #273
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Whilst waiting for the raging storm outside to abate, before I can go out, I've had a great idea for a film script.

A mad politician who plans to take over the government hatches a plot in collaboration with a mad scientist, who is also a doctor.

This doctor manage to persuade all the hospitals throughout the land to donate aborted foetuses to an establishment run by him and aforesaid mad politician.


It comes to pass, almost everyone avails themselves of abortion on demand, as the economy is harsh, few jobs, little housing and high food and utility prices.

Over time, the ageing population outnumbers the young by 70:30.

One day, an edict is sent to all members of this ageing population who ever had an abortion to attend Wembley Stadium and other large stadia across the country.

They all turn out, partly out of curiosity and because of the threat of a fine, if they do not.

The arrivals take their seats and are intrigued to see half the seats are empty.

The mystery is unveiled as a troupe of people aged from eighteen up to forty, troop out to the sound of fanfare and take their seats.

The mad politician and his scientist henchman takes his position on the podium. Via a tannoy and large screens, he announces:

'Ladies and Gentlemen, meet all the foetuses you aborted! Now rescued and turned into living people! If you look int he programme you will see which one was yours.'

<fx scramble and rustling of programmes as people look up their names. Close ups of the looks of horror, wonder and bewilderment cross their faces>

'Ladies and Gentlemen, you are invited to assemble on the pitch, in an orderly manner.'

<fx, people politely make their way to the pitch>

'Now, Ladies and Gentlement, the people remaining in the stands are your aborted children. They will now abort you in return. You are ageing and useless, a burden on the state. Taxpayers money go towards your pensions and healthcare. Well time is up!'

<fx a noticeable hubbub can be heard as people look around them confused>

'Now Ladies and Gentlemen, it is your turn to be be aborted. Goodbye, parasites!'

<fx a cheer goes up in the stands as the ground opens and swallows up the ex-parents>

[ends]
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:10 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.
I was trying to be charitable and taking the view that TBD would accept that spontaneous abortions weren't intentful so it wouldn't be murder just manslaughter. But of course what if the woman was doing any of the things we know can lead to an increase in spontaneous abortions? Should we then treat them as murder?
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:14 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was trying to be charitable and taking the view that TBD would accept that spontaneous abortions weren't intentful so it wouldn't be murder just manslaughter. But of course what if the woman was doing any of the things we know can lead to an increase in spontaneous abortions? Should we then treat them as murder?
That's true of any crime. If you don't get caught, you get away with it.
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:32 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Vixen might like to research Magdalene laundries to see why I would have loved to see all the nuns, taken out and beaten thoroughly in front of the girls they did it to and the children they stole to give to "good catholics" aka slime ridden kidnappers.
I have to admit I'm a bit suspicious of some of the stories about Magdalene laundries. I'm sure they were miserable places, but there's a definite whiff of Michelle Remembers about some of those who claim to have been in one.
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:34 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I saw the film. (Or, 'filim', as they say in Ireland.)
Wow - what research!
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:36 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's true of any crime. If you don't get caught, you get away with it.
Non sequitur.
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:45 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If ones view is that abortion in all cases and all circumstances is murder then you would also support a massive increase in prosecutions for women in regards to such crimes as manslaughter and assault?
There are already laws on Child Destruction, which involves ending a viable late-term pregnancy. There seems no clear line between when the foetus becomes a child, or at least no clear rationale for the maximum term at which an abortion is allowed.
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Old 29th May 2018, 06:46 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Ironic, because the only part of Ireland where abortion is now illegal is the part where everybody still is a subject of HM the Queen.
Did this change a single law? Can people now treat women with cervical cancer if they get pregnant or do the new laws have to be written?
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