ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

Reply
Old 3rd June 2018, 09:37 PM   #1
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,974
Venezuela on the edge of ending....

Quote:
During the first five months of the year, roughly 400,000 Venezuelans have fled the country, following 1.8 million who left over the last two years, according to the Central University of Venezuela. Yet even those numbers may not fully capture the scope of the exodus. Aid workers dealing with the crisis in bordering nations say an average of 4,600 Venezuelans a day have been leaving since Jan. 1 — putting the outflow during this year alone at nearly 700,000.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...?noredirect=on
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2018, 11:13 PM   #2
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Why isn't this refugee crisis getting the coverage it deserves? Is it because the Venezuelan government is silencing the press ? Is it because countries in the region are well enough off to (just about) cope? Is the US and her allies letting the crisis run its course in the hope and expectation that it will topple the Venezuelan government?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 12:08 AM   #3
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 57,611
According to Wikipedia, the population of Venezuela is thirty one and a half million. While 0.02% of the population leaving is certainly a concern, it's hardly "on the edge of ending" the country. If people leave the country at that rate for the next oooh, hundred and fifty years, then the country is likely to be on the verge of collapse.
__________________
"Curiosity killed time by making up for lost cats."
The Three-Word Story
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 12:15 AM   #4
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
According to Wikipedia, the population of Venezuela is thirty one and a half million. While 0.02% of the population leaving is certainly a concern, it's hardly "on the edge of ending" the country. If people leave the country at that rate for the next oooh, hundred and fifty years, then the country is likely to be on the verge of collapse.
It's 2%, not 0.02% if 700,000 have left this year.

If the 1.8 million are included in that number then it's closer to 8% over the last 2 1/2 years

Last edited by The Don; 4th June 2018 at 12:16 AM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 01:07 AM   #5
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,974
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why isn't this refugee crisis getting the coverage it deserves? Is it because the Venezuelan government is silencing the press ? Is it because countries in the region are well enough off to (just about) cope? Is the US and her allies letting the crisis run its course in the hope and expectation that it will topple the Venezuelan government?
The country is losing its best-educated and most skilled people, including doctors and teachers. They are starting new lives in other countries. It's not like they're all in camps somewhere. I don't see how Venezuela could keep them from leaving. And who would bail out the Venezuelan economy, and how?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 01:09 AM   #6
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,974
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
According to Wikipedia, the population of Venezuela is thirty one and a half million. While 0.02% of the population leaving is certainly a concern, it's hardly "on the edge of ending" the country. If people leave the country at that rate for the next oooh, hundred and fifty years, then the country is likely to be on the verge of collapse.
The country's economy has been collapsing for years, and the best-educated, most skilled people are bailing out.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 01:15 AM   #7
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The country is losing its best-educated and most skilled people, including doctors and teachers. They are starting new lives in other countries. It's not like they're all in camps somewhere. I don't see how Venezuela could keep them from leaving. And who would bail out the Venezuelan economy, and how?
I'm not sure how this relates to my comment

My comment related to why we haven't heard about this issue - not why it's continuing.


edited to add....

But this comment from your OP does seem to suggest that it's not just the educated middle classes who are leaving:

Quote:
Aid workers dealing with the crisis in bordering nations...
So there are aid workers dealing with a crisis - why isn't this bigger news ?

Last edited by The Don; 4th June 2018 at 01:17 AM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 04:55 AM   #8
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,544
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The country's economy has been collapsing for years, and the best-educated, most skilled people are bailing out.
Most of those bailed out fifteen years ago. This is the second wave of what's left, the country will be lucky to avoid becoming a failed state, if it isn't already.

Even oil production is plummeting, by 600 kbpd in the past year - all of it unscheduled and a result of disasterous mismanagement of the national oil company.

https://tradingeconomics.com/venezue...oil-production

I'll add that most of the drop is in the state-owned ventures with partner projects holding steady, making the drop in the state income even harder.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 06:00 AM   #9
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why isn't this refugee crisis getting the coverage it deserves? Is it because the Venezuelan government is silencing the press ? Is it because countries in the region are well enough off to (just about) cope? Is the US and her allies letting the crisis run its course in the hope and expectation that it will topple the Venezuelan government?
What exactly are "the US and its allies" supposed to do to stop the crisis in Venezuela?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 06:05 AM   #10
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,802
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why isn't this refugee crisis getting the coverage it deserves?
Because it doesn't involve Trump.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 06:14 AM   #11
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What exactly are "the US and its allies" supposed to do to stop the crisis in Venezuela?
Nothing to stop the crisis - but then again I never suggested that the US and its allies should. My point related to why we've heard nothing about this apparent refugee crisis. One of the possible reasons for why not it that drawing attention to the crisis may result in action which may in turn prevent regime change. Regime change would be in the interests of the US and its allies (and very probably in the interests of Venezuelans - unless the replacement regime is even worse).

That said, if hundreds of thousands of people are pouring across the border into neighbouring countries then the US' allies will have do do something and maybe could use some help from the US.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 06:15 AM   #12
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because it doesn't involve Trump.
The Guatemalan volcanic eruption has made global world headlines and AFAIK that has had nothing to do with President Trump.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 06:55 AM   #13
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,802
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The Guatemalan volcanic eruption has made global world headlines and AFAIK that has had nothing to do with President Trump.
That story is nonpolitical. It doesn't compete in the same space.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 07:14 AM   #14
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That story is nonpolitical. It doesn't compete in the same space.
The crisis involving African refugees/asylum seekers/economic migrants gets plenty of coverage globally and AFAIK that has nothing to do with President Trump.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 07:56 AM   #15
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,035
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why isn't this refugee crisis getting the coverage it deserves? Is it because the Venezuelan government is silencing the press ? Is it because countries in the region are well enough off to (just about) cope? Is the US and her allies letting the crisis run its course in the hope and expectation that it will topple the Venezuelan government?
Some other possible reasons:

- The refugees are largely economic (compared to, for example, the refugees fleeing Syria, where military conflict plays a bigger role)

- Fewer of the refugees have big western countries (e.g. the U.S./Germany/Britain/etc.) as their destination

- Those fleeing Venezuela are probably seen as relatively low risk (whereas those fleeing Syria are often viewed with suspicion as containing radicalized Islamic terrorists hiding amongst the true refugees)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 08:23 AM   #16
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Nothing to stop the crisis - but then again I never suggested that the US and its allies should. My point related to why we've heard nothing about this apparent refugee crisis. One of the possible reasons for why not it that drawing attention to the crisis may result in action which may in turn prevent regime change. Regime change would be in the interests of the US and its allies (and very probably in the interests of Venezuelans - unless the replacement regime is even worse).

That said, if hundreds of thousands of people are pouring across the border into neighbouring countries then the US' allies will have do do something and maybe could use some help from the US.
You said, "letting the crisis run its course", which I understood to mean they could do the opposite - "not let the crisis run its course" - i.e., stop it (or try to stop it). It was in that context that I asked what you thought the US and its allies are supposed to do.

Also, why do you stop short of saying the US should do anything? It seems like you are implying a criticism of the US for not acting differently. Why not make your criticism explicit? What is the US doing wrong about the situation in Venezuela, in your opinion? What do you think the US should be doing instead?

And why is this about the US, for you, anyway?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 08:55 AM   #17
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You said, "letting the crisis run its course", which I understood to mean they could do the opposite - "not let the crisis run its course" - i.e., stop it (or try to stop it). It was in that context that I asked what you thought the US and its allies are supposed to do.
I had heard nothing about hundreds of thousands of people pouring across the Venezuelan borders and was wondering why this was the case.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, why do you stop short of saying the US should do anything? It seems like you are implying a criticism of the US for not acting differently. Why not make your criticism explicit? What is the US doing wrong about the situation in Venezuela, in your opinion? What do you think the US should be doing instead?
If it seems like I'm implying criticism then IMO the problem is yours, not mine.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And why is this about the US, for you, anyway?
It isn't as far as I am concerned, but for some reason you seem to want to make it so.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 09:13 AM   #18
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,802
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The crisis involving African refugees/asylum seekers/economic migrants gets plenty of coverage globally and AFAIK that has nothing to do with President Trump.
Oh, but it's got plenty to do with Trump. He's racist, anti-immigrant, and islamophobic, remember?

Plus, of course, that story is unfolding on Europe's own soil. Venezuela is happening far away. One shouldn't expect similar coverage in Europe. I bet that Venezuela's downward spiral is all over the press in Colombia, though.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 09:15 AM   #19
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,107
There are thousands of people daily crossing a lot borders everywhere all the time - that in itself is not newsworthy. Question is: where are the Venezuelans going, and how much of a problem do they cause there? I bet they have several options in the Spanish speaking world, where the can blend in with much more ease than Syrian or Afghani refugees in Europe, who generally face much more of a language and cultural barrier.

Until recently I had a Venezuelan colleague here in Germany, who has learned German well, is a very competent nurse, and her change of jobs is actually a step of career advancement.

So I am wondering if there is statistical or anecdotal information out there to what extent Venezuelans manage to make it abroad without becoming a long-term case for aid workers, relative to African, Arab or South Asian displaced persons.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 09:47 AM   #20
logger
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,145
If only we had a democrat socialist who would show up and save them. He could nationalized certain industry, jail certain people who complain too much, forcefully encourage farmers to work for nothing, hand out red shirts.....
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 09:51 AM   #21
Ian Osborne
JREF Kid
Tagger
 
Ian Osborne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,691
Where did it all go wrong for Venezuela? It used to be one of the strongest economies in South America.
__________________
"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan
Ian Osborne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 11:02 AM   #22
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,280
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I had heard nothing about hundreds of thousands of people pouring across the Venezuelan borders and was wondering why this was the case.
Because there is no humanitarian crisis associated with the movement? If these people are being absorbed by surrounding countries without any refugee camps or major upheaval its probably not going to draw a lot of attention.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 11:07 AM   #23
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I had heard nothing about hundreds of thousands of people pouring across the Venezuelan borders and was wondering why this was the case.



If it seems like I'm implying criticism then IMO the problem is yours, not mine.



It isn't as far as I am concerned, but for some reason you seem to want to make it so.
Thanks for the clarification.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 11:14 AM   #24
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,802
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Because there is no humanitarian crisis associated with the movement?
What on earth are you talking about? Of course there's a humanitarian crisis associated with the movement. The fact that the main crisis is in Venezuela and not the surrounding countries doesn't make it go away.

Quote:
If these people are being absorbed by surrounding countries without any refugee camps or major upheaval its probably not going to draw a lot of attention.
But there are refugee camps.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...oss-the-border
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 11:54 AM   #25
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,792
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why isn't this refugee crisis getting the coverage it deserves? Is it because the Venezuelan government is silencing the press ? Is it because countries in the region are well enough off to (just about) cope? Is the US and her allies letting the crisis run its course in the hope and expectation that it will topple the Venezuelan government?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You said, "letting the crisis run its course", which I understood to mean they could do the opposite - "not let the crisis run its course" - i.e., stop it (or try to stop it). It was in that context that I asked what you thought the US and its allies are supposed to do.

Also, why do you stop short of saying the US should do anything? It seems like you are implying a criticism of the US for not acting differently. Why not make your criticism explicit? What is the US doing wrong about the situation in Venezuela, in your opinion? What do you think the US should be doing instead?

And why is this about the US, for you, anyway?
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I had heard nothing about hundreds of thousands of people pouring across the Venezuelan borders and was wondering why this was the case.



If it seems like I'm implying criticism then IMO the problem is yours, not mine.



It isn't as far as I am concerned, but for some reason you seem to want to make it so.

The Don,

You first raised the issue of the US in post #2 and suggested motivation on their part.

the prestige questioned your reasoning and you respond by saying it is not about the US.

It does make a person wonder why you included US reactions in your comment if you do not wish to discuss them.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

Last edited by Steve; 4th June 2018 at 12:07 PM.
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 12:35 PM   #26
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The Don,

You first raised the issue of the US in post #2 and suggested motivation on their part.

the prestige questioned your reasoning and you respond by saying it is not about the US.

It does make a person wonder why you included US reactions in your comment if you do not wish to discuss them.
It's standard motte-and-bailey argumentation, I think.

Insinuate that something should be done (give the crisis the "coverage it deserves") and that it isn't being done because reasons ("the US and her allies letting the crisis run its course in the hope and expectation that it will topple the Venezuelan government").

And then as soon as someone picks up on the insinuation and tries to address or challenge the argument being made, retreat back to Just Asking Questions. Suddenly we're left wondering if The Don even believes the crisis isn't getting the "coverage it deserves".

On a related note, the insinuation itself is pretty bizarre. The Don seems to be talking about media coverage - why aren't the big media outlets covering this more fully or whatever. But the motivation he proposes is a matter of government policy, not media interest. Either The Don thinks that the mainstream media is a PR organ of state policy in the US, or he means that the mainstream media is being muzzled by the US government for reasons of state policy. Maybe we can unpack these implications the next time The Don sallies forth from his bailey into the motte.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 12:57 PM   #27
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,280
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What on earth are you talking about? Of course there's a humanitarian crisis associated with the movement. The fact that the main crisis is in Venezuela and not the surrounding countries doesn't make it go away.

But my entire point was that its the lack of the usual high visibility signs of a crisis that prompts the lack of media attention, which was the question I was responding to.

Quote:
One small transit camp for 120 people for 48 hours at a time, again not the kind of thing to draw media attention.

Add in that Venezuela is not exactly a conducive environment for foreign media coverage and the lack of attention is unsurprising.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 01:19 PM   #28
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,802
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
But my entire point was that its the lack of the usual high visibility signs of a crisis that prompts the lack of media attention, which was the question I was responding to.



One small transit camp for 120 people for 48 hours at a time, again not the kind of thing to draw media attention.

Add in that Venezuela is not exactly a conducive environment for foreign media coverage and the lack of attention is unsurprising.
These are incomplete explanations. They are reasons why the story is easy to ignore, but the press are still choosing to ignore it. If the press wanted to really cover what's going on in Venezuela, they could make it visible to the rest of us.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 02:00 PM   #29
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Add in that Venezuela is not exactly a conducive environment for foreign media coverage and the lack of attention is unsurprising.
1. Find refugees outside of Venezuela.
2. Interview them about why they left Venezuela.
3. Publish the interviews.

Seems like some basic Journalism 101 to me.

And we know that investigative journalists will go to much greater lengths than that, to cover a story they believe deserves more coverage, even when -- especially when! -- someone else is trying to cover it up. If they believe the story deserves to be covered.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2018, 03:10 PM   #30
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,281
NPR has been covering the Venezuelan crisis pretty closely, although I can't recall hearing in-depth about the refugees specifically.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 12:18 PM   #31
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,719
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Where did it all go wrong for Venezuela? It used to be one of the strongest economies in South America.
I can tell you in two words: Hugo Chavez.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 12:50 PM   #32
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I can tell you in two words: Hugo Chavez.
That, and the 56% of Venezuelan voters who got him elected in 1998. Ironically:
Academic analysis of the election showed that Chávez's support had come primarily from the country's poor and "disenchanted middle class"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_C...#1998_election
When has a communist regime ever benefited the middle class? Talk about voting against interest.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 12:52 PM   #33
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,802
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I can tell you in two words: Hugo Chavez.
That can't possibly be right. Salon told me he was a miracle worker.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 01:19 PM   #34
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27,829
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That can't possibly be right. Salon told me he was a miracle worker.
Is it that trick where the magician makes the coin disappear?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 01:25 PM   #35
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 42,610
Yup. A couple of my friends, who are amongst the last of my friends who still haven't left, are now finally leaving. People can only take with so much ****, abuse and delinquency for so long.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 02:17 PM   #36
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,719
And I note that the supporters of Hugo we used to have here have been very quiet for quite a while...
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 02:22 PM   #37
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,719
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That can't possibly be right. Salon told me he was a miracle worker.
Nate Silver described Sirota, the writer of that article as...
Quote:
playing fast and loose with the truth and using some of the same demagogic precepts that the right wing he despises so much does
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 5th June 2018 at 02:23 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 10:01 PM   #38
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 57,611
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's 2%, not 0.02% if 700,000 have left this year.

If the 1.8 million are included in that number then it's closer to 8% over the last 2 1/2 years
Thanks for the correction. I always seem to lose a factor of ten when I calculate these things.
__________________
"Curiosity killed time by making up for lost cats."
The Three-Word Story
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 11:00 PM   #39
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,003
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thanks for the correction. I always seem to lose a factor of ten when I calculate these things.
Or even two factors of ten
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2018, 11:11 PM   #40
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,718
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What exactly are "the US and its allies" supposed to do to stop the crisis in Venezuela?
The US has allies?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.