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20th January 2022, 09:26 AM | #1201 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Havana syndrome: Most cases not caused by foreign power - CIA (BBC News, Jan 20, 2022)
CIA report says ‘Havana Syndrome’ not a foreign power campaign (South China Morning Post, Jan 22, 2022) CIA report: no evidence linking Havana Syndrome to a foreign country (NPR, Jan 20, 2022)
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Video: Ryan Grim and Robby Soave react to breaking news on the CIA's assessment of the cause of Havana Syndrome.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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20th January 2022, 09:31 AM | #1202 |
Penultimate Amazing
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RIP commie headache gun.
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Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
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20th January 2022, 10:38 AM | #1203 |
The Grammar Tyrant
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The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable. |
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20th January 2022, 04:08 PM | #1204 |
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CIA Backtracks on Havana Syndrome after Director Issued Warning to Russian Spies (Newsweek, Jan 20, 2022)
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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21st January 2022, 01:29 AM | #1205 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To some of us, it doesn't come as a surprise at all, but yesterday we were told that ...
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And one CIA operative (?), a victim of the alleged syndrome, "who asked that his name not be used because of his work for the agency," went as far as to say that ...
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Until a week ago, we were told about the retaliation that would follow as soon as the culprit was found, which begs the question: Now that we know exactly who spread the 'syndrome' to U.S. government employees all over the world - we know many of those responsible by name! - how will they be punished? It doesn't seem fair that they will go unpunished just because they happen to be Americans instead of a foreign "hostile power", does it?! What about the people in charge of sacking Pamela Spratlen and the head of the CIA office in Vienna? And what about the people who misinformed lawmakers like Susan Collins, Jeanne Shaheen and Marco Rubio?
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Is an apology to the foreign hostile power in place? |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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21st January 2022, 06:11 AM | #1206 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, Susan Collins, that's called cognitive dissonance, and the solution isn't to try to reconcile two contradictory, mutually exclusive ideas. The solution is to understand that people can both be ill and misunderstand the cause of their illness, i.e.that illness does not equate Russians with ray guns! It is not nearly as difficult to grasp as you make it out to be! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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21st January 2022, 07:23 AM | #1207 | |||||||||
Penultimate Amazing
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It is not unlikely that the CIA itself may be trying to do the same thing. Remember what Politico wrote: "The new CIA-prepared interim finding assesses that the vast majority of reported cases can be explained by medical, environmental or technical factors." |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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21st January 2022, 11:26 AM | #1208 |
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How about that. It's almost like letting the relevant organization take notice of a supposed problem and conduct an actual thorough investigation instead of just laughing it off and ignoring the complaints of its employees isn't really the death of rationality or headlong dive into pseudoscience that some were bent on framing it as.
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21st January 2022, 09:40 PM | #1209 |
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22nd January 2022, 01:26 AM | #1210 |
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Your belief in 'relevant U.S. American institutions' is amazing, Checkmite! Several relevant organizations already conducted thorough investigations and dismissed the lunatic idea that spies and diplomats were attacked by first sonic weapons and later directed microwave energy weapons, but their reports were kept secret and laughed off by the CIA when leaked. You yourself believed the first reports about attacks by a hostile enemy in Havana - until independent researchers revealed that the recordings were of lovelorn crickets. Later on, your belief was revived by the NAS report because it was conducted by what you claimed were the upper echelons of U.S. American science - and yet the researchers were denied access to CIA data about the 'syndrome' sufferers that could have contributed to revealing the truth about the 'Havana Syndrome'. And now you are singing the praise of the organization that did nothing but obstruct the thorough investigations by relevant organizations - for whatever reason: prestige, i.e. vanity? power? You are praising the organization that promulgated the big lie of the 'Havana Syndrome' until it grew out of all proportions and freaked out the whole corps of diplomatic employees (and apparently spies as well) to the extent where they became frightened of being deployed in the rest of the world. Or in other words: until the big lie blew up in their faces and the only way to keep it alive would have been to wage an actual war against the imaginary perpetrator, Russia! And even at this point, the big lie, albeit considerably smaller now, that the 'Havana Syndrome' at its place of origin may still, somehow, have constituted an attack, something, which you of all people should know is utterly absurd since you participated in this thread when we found out that the 'sonic attacks' were nothing but lovelorn crickets, this lie still cannot be allowed to die! I am happy to see you come around, again, Checkmite, but you seem to have learned nothing worthwhile from the whole 5-year-long story. It is obvious the reason why you feel the need to claim that those of us who very early on reached the conclusion that the 'Havana Syndrome' was a case of mass psychogenic illness were "just laughing it off and ignoring the complaints of its employees" - unlike you, I suppose, who is then the noble hero taking the complaints of diplomats and (as we later found out) CIA spies seriously instead of dismissing them. (Many of those complaints are laughable, by the way, and should be laughed off. Laughing off the only rational explanation, mass psychogenic illness, doesn't seem to offend you at all!) But the paranoia of those CIA spies was the thing that set the whole thing in motion in the first place, aided and abetted by an administration that was more than willing to believe in lies about Cuba because they served to justify the dismantling of the U.S.-Cuban diplomatic relations that had been established by the governments of Obama and Raúl Castro. And the current administration's interest in continuing Trump's (and little Marco's) hostility towards Cuba, in spite of the promises made by Biden before he was elected, is probably the major reason why the delusion of the 'Havana Syndrome' cannot simply be abandoned once and for all. (Another reason is the vanity of institutions and researchers who have invested their prestige in reports about alleged attack-induced brain damages. I don't doubt that some of those were busy trying to persuade the Senate committee of their ideas until the very end - to the extent where the prestige of those committee members now depends on keeping the lie alive!) The USA and its institutions are founded on lies and don't seem to be able to survive without them. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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22nd January 2022, 04:33 AM | #1211 |
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In her book, The Sleeping Beauties and Other Stories of Mystery Illness, Suzanne O'Sullivan investigates several cases of mass psychogenic illness all over the world. She stresses the importance of looking at the whole context that gives rise to an MPI and turns it into a kind of solution to a problem, albeit a very dysfunctional solution, which may give rise to new stories about the cause of this 'solution'.
In Denmark, for instance, the HPV scare of 2015 seemed to disproportionally affect girls who were very ambitious athletes. O'Sullivan describes a HPV scare in Colombia where the origin story is somewhat different.:
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In Denmark, I got the impression that the story about the HPV vaccinations provided many of the girls with an excuse for not being able to live up to their own (and maybe their families') ambitions: They didn't just quit or give up. They were forced to give up because something, the vaccines, made them too sick to continue. The story of the vaccinations gave them an out, but not in any calculated way, as a subterfuge. They did have the symptoms. An important part of the context is the story, sometimes including myths and superstitions, depending on the culture of the setting where a case of mass psychogenic illness occurs. Robert Bartholomew describes the background story of the 'Havana Syndrome' like this:
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One thing is the story, quite another thing is what may or may not actually have happened. As skeptics, we are familiar with very similar stories about haunted houses where things mysteriously aren't where people remember leaving them, and we know that those stories are very likely due to false interpretations of what actually happened, much like when the eyeglasses or the screwdriver is no longer where we remember putting it. In a 'spooky' house, occurrences like this are interpreted as the deed of poltergeists, whereas in Havana they were interpreted as the sinister deeds of Cuban security agents, as were deflated tires, shining lights and the cutting of water or electricity. Having spent close to one year combined in Cuba, I know from personal experience that you cannot rely on water or electricity not being cut now and then. It can be very annoying when it happens, but it never made me have other than the immediate concerns about being able to use the bathroom. But I also had no reason to suspect that those things happened because the Dirección de Inteligencia was out to get me, which would have been very surprising since I didn't think that I gave them any reason for harassing me. If I had rented a car or a motorcycle in Cuba, which I've never done, and its tires had been deflated, I also wouldn't suspect the Cuban state intelligence agency to be the culprit, but it is obvious why American CIA operatives do so. As for the "animal faeces and urine", I wonder what would be the point of something like that: Why would Cuban state operatives do something so childish and pointless? In the stories that CIA operatives told each other, the purpose would have been mere harassment, a story that I would never have come up with. (And the one time I found a frog in the kitchen of a 3rd-floor apartment, there was a much more logical explanation: Cuban tree frog. It is amazing to see it climb a bathroom wall! By the way, as mentioned in the article, this may also occasionally be the cause of power cuts! ) Unlike 1961, the CIA lies about the 'Havana Syndrome' stopped short of causing an actual war this time. I am glad that it didn't, but it doesn't make me admire the CIA and its "thorough investigation". |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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22nd January 2022, 06:25 PM | #1212 |
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lol, no they weren't. The CIA didn't laugh at anything, and none of the reports were "kept secret". Major news organizations were discussing said reports when they were released, publicly. The CIA and State Department investigators chose not to comment until their own investigation was complete.
Which, it now is. Surprise (maybe to you, but not to me), they've come to a conclusion that is consistent with the consensus of the other bodies who have explored the problem, and as a bonus even with several individuals who didn't explore the problem at all but gave an opinion anyway. The investigation took a little longer than the others; but it is now clear that wasn't a sign of spinning, irrational thinking, or indulging in pseudoscience, but likely just a natural result of a government agency that is required to meticulously document everything in triplicate. |
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23rd January 2022, 01:23 AM | #1213 |
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Checkmite is simply making things up at this point:
1) The CIA dismissed anything that didn't support the idea that its operatives were being attacked. 2) An FBI report and the JASON report were kept secret. The latter only "obtained by Buzzfeed News via a Freedom of Information Act request" three years later. 3) The CIA and State Department investigations didn't begin till last year during the Biden administration. 4) The CIA investigation is not complete. I don't know what it is about the word interim that Checkmite does not understand. 5) If the CIA investigation had started when the others did, it would have taken much longer, not just a little longer, than the others. Some of those finished in 2018. 6) The investigations could have stopped with the JASON report, which wasn't released for a reason: It didn't support the CIA fairy tales about its agents being attacked. 7) This irrational thinking was what made the State Department, the CIA and the Pentagon warn its millions of employees about being attacked and encouraging them to come forward with their symptoms, which made hundreds of them believe that they themselves were attack victims. No wonder that they now feel let down by their employers, who exposed them to MPI on a gigantic scale. 8) In other words, nothing but "spinning, irrational thinking, or indulging in pseudoscience." And it hasn't even stopped with the interim CIA report. The idea that some of those cases may have been attacked, in particular the ones in Havana that started the whole spectacle, is being kept alive ... for ... reasons ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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23rd January 2022, 10:03 AM | #1214 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Mark Zaid, the lawyer of many of the 'syndrome' sufferers, on Twitter, Jan 20, 2022:
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He is probably not even entirely wrong about the reason why the CIA doesn't want the farce to continue: Keeping the lie alive has repercussions for people employed by the State Department and the CIA. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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23rd January 2022, 11:55 AM | #1215 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I like this one!
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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24th January 2022, 12:29 AM | #1216 |
Penultimate Amazing
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A short, almost laconic, article in Granma about the CIA 'revelations':
La verdad no merece oídos sordos (Granma.cu, Jan 23, 2022) The truth does not deserve to fall on deaf ears I guess the title is a pun on the damaged hearing mentioned in some of the first cases. The illustration also makes it seem so. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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24th January 2022, 01:02 AM | #1217 |
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But to be fair, it's not "fake" in the sense that these people would intentionally be duplicitious - even psychosomatic symptoms are real and people have genuinely suffered, so why not give some compensation? And actually this has been a very fascinating phenomenon: a modern and well documented case of mass delusion by very intelligent and well educated people. Quite remarkable.
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24th January 2022, 02:49 AM | #1218 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree with you that MPI is real and "that these people," i.e. the MPI sufferers, "would (not) intentionally be duplicitious." But I also don't think that's the point of the tweet. I don't think that "we" in the tweet means the (relatively few) 'syndrome' sufferers. I think "we" means the millions of people who were convinced by the propaganda lie that a hostile power had used directed microwave energy weapons to harm innocent U.S. American diplomats:
"What if the real Havana syndrome was the warmongering mass delusion we suffered along the way" The mass delusion, not the mass psychogenic illness ... And some of the people suffering from that delusion were (and still are) eager to believe it:
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It would be very nice to hear more about the "other testimony that we have had" and about “everything we’ve been told up to now," wouldn't it? Who exactly presented the Senate committees with testimony leading to different conclusions? What exactly were those senators told? ETA: And I disagree with you about this: "a modern and well documented case of mass delusion by very intelligent and well educated people." They may be educated, but not well educated. And many of them may be intelligence operatives, but the ones we've seen on TV playing recordings of crickets don't seem intelligent at all. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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24th January 2022, 05:12 AM | #1219 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Short interview with Natalie Shure, The New Republic:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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24th January 2022, 05:51 AM | #1220 |
Penultimate Amazing
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An example of people who "really got swept away in the excitement of the story" would be the editorial board of Washington Post. In fact, they have dropped the "skepticism that they really should have had about this" to the extent where they just can't let go of their fantasy of weapons and perpetrators.
This is so incredibly dumb that it's almost unbelievable:
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The story about evil adversaries responsible for the 'Havana Syndrome' is just too titilating to let it die! WP's editorial board don't seem to consider that the CIA official's announcement also does not rule out that the 'syndrome' may be caused by something other than "a weapon or mechanism." For instance by paranoid stories about U.S. diplomats and agents being attacked by sinister, elusive perpetrators with sci-fi weapons or mechanisms. These stories constitute the weapon of mass psychogenic illness. This 'troubling challenge' has actually been resolved, WP editorial board. The perpetrator has been found! It was you the whole time! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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24th January 2022, 03:27 PM | #1221 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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24th January 2022, 08:48 PM | #1222 |
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The news has not made it across the border into Canada yet.
‘Havana Syndrome’: Canada cautions diplomats about mysterious illness symptoms https://globalnews.ca/news/8532388/h...ada-diplomats/
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25th January 2022, 12:48 AM | #1223 |
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Calling it "the puzzling episode" instead of "anomalous health incident" ('but really, Russia and its invisible attackers are behind this, we just can't prove it yet') seems to make a difference. Helping American Victims Afflicted by Neurological Attacks was a much better way of ensuring that there would be a steady stream of sick spies and diplomats.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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25th January 2022, 12:57 AM | #1224 |
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Granma has now published an English translation:The truth should not fall on deaf ears (Granma.cu, Jan 24, 2022) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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25th January 2022, 12:59 AM | #1225 |
Penultimate Amazing
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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25th January 2022, 01:21 AM | #1226 |
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Some people are doing their utmost to ignore that the lie has now been exposed for what it is:
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It is not as if the lie didn't just blow up in their faces, is it? One can still dream that the reason why Blinken didn't say, "Russia did it! Putin is the culprit!" is one of "diplomatic decorum". Blinken meant to say it. History suggests so ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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25th January 2022, 09:31 PM | #1227 |
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I love this thread. It's fascinating, and I'd say it's the best resource in the world for this topic. Thanks, dann.
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25th January 2022, 11:55 PM | #1228 | |||
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China about the most recent development of the story about the 'Havana Syndrome':
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Now, it doesn't really surprise me anymore that Google won't show an article about 'Havana Syndrome' from Chinese Xinhua News, Russian RT* or Cuban Granma unless I add the names of these news sites to my search terms. However, it does surprise me that I only found the latest article about 'Havana Syndrome' by Robert Bartholomew (see post 1221) because I added his name to my Google search. ETA: *Secret of ‘microwave weapons’ targeting US diplomats revealed: The rise and fall of ‘Havana Syndrome’ is a story of lazy assumptions and sloppy reporting (RT, Jan 23, 2022) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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26th January 2022, 03:24 AM | #1229 | |||
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Interview with Robert Baloh and Robert Bartholomew
I have seen them both before, but this is the first time I remember seeing both of the authors of the book Havana Syndrome - Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story behind the Embassy Mystery on the same show. (It probably isn't easy when one is in Los Angeles, California, and the other is in Auckland, New Zealand.)
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Man, I would love to see that! If it ever happens, I hope that it will be an open hearing. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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26th January 2022, 04:19 AM | #1230 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
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At which point did a CIA representative begin "laughing"? What specifically did they "laugh" at?
I realize they both have three letters, but you should probably know that the FBI and the CIA are not the same agency. Additionally, your article cites a declassified report. As in, not classified. If it had still been classified, it would not have been eligible for release in response to the FOIA request (and no, classified materials are not declassified directly as a response to FOIA requests). And the State Department is not the CIA either; the CIA has no say over which State Department memos are classified at release, nor if or when they become declassified afterwards. I don't know how true that is about the CIA; but, the State Department investigation report cited in the article you just linked right up there ---^ says that it was completed in 2018. I'm admittedly not the best at math but my unqualified impression is that 2018 predates the Biden administration. You think it's possible the CIA is going to change its mind X-number of months from now and say "okay never mind, those cases we said were completely explainable, suddenly are not"? Do you think it's plausible that they will do so? If not, this is hair-splitting. Like the State Department report? Is that what the report says, or are you going all JFK-assassination-theory on me now? I'm sure telling the employees depending on them for support while inexplicably experiencing symptoms of what medical doctors examining them called "traumatic brain injury" would never have felt "let down" had their employers started proclaiming that not only was nothing actually wrong with them at all, but that no investigation was going to be conducted into their apparent illnesses either, lol! Let's do a fun little exercise. Premise: this scenario - government employees suddenly apparently succumbing to a mysterious illness with a broad spectrum of psychosomatic symptoms - has happened before, and to make the analogy a little more congruent let's place it in the recent past, but not too recent that any fallout would still be making news-cycles - say a decade or two prior to the Havana events. In this earlier instance, in contrast to the Havana situation, let us imagine the government's chosen approach to the initial complaints is to fairly immediately, unambiguously, and consistently dismiss the existence of an actual physical illness, and attribute the alleged various symptoms to various already-existing factors, including at least some amount of MPI; and let's further say that as with Havana, there are several medical and scientific studies over a several-year period supporting that there is nothing unusual actually happening to the employees experiencing the "illness", except that of course the government's position is in agreement with this scientific consensus rather than contradicting it. How do you hypothesize the government employees who report experiencing the "symptoms" would react to the government's position that there is nothing happening to them? How do you think their reaction would compare to how those who believe they are victims of "Havana Syndrome" have reacted to the present-day government's initially-affirmative, later-negative response? |
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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26th January 2022, 04:55 PM | #1231 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 45,217
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27th January 2022, 03:05 AM | #1232 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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No, I don't have Google Alert set up for anything.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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27th January 2022, 03:17 AM | #1233 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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Quote:
Video:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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27th January 2022, 03:28 AM | #1234 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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I didn't know about this letter from Dec 14, 2021, which is mentioned in the article:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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27th January 2022, 06:30 AM | #1235 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
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Well, it seems to be collapsing surprisingly quickly!
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28th January 2022, 04:27 AM | #1236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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Another WP opinion piece: Havana syndrome’s source should not be so easily dismissed (Washington Post, Letter to the Editor, Jan 26, 2022)
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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28th January 2022, 05:43 AM | #1237 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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I don't know what it is about the word "dismissed" that Checkmite doesn't understand ...
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Checkmite doesn't appear to have heard about the first FBI report, which is why he thinks that I confuse it with the recent interim CIA report. He also doesn't appear to understand the meaning of the word declassified. I am surprised that he knows that the State Department is not the CIA.
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At this point, I am also surprised that Checkmite is so good at math that he is able to tell that the JASON report predates the Biden administration. I am not surprised that he doesn't seem to know that two groups were commissioned to investigate the 'Havana Syndrome' during the Biden adminstration.
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Why on earth would I think that? Checkmite still seems to have problems with the word interim, which is why he resorts to hair-splitting.
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Maybe this will help:
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I leave the conspiracy theories to Checkmite, the State Department and the CIA.
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1) They didn't "inexplicably" experience symptoms. There was nothing inexplicable about it. 2) What the doctors called "traumatic brain injury" wasn't traumatic brain injury. 3) Something was wrong with them, MPI, which was exacerbated by the doctors proclaiming that their alleged "traumatic brain injury" was caused by attacks. 4) And instead of investigating it properly, the CIA had people removed from the investigation if they were open to MPI as a possible explanation of the alleged syndrome. 5) "lol" Really?!
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Why make this hypothetical? Why invent a complicated thought experiment? From Wikipedia's List of mass hysteria cases 1950 to 2000:
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I bet they also didn't find any evidence of directed microwave energy weapons or sinister perpetrators. Nor did any government agency try to persuade them and the rest of the world that those 600 (!) men had been attacked by Russian agents. I haven't heard of any support groups for the 600 MPI sufferers from 1988. I don't think a SAN DIEGO Act was passed in Congress. Maybe the paranoia of U.S. governmental institutions was not as excessive back then as it is now. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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28th January 2022, 11:03 AM | #1238 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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29th January 2022, 03:37 AM | #1239 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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Why not?
Maybe they should also consider an evaluation to determine the extent to which the DoD has developed guidance and implemented procedures to identify and evaluate similar stupid ideas:
Quote:
MEMORANDUM FOR DISTRIBUTION (Inspector General, Department of Defense, Jan 24, 2022) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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29th January 2022, 04:21 AM | #1240 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I would love to hear more about the cases in France and Switzerland! All of a sudden, the reports just stopped coming.
US Seeks ‘Havana Syndrome’ Answers After Cases in Geneva and Paris (The Switzerland Times, Jan 13, 2022) Blinken says US working on Havana Syndrome after diplomats' illnesses (The Jerusalem Post, Jan 13, 2022) US diplomats in Geneva and Paris allegedly hit by ‘Havana Syndrome’ (Swiss Info, Jan 14, 2022) It is almost as if some kind of conspiracy is trying to suppress the truth about these cases. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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