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3rd September 2019, 05:23 PM | #1 |
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Another Noose and Hate Crime Charges
University of Illinois Student Charged With Hate Crime After Noose Found Hanging in Dorm Elevator: Officials
Originally Posted by The Daily Beast
Black Mascara White Supremacist... |
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3rd September 2019, 05:52 PM | #2 |
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The Smollett Effect on the hoof
Speaking of on the hoof, if hommes was going for a sultry lip pursing in the left pic, we can safely say that's also been put out to pasture. Eta: though I note the quote does not ascribe a gender pronoun to Andrew. eta II: Illinois nazis? Illinois nazis! |
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3rd September 2019, 06:30 PM | #3 | |||
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
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Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities. When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]." |
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3rd September 2019, 06:58 PM | #4 |
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Is this going to be like the Boeing thing where even though they actually found the perpetrator people are going to insist he's a scapegoat and there was no noose and/or the university knowingly framed an innocent person as part of a conspiracy to avoid bad press, etc etc etc?
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3rd September 2019, 07:06 PM | #5 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd September 2019, 07:18 PM | #6 |
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That radical comb-over hairdo is a tribute to Trump who is the hero of Andrew Smith. This is just another Trump supporter taken down by hate crime charges. I bet Smith wishes it was a milkshake to the head instead of criminal charges.
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3rd September 2019, 07:20 PM | #7 |
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There are plenty of people who identify as male who have long, flowing hair.
*tosses hair dramatically* |
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3rd September 2019, 07:26 PM | #8 |
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...but presumably have better taste in eyeliner. I mean that shade with that top? Christ. Might as well be working the door at Sephora's.
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd September 2019, 08:28 PM | #9 |
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Another story:
https://www.courant.com/ct-universit...scm-story.html This one refers to Smith with male pronouns. I'll assume he identifies as male until told otherwise. I'm glad they caught the perpetrator (alleged perpetrator; he pleaded not guilty to the charges). Will they be able to prove the hate crime charges, which make it a felony rather than just a misdemeanor? It's being treated as self-evident that leaving a noose around is intended to intimidate African Americans. I do think that it's more than enough to expel him from the University. I just don't know if they can prove the felony charges. The act seems pretty obvious, but what motivated the act? I'd like to know more about the individual from people who knew him personally. |
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3rd September 2019, 08:53 PM | #10 |
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More pictures.
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3rd September 2019, 09:04 PM | #11 |
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Anyone taking bets that this turns out to be autoerotic asphyxiation gone south?
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3rd September 2019, 09:24 PM | #12 |
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Because it is. Using a symbol publicly associated with intimidation of minorities makes it such.
My uneducated guess would be edgelord prank gone wrong, for the prankster. But given that trolling as a racist for edginess is indistinguishable from being a racist for realsies, I'm not sure his actual intent will or even should matter. Is there a functional difference between "I hung the noose to make people uneasy, and it happens to be a symbol associated with intimidation of minorities" and "I hung the noose to intimidate the darkies" or is it just semantics? If he did it and is convicted I'm sure the difference should come in during mitigation, but for the charge beforehand if the effect is the same why shouldn't the charge be? |
3rd September 2019, 09:26 PM | #13 |
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"I found the noose in the dorm building and figured that someone had lost it. I hung it in the dorm elevator because that would be the best way for the owner to quickly get it back. Everybody rides that elevator. I would have done the exact same thing if it were a sock or a glove. You now arrest me for doing that? You are totally full of crap."
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3rd September 2019, 09:28 PM | #14 |
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3rd September 2019, 09:29 PM | #15 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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3rd September 2019, 09:42 PM | #16 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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3rd September 2019, 09:44 PM | #17 |
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I think it's just Bill imagining an excuse.
If I were to give any legal advice to the suspect it would be to shut the hell up and let your lawyer do the talking. Saying something like Bill suggested might seem like a clever defense, but I doubt it would work and might just make things worse. Trying to explain yourself to the police is almost always a bad idea and just gives them more material to hang you with (no joke intended). You said earlier that "I'm not sure his actual intent will or even should matter" but although I'm not a lawyer, I suspect that the actual intent does matter for legal reasons. Here's the statute, fwiw: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publ...?Name=100-0197 ETA: the fact that the crime was committed in a college dorm is an aggravating factor:
Quote:
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3rd September 2019, 10:09 PM | #18 |
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3rd September 2019, 10:25 PM | #19 |
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I suppose my question was more in the light of using a known racist symbol, doubly so at this school which is currently in the throes of legal action regarding the use of such symbols to intimidate minority staff. If you use such a symbol, in such an environment, even if play acting as I suspect would and should it matter in the eyes of the law?
From the statute provided;
Quote:
Interesting that being on a campus is an aggravating factor. ETA - I would like to reiterate that I'm talking mostly out of my hat here. Just spitballing based on my own speculation. |
3rd September 2019, 10:34 PM | #20 |
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Yeah, and I'm not sure what the actual defense will be, but I imagine if he has a competent lawyer, it won't be "I was just trolling the libtards, lol."
The thing is though, that the burden of proof is supposed to be on the prosecution, not the defense. The prosecution needs to provide positive proof of the reason for the act; the defense only needs to argue that there is room for reasonable doubt: that the prosecution has not proven (not the fact of the act itself, but the reason for the act, the reason being what makes it a felony rather than a misdemeanor) beyond a reasonable doubt. |
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3rd September 2019, 11:07 PM | #21 |
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Agreed, though I think a "it was just an edgy prank" may be a possibility.
Maybe the question I have would be the defense, e.g. does using a symbol publicly known as being used to intimidate minorities meet the burden of proof for intent on its own just by nature of being a racist symbol that caused intimidation. If it does, just a prank is no excuse per the regardless of other motivations clause, if it doesn't, acquittal. I guess we'll see at trial, assuming it gets that far and I'm right about the whole prank thing. I haven't even been thinking about the friend who reported him to the police that is mentioned in the Courant article. It's not clear if she was with him when the noose was found or when it was put up, but she certainly felt the need to tell the police that Andrew had something to do with it. Bleh, now I feel bad for speculating. I do genuinely want to know if using a hate symbol meets the burden of proof for intent on its face though. |
3rd September 2019, 11:07 PM | #22 |
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I would go for the obvious diversion defence.
"Everyone knows how high suicide attempts are with trans people. People were teasing me about my eye-line and I was going to kill myself in the lift, but changed my mind. Should have taken the rope down, I have just had my finger nails done and didn't want to damage them untying knots...So technically I am the victim" |
3rd September 2019, 11:22 PM | #23 |
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Okay, stop.
There is no suggestion that this person is trans. And even if they are, it has nothing to do with whether they are guilty of a hate crime or not. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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3rd September 2019, 11:46 PM | #24 |
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4th September 2019, 12:42 AM | #25 |
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You were the one who introduced their assumed transgender status into the joke. But you are not the only one doing this.
There is no suggestion that they are trans. Several people, including you, have been assuming, based on hair, eyeliner and duckface alone, that they are transgender. Don't assume you know their gender. Wait for evidence. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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4th September 2019, 01:53 AM | #26 |
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4th September 2019, 01:54 AM | #27 |
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4th September 2019, 05:16 AM | #28 |
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I'm curious if a federal hate crime charge has ever been brought in tandem with a disorderly conduct misdemeanor before. Usually hate crime charges are brought when a targeted crime has been committed, whereas this noose was just left in a public place as a general threat. Leaving a noose somewhere doesn't even qualify as vandalism, and leaving it in a public place for anyone to find probably isn't specific enough to be considered a criminal threat against an individual.
This might be a difficult stretch, but maybe it's just a gambit for a guilty plea for reduced charges. If the accusation is true, this guy is a real scumbag, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the legal reach here. Disorderly conduct is already a real catch-all charge used to punish generic bad-behavior that isn't otherwise a crime, tacking on a felony gets a little to close to punishing "wrong-speak" for my comfort. Wonder what the ACLU might make of this. |
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4th September 2019, 05:45 AM | #29 |
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4th September 2019, 05:52 AM | #30 |
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Male with long hair here, there are other little clues this person is making a turn in life.
Not that it matters in a men's prison. The criminal justice system doesn't nicely ask which he will prefer. That aside, things have changed since I was in school. We used to be able to carry pocket knives and tie nooses without having hateful ideas. This brave new world isn't quite right. |
4th September 2019, 05:56 AM | #31 |
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Thanks for the correction. Looks like Illinois law explicitly lists disorderly conduct in its hate crime statute. http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...050k12-7.1.htm Disorderly conduct always makes me a bit uncomfortable, as it's a very broad law that is often abused, often as a means of criminalizing protected expression. All that said, it seems like an appropriate charge here given the facts, as hanging a noose is generally understood as a threat. This country has wide protections of free speech and it's not illegal to be a racist. It's nice when the racists are kind enough step on rakes and screw themselves over like this. |
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4th September 2019, 06:28 AM | #32 |
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In all honesty, without sounding as dick-ish as possible, why would you? I'm an older individual and I don't think I've tied a noose...ever. I can't imagine a scenario I actually would tie a noose. Are you sure it wasn't your old school world that wasn't quite right, if you're the ones going around tying nooses for totes fun?
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4th September 2019, 07:35 AM | #33 |
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Decorating the yard at Halloween called for nooses and dummys in my old hometown, in addition to tombstones and the other 'we don't have the cash for decorations but damned if we aren't gonna have fun' low-tech displays.
A noose makes a convenient knot for tying on to things you want to be able to reloosen. Can be handy, like other boy-scout knot-tying skills. I think it was on the Boeing noose thread, I mentioned that I hadn't learned about racial lynching till I was in high school. A noose didn't have the race hate murder connotations it has now. Maybe because I grew up in a Union State, I dunno. |
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4th September 2019, 07:41 AM | #34 |
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These were the days of the old Clint Eastwood films, Josey Wales, The good, The bad and the ugly....
Kids seen it and had to try to tie one. Now every kid is trying to turn a Toyota into a high performance race car. I didn't knowingly hang out with haters of any sort at that time. I am not sure it was even much of a social factor in our lives. It was just something a kid did and others copied. And it was a phase we all passed to get into real life stuff. No big deal then. |
4th September 2019, 08:24 AM | #35 |
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Remember where you are. This is the ISF.
The noose represents white supremacy and therefore represents and encourages the killing of blacks and other non-whites, Jews, homosexuals and lesbians and trans, gypsies, et al. White supremacy is equated with neo-Nazi. All of that is domestic terrorism. The hanging of a noose is an act of domestic terrorism. The hanger of the noose is a domestic terrorist. Remember where you are. This is the ISF. |
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4th September 2019, 08:35 AM | #36 |
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I didn't realize the ******* ISF charged him with the crimes, but totes sweet nonsensical crying. I give it a 7 out of 10. If you would have played into how this guy is the actual victim it would have been a 10 out of 10. Good luck next time.
So during your pre-high school days you would go to school and twist up some nooses for halloween? Wait a second, people hang things by nooses as Halloween displays? What does a lynching have to do with Halloween? Maybe I'm missing that connection. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just not something I've run into I guess. Must be a North Dakota thing where that isn't decor we use. Learn something new every day I guess. Like I said, this is all news to me, but hey...I love to learn. |
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4th September 2019, 08:38 AM | #37 |
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4th September 2019, 08:40 AM | #38 |
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4th September 2019, 08:47 AM | #39 |
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Nooses to me were from horror movies primarily, and westerns secondarily. Yes, we'd hang homemade dummies fron the trees with an ax handle buried in their heads, tombstones with gloves reaching out of the ground, and any other homemade imagery from the old Hammer Horror flicks from Saturday TV.
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4th September 2019, 08:48 AM | #40 |
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I wouldn't say that a noose is automatically a racist dog whistle in every circumstance. If I saw a noose as part of a Halloween display, that wouldn't automatically translate "black lynching" scene. A noose could probably be considered general macabre in many circumstances. The Hangman with noose character is probably interchangeable with the character of The Executioner with axe. Out west, a noose probably more readily evokes scenarios of frontier justice than that of black lynching.
To be honest, unless the accused runs his mouth, proving racial animus in this case beyond a reasonable doubt would be tough. Personally, I feel comfortable saying that, in the context of the continuing racial harassment of the black staff, a racial taunt is the likeliest explanation, but that's a much lower standard. I am even more comfortable saying that any reasonable person would know that leaving a noose out to find is a pretty open threat, even if the target is not specified. |
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