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Old 22nd January 2019, 03:43 PM   #41
luchog
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
"The accused student denied the charges when interviewed by police, Riseling said. In his disciplinary hearing, however, he changed his story in an apparent attempt to receive a lesser punishment by admitting he regretted what had occurred. That version of events was “in direct conflict with what he told police,” Riseling said. Police subpoenaed the Title IX records of the hearing and were able to use that as evidence against the student." Inside Higher Ed.

I am extremely hesitant to equate an admission of regret to an admission of guilt of committing a crime. I am also a bit hesitant to accept Riseling's characterization as accurate without support.

You did see the highlighted bit, right? It's not really possible to regret doing something that you never did. Either way, he lied to either the cops or the school, in order to make himself look better and avoid consequences, and got nailed because of it.

And, as noted, this still is not an "end run around Miranda", since the moment you open your mouth and noise comes out, you've waived your Miranda right to remain silent.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 04:06 PM   #42
Chris_Halkides
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Need more information on the earlier case

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You did see the highlighted bit, right? It's not really possible to regret doing something that you never did. Either way, he lied to either the cops or the school, in order to make himself look better and avoid consequences, and got nailed because of it.

And, as noted, this still is not an "end run around Miranda", since the moment you open your mouth and noise comes out, you've waived your Miranda right to remain silent.
Of course I saw it. What we do not know is what his statement to the police was. He may have indicated that he regretted some sexual activity that was not rape.

"[K]nowingly and intentionally forced [Cephus] into the predicament of having to either waive his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination by choosing to participate in the University process despite the potential harm to his criminal defense, or decline to participate in the University’s process thus leading to the inevitable finding of responsibility and severe sanctions." link to FIRE

A subsequent paragraph from the suit itself: "This matter highlights the widespread issue of colleges and universities, including the University of Wisconsin-Madison, investigating and adjudicating allegations against its students prior to the conclusion of any parallel criminal case." IIUC their claim is that having to defend oneself simultaneously is a violation of due process, either in general or due to the specifics of this case (I am not sure yet). I have skimmed this filing, and it makes some good points IMO.

With respect to the earlier case, we know that Ms. Riseling said "direct conflict." Cops have been known to shade the truth or to lie once or twice over the course of human history. That is why I would not take Ms. Riseling's version at face value without supporting documentation.
EDT
Defense attorney Scott Greenfield's take is harsh, but IMO not unfair. "Here’s the trick. Take a person, strip them of all the rights and protections to which they would otherwise be entitled in a rational society and force them into a process that compels them to speak, to defend, without knowledge of the facts against them, without advice of counsel, without the rights to remain silent or confront witnesses, without an opportunity to adequately prepare or investigate."
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Old 22nd January 2019, 04:41 PM   #43
luchog
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Of course I saw it. What we do not know is what his statement to the police was. He may have indicated that he regretted some sexual activity that was not rape.

Regardless, everything posted afterwards is nonsense. This was a school, not a government institution. The worst they could possibly have done to him was expel him, that's it. If his action truly wasn't rape, then he should have been more explicit about what it was and not lied to police to start with.

If he was truly innocent and in the right, then he had a good case to sue the school for various violations, including defamation of character. Did that happen? Yes, it apparently did. If he's in the right, then he has a good chance of winning the suit. And despite the alarmism, this is not "rife" across the country. These are a minuscule handful of isolated incidents that are bound to happen as culture changes and these issues get hashed out.
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Last edited by luchog; 22nd January 2019 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 05:15 PM   #44
Chris_Halkides
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Over one hundred successful suits

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Regardless, everything posted afterwards is nonsense. This was a school, not a government institution. The worst they could possibly have done to him was expel him, that's it. If his action truly wasn't rape, then he should have been more explicit about what it was and not lied to police to start with.

If he was truly innocent and in the right, then he had a good case to sue the school for various violations, including defamation of character. Did that happen? Yes, it apparently did. If he's in the right, then he has a good chance of winning the suit. And despite the alarmism, this is not "rife" across the country. These are a minuscule handful of isolated incidents that are bound to happen as culture changes and these issues get hashed out.
With respect to the earlier UW-Madison case, Ashe Schow wrote, "Obviously there has to be more to this story. Perhaps the student flat out denied even having sex with the woman, or maybe he said it was consensual. Maybe he regretted what occurred because of how the woman feels now, or maybe there was more story changing than the article describes. Maybe he said he regretted what occurred just to receive a lighter punishment, knowing he was going to be found guilty even if he was innocent. Riseling's office did not provide the Washington Examiner with additional details about the story...Perhaps the student in Wisconsin really did rape a woman. At first glance, it would appear he would have a case for dismissing the charges, since he was not properly Mirandized for his campus hearing, which was the basis for the charges against him by the police." link

At Minding the Camps KC Johnson wrote, "The chief [Ms. Riseling] offered a rare explicit celebration of what too often is implicit: lack of civil liberties protections is a desired aspect of college inquiries," Johnson wrote. "The 'advantage' of the disciplinary hearing process, it seems, is that accused students have minimal due process protections, and — since sexual assault is, of course, a crime — law enforcement can then use student disciplinary proceedings to obtain information that they could not, under the Constitution, in a normal police investigation."

Ms. Schow pointed out that UW's campus sexual assault guide does not mention that their testimony is subject to a subpoena. Ashe Schow is a reporter for the Washington Examiner. KC Johnson is a professor of history who has written a book on Title IX and campus sexual assault. Scott Greenfield is a lawyer who has written about these cases for a number of years.

With all due respect, your position is too trusting of our legal system. There have been well over one hundred successful suits brought against colleges and universities by former students. There was also at least one that IMO should have been successful but was not. During the hearing in front of a panel of judges, one asked "Where's the Kangaroo?" Who knows how many other suits might have been successful if the potential plaintiff possessed sufficient resources to mount one?

Have you ever discussed a Title IX hearing with a student who has been through one? If you never have, you could do worse than to read the link to the filing that I previously gave. Your position also overlooks the problem that once one is expelled from one school, another school may not admit him or her. Perhaps for this reason an anonymous college or university president was quoted in The Economist as saying that Title IX hearing panels can mete out "career capital punishment."
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Old 22nd January 2019, 06:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Ms. Schow pointed out that UW's campus sexual assault guide does not mention that their testimony is subject to a subpoena.
I would have thought that this went without saying. I would have thought that any non-judicial organisation can have its records subpoenaed if they are relevant in a legal case.

I'd also assume that were it a company that you were working for, and they did an internal investigation and disciplinary meeting, that the police would have just as much ability to subpoena any of the records towards that meeting or any others related to the matter, regardless of Miranda. Would that not be correct?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:54 PM   #46
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two processes

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would have thought that this went without saying. I would have thought that any non-judicial organisation can have its records subpoenaed if they are relevant in a legal case. EDT: My point is that they might not be in a good position to think the matter through.

I'd also assume that were it a company that you were working for, and they did an internal investigation and disciplinary meeting, that the police would have just as much ability to subpoena any of the records towards that meeting or any others related to the matter, regardless of Miranda. Would that not be correct?
I will have to defer to lawyers on this question. However, I see no harm in putting it into the document in question. The respondents sometimes have little time to prepare their cases and at some schools are not allowed to have a lawyer actively participate in the process.

I wouldn't mind taking this opportunity to suggest that the college process should wait until the police process is over. The court system has subpoena power, whereas the TIX system does not. Therefore, the police and the courts can turn up both inculpatory and exculpatory information that would not otherwise be available. This suggestion is not a panacea. In a recent case at Yale, a person was found not guilty on the basis of video evidence that contradicted the accuser's account of her level of inebriation. Yet Yale expelled him. His accuser could not be cross-examined, and his lawyer could attend but not speak at the TIX hearing.

With respect to the second UW-Madison case, it may be that staying the University's actions would have led to a more just outcome. My reading was that the respondent in the Title IX case was developing exculpatory evidence: "By letter dated June 6, 2018, Mr. Meyer advised Defendant Hasselbacher of critical, exculpatory information obtained by law enforcement, the Madison Police Department and the Dane County District Attorney’s office, which refuted the allegations of the Complainants. Such evidence included toxicology reports, security camera footage, a forensic examination of Plaintiff’s phone and the results of the execution of a search warrant of Plaintiff’s apartment." The filing later stated that "During all of these interactions with Plaintiff’s counsel, at no point did Defendant Hasselbacher ever advise them that she would be issuing her Investigative Report, regardless of the Plaintiff’s participation, by August 31, 2018"
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:08 AM   #47
luchog
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
With all due respect, your position is too trusting of our legal system. There have been well over one hundred successful suits brought against colleges and universities by former students. There was also at least one that IMO should have been successful but was not. During the hearing in front of a panel of judges, one asked "Where's the Kangaroo?" Who knows how many other suits might have been successful if the potential plaintiff possessed sufficient resources to mount one?

With all due respect, you're conflating too many unrelated things, and ignoring the huge problems that Title IX was created to address. Is it perfect, no, of course, not, nothing human can ever be. That's why we have multiple avenues to address these issues, each acting as a check on the other. Private institutions like universities and corporations are checked by the courts, courts have layers of checks and balances through the appeals process, civil courts can redress to some degree what criminal courts do not, and the legislature exists to craft legislation to address address all these issues and establish frameworks and guidelines. And when the courts and legislature does not adequately address issues, private institutions can do so through internal policies and procedures that do not violate existing laws.

The current system is far from ideal, but it's a sight better than the previous situation where rape victims had no recourse whatsoever, and were routinely dismissed by law enforcement. Unfortunately, too many people with otherwise good intentions are making the perfect the enemy of the good; while others -- who are not always acting in good faith -- are using the small number of edge cases to attempt to discredit the entire system, and return to the old days where they wouldn't have to be held accountable for their actions.

We're in a state of flux right now, and the culture is going to take time to catch up, and things are going to be messy until it does; but it is improving despite setbacks. The answer to problematic edge cases is not to decry the entire system as "kangaroo courts" and demand that it be discarded wholesale (while whining about "political correctness gone mad" and "evil feminists trying to destroy men"), the answer is to work to improve the system, using all available channels and checks and balances, adding safeguards where needed to address edge cases.
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Old 24th January 2019, 04:55 PM   #48
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And now the process is starting in New Mexico of 'reforming' sexual assault to favour the 'complainant'. At least the proposer was not careless enough to refer to the 'complainant' as 'Victim/Survivor'


Quote:
[A]dopt detailed, complainant-centered policies and procedures for the investigation of and disciplinary procedures addressing allegations of sexual assault, domestic violence, dating violence, and harassment or stalking involving a student, faculty member, employee, contractor, or regent both on and off campus.

https://legiscan.com/NM/text/HB133/id/1833032
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Old 8th February 2019, 09:04 AM   #49
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Updated article about the incredible damage the incompetent and unconstitutional regulations under the Obama regime have caused:

"Just in: @csunorthridge is the latest California school on the losing side of a due process decision b/c it found a student guilty w/o providing him a hearing, or any chance to x-examine his accuser."

https://twitter.com/kcjohnson9/statu...85506058141696

"With last night’s CSU-Northridge decision, it’s now 133 colleges on losing side of decision in acc’d students’ lawsuits since the Dear Colleague letter."

133 lives ruined at least. Disgraceful
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