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Tags donald trump , gun control issues , gun control laws , stephen paddock , Trump controversies

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Old 20th December 2018, 07:16 PM   #121
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I've always seen it as something like a feedback loop. It starts on one side with a push to ban them for whatever reason, which drives those opposed to that to obtain them as a "protest" action. The controversy feeds the public perception of them as "scary", "dangerous", etc, so they end up becoming the choice for people looking to pull off mass shootings. That feeds back into the starting point, rinse, repeat.
Better to be seen as not doing anything at all*. That's always the best strategy.



*I'm talking about the NRA here.
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Old 20th December 2018, 09:53 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Did you miss the part in bold, which actually happened?
Bump stock wasn't a must as Omar Mateen achieved similar results without one.

Last edited by Baylor; 20th December 2018 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 20th December 2018, 10:10 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Like a crowd of people?
Exactly. It's a modification to increase the amount of shots fired per second. Bad for accuracy but good to create mass carnage in a crowd.
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Old 20th December 2018, 10:31 PM   #124
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Bump stock wasn't a must as Omar Mateen achieved similar results without one.
And? It's a loophole that has been closed. Deal with it.
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Old 20th December 2018, 11:52 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Bump stock wasn't a must as Omar Mateen achieved similar results without one.
Did you miss the rest of the thread after my initial post?
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:25 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm still old enough to remember when the M-16 and 5.56 were jokes, a plastic toy gun that shoots a souped up varmint round in the eyes of most gun fanatics.
The gun has evolved greatly since the 1950's. They are available in many chamberings up to 51 caliber. I have one in 458 socom which shoots 600 grain bullets.

Quote:
It's been kind weird watching it become "the" symbol of the gun debate.
Nothing sells like something banned. Guns as well as books.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:28 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think falling on the safe side would require assuming it was sarcasm.
On other forums yes. But here I expect a higher level of debate.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:30 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
And? It's a loophole that has been closed. Deal with it.
A loophole? It seems you didn't read the new rule. There was no loophole and they did not attempt to close one. They simply expanded the definition of a machine gun, again.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:43 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
To me, it seems like a distinction without an effective difference, which makes it possible for an inexperienced user to have something with the effect of automatic fire, as opposed to needing skill to bump-fire a normal self-loading firearm.
The crux of the issue is the way the law is written. The NFA defines automatic fire as repeated shots by a single function of the trigger. With bump stocks and other similar devices, the trigger only fires a single round per function. The trigger resets and returns to the forward position each cycle, identical to that of semi-automatic fire. The ATF might argue that a bump stock allows a shooters finger to serve as a static mechanical linkage and utilizes solely the recoil of the rifle to automatically trip the trigger, but it's a stretch and something that will probably have to be decided in court.

The cleaner way to deal with this would be to amend the NFA, but there is no political will for this to happen. Bump stocks aren't the only way people can approximate automatic fire while meeting the "single function of the trigger" standard. Manual trigger cranks are also NFA compliant and allow fast firing.

For any given definition of "automatic fire", you can be assured that devices will be invented that get as close as possible while remaining legal. It's a legalistic arms race.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:22 AM   #130
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Ranb Thanks for the reply, I appreciate you taking time to answer and it has made things a little clearer to me. Would you say then that within the gun owning community those who want to own bump stocks tend to be outliers? That would make some sense to me.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:35 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
.... Would you say then that within the gun owning community those who want to own bump stocks tend to be outliers? That would make some sense to me.
Well, I've only met one person at the range who had a bump stock; he let me try it out. So I suppose based on my limited experience they are outliers. But then so am I based on the much maligned (on this forum) firearms I own.

I read that there are about half a million bump stock owners in the USA. This would make them a rather small percentage of people directly affected by the ban.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:42 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I can't get links to the new UK law to load while on my work computer. Why are the lever release rifles being banned? Are they an actual problem?
Obviously there is a ban on centre-fire semi-auto rifles in the UK, but straight-pull versions - and even conversions - are OK.

In MARS (Manually Actuated Release System) and lever release actions, after the first round is fired, the casing is ejected, and the bolt is held open until a secondary action by the shooter releases it to load the next round, ready to be fired. In lever release actions the bolt is released by a toggle or lever that can be actuated by the thumb of the trigger hand without taking the finger off the trigger; in MARS actions a second pull of the trigger releases the bolt.

The general reasoning is that MARS and lever release actions are far closer in functionality to semi-auto than straight-pull, and so should be restricted in the same way that semi-autos are.

Lever release AR-15:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


MARS VZ58:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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Old 21st December 2018, 07:38 AM   #133
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I understood how the lever release rifles worked, just wondering why they going to be banned. It comes down to the UK not liking how easy they are to operate I suppose?

Will they next set their sights on AR-15's that lack a gas tube and with a bolt that must be manually opened and closed?
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:35 AM   #134
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I'd agree that bump stocks are outliers. I'm not as avid as Ranb, but I do own guns and frequent the range, etc, etc. I've not seen bump stocks in use.

That being said, I avoid the NRA, so they may be more common amongst the more fanatical gun owners.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:37 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
On other forums yes. But here I expect a higher level of debate.
You can go bump yourself, thank you very much! I expect my posts here to have a maximum level of sarcasm. It's bad enough I can't even write **** here. Don't take my sarcasm away!
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:25 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Better to be seen as not doing anything at all*. That's always the best strategy.



*I'm talking about the NRA here.
I wish the NRA would drop out. I was a member ages ago, but left after a brief time, because quite frankly, I think they're doing more damage than not.

I'm a proponent of the right to bear arms, but also a believer in reasonable restrictions.

But that's neither here nor there.

On the bump stocks thing, I don't really care one way or the other. They're a gimmick; if they're banned, it doesn't hurt me any. If they aren't, they don't really add a lot of effectiveness in any situation. They contribute to a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of gun violence and injury. My problem, and I think Ranb's (although forgive me if I put words in his mouth) is the way this ban came about. It's like redefining cats as a breed of dog so you can require them to buy dog licenses. Even if licensing them is the right thing to do, this isn't the right way to do it, and it's legally shaky as well.

I'm not going to celebrate an end result that I might agree with, if it's accomplished using means that are unjustified.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:30 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
As far as I know bump fire stocks never made someone commit a crime.
How is this an argument for or against anything?
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:51 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
How is this an argument for or against anything?
I'll let you figure it out, again. I'm tired of pissing into the wind.
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Old 24th December 2018, 05:05 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
I see it as both meaningless and meaningful -

Meaningless because bump stocks aren't needed to bump fire a semi-auto and are a gimmick. Nutbags like Paddock can achieve similar body counts without one. Banning them does very little.

Meaningful because Trump has now pissed off a good portion of the base. If the cold dead hands crowd turns on him it could make re-election difficult. This is why democrats should be praising him and shouting it from the rafters, if they can keep down their breakfast, that is.
I agree with most of this, except that my understanding is that it makes it easier for non-experts to emulate select fire. ETA: so it lowers the barrier for people to commit spree shootings on a whim - without needing to learn how to become expert

ETA: In support of your view - Face it, there's a reason why troops generally use single shots in battle unless they have something designed as a machine gun.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:36 PM   #140
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Facebook; the amount of crazy I'm seeing in it since Trump got elected is perplexing. I have various facebook friends who have sent friend requests my way in the last decade. Mostly co-workers and people I knew in high school. Some are conservative and other are liberal; they run a rather wide part of the spectrum.

Since I've commented on Trump's flip flop on gun control and who pays for the wall things have started to get a bit nuts. People who I've known to claim to support gun rights have now turned 180 degrees in order to support Trump. The same self-described tea partyers who had no problem with me owning a semi-auto rifle and making my own silencers now claim that I must be wanting to kill someone.

When I said I didn't vote for either Clinton or Trump, all of a sudden it's like I didn't vote at all. I talk a lot about lobbying efforts and who supports this or that bill with these people, but I'm just another commie liberal who wants to give away the country now that I dare say Trump is for Trump and not a defender of any civil rights.

It's a mad mad mad world out there.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:30 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
When I said I didn't vote for either Clinton or Trump, all of a sudden it's like I didn't vote at all.
That part is true.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:58 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
That part is true.
Surely you understand that in the United States there are in addition to national elections, state and county elections?

Oh wait, I'm replying to the person who makes claims he has no rational reason to believe are true then resists looking at links provided to show what is actually happening in the real world.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:36 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Surely you understand that in the United States there are in addition to national elections, state and county elections?
You understand that people are talking about the office of presidency when they say you didn't vote at all if you didn't vote Clinton or Trump, right? And don't call me Shirley.
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Old 5th February 2019, 12:34 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Facebook; the amount of crazy I'm seeing . . .

It's a mad mad mad world out there.
Thank you confirming my decision not to join FB. I appreciate your sacrifice.
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Old 7th February 2019, 09:20 PM   #145
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I've been told by some of my facebook friends that calling Trump a gun grabber is wrong. Obama was mocked for going after guns, but when Trump does it we need to treat him with kid gloves. That's what I'm being told anyway. It seems when Trump bans a gun we "had it coming", or "we didn't really need that gun" or you know, "Trump rules". How do those pseudo gun nuts breathe with their heads so far up Trump's rectum?

Trump got the Code of Federal Regulations changed to define a bump stock as a machine gun. Possession of a bump stock after March 2019 can mean 10 years/$10k fine. I know some people on this forum think this is a good idea even if it doesn't have a chance in hell of saving any lives.

WA passed a bill allowing guns to be taken away from some people who might present a threat after some due process; RCW 7.94 Extreme Risk Protection Order Act. https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.94
Quote:
There shall exist an action known as a petition for an extreme risk protection order.
(1) A petition for an extreme risk protection order may be filed by (a) a family or household member of the respondent or (b) a law enforcement officer or agency.
(3) A petition must:
(a) Allege that the respondent poses a significant danger of causing personal injury to self or others by having in his or her custody or control, purchasing, possessing, or receiving a firearm, and be accompanied by an affidavit made under oath stating the specific statements, actions, or facts that give rise to a reasonable fear of future dangerous acts by the respondent;
A metric butt-ton of people especially in WA think this is a good idea, but not Trump. Trump seems interested in skipping the due process and taking the guns right away.

He also seems to be interested in denying adults 18-20 years old the right to own rifles like the AR-15.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...process-second

But then the WA Examiner could be wrong and creating fake news with a fake video.

Last edited by Ranb; 7th February 2019 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 9th February 2019, 01:59 PM   #146
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I couldn't resist. This is the image I get in my head when I hear how Trump is going to safeguard American civil rights. When Sarah Huckabee Sanders is acting as Trump's apologist, I hear the king from Disney's Alice in Wonderland talking.



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