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Old 8th February 2019, 02:06 AM   #81
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Between you and Dave Rogers, I can't help it if you are missing the writing community's contribution to information here about what's going on.
I'm neither missing the point nor arguing that there isn't a serious issue; I'm simply pointing out that no books have been burned, no deals have been "trashed," and that over-stating your case makes it easier for the prejudiced to ignore. What has happened here is that a number of people have loudly expressed a criticism of a book, arguably based on ignorance, the author has withdrawn the book in order to consider whether the criticism merits response, and the publisher has stated publically that it will respect the author's wishes. So while you're complaining that a whole bunch of people are over-reacting and framing a non-issue in emotive language, perhaps you should take a quick look at the mote in your own eye and ask yourself why you're doing something disturbingly similar.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

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Old 8th February 2019, 06:23 AM   #82
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Dave summarized the issue better than I could have. I will also add: Making anti-SJW outrage appear out of thin air is the world's easiest magic trick.
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This really sounds like you're judging the quality of the criticism by the reaction of its recipient. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase?

Well, some of the criticism of this author is that the Whisper Network™ somehow magically knows when any computer user/author on the planet is taking screenshots - of the offending criticism or otherwise.

I guess the author should watch her step.
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:35 AM   #84
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Can't anybody write a fantasy novel for young adult girls without any princesses?!
The heroine can be white, black or colored, but please don't have her be a princess!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Can't anybody write a fantasy novel for young adult girls without any princesses?!
The heroine can be white, black or colored, but please don't have her be a princess!
'I'm glad our magic kingdom has neither racism nor princesses,' remarked Countess Ambyr Whitely. 'Instruct the melanin-abundant serfs to prepare my unicorn chariot!'
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:48 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It totally is: Chosen one, special powers yadda yadda.

But every once in a while a fresh story comes along. I have not read Blood Heir yet but I will when it's published.

I recently read another YT novel, Children of Blood and Bone, because it appeared to be based on the Orisha religion/mythology, which I know from Cuba.
But it was also about a chosen one with special powers, princes and princesses etc. I got through 75% of the book but just couldn't finish it.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:50 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'I'm glad our magic kingdom has neither racism nor princesses,' remarked Countess Ambyr Whitely. 'Instruct the melanin-abundant serfs to prepare my unicorn chariot!'
Milord, the bicorns are raising a ruckus
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Old 8th February 2019, 10:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I recently read another YT novel, Children of Blood and Bone, because it appeared to be based on the Orisha religion/mythology, which I know from Cuba.
But it was also about a chosen one with special powers, princes and princesses etc. I got through 75% of the book but just couldn't finish it.
Obviously the classics of my youth are superior in every way to modern books. The Chronicles of Prydain featured a princess who kicked butt and a hero who was explicitly not special at all.

And I swear there's a gay subtext with Ellidyr and nobody can convince me otherwise.
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And I swear there's a gay subtext with Ellidyr and nobody can convince me otherwise.

Really?! (I know nothing about the series apart from what I just read on Wikipedia)

Quote:
Ellidyr
Ellidyr is described as a prince, the son of a king who had nothing left to leave his son but "his name and his sword." He is deeply sensitive about his poverty, and covers this with arrogance, treating all whom he does not see as social equals with disdain and contempt. Adaon, with the aid of a magic talisman, sees this as a "black beast," sitting on Ellidyr's shoulders and tormenting him. At the end of the story, however, after realizing his follies, Ellidyr willingly sacrifices his own life to destroy the Black Cauldron.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:45 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Dave summarized the issue better than I could have. I will also add: Making anti-SJW outrage appear out of thin air is the world's easiest magic trick.
And a good reason for that is a lot of the stupidity we get from SJWs. Their motives are good, but their execution is terrible.
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Old 8th February 2019, 12:53 PM   #91
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I don't see what is has to do with book burning, but do you think that AOC is a SJW?

If so, what's wrong with her execution?

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:20 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Dave summarized the issue better than I could have. I will also add: Making anti-SJW outrage appear out of thin air is the world's easiest magic trick.
So you have evidence or some knowledge that the critics that instigated this had valid points about the book being racist?

You are essentially taking their side here, claiming the attack on the critics could be the problem when pretty much all the evidence is the book is not racist (author's explanation, publisher and agent impressed by the book noticed no such thing, and there's support by the writing community that have read parts of the book).
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:22 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I recently read another YT novel, Children of Blood and Bone, because it appeared to be based on the Orisha religion/mythology, which I know from Cuba.
But it was also about a chosen one with special powers, princes and princesses etc. I got through 75% of the book but just couldn't finish it.
Everyone's raving about it. I'm about 8 chapters in and so far it seems like the same old story line to me. But I'll probably finish it to try to figure out what everyone is raving about.
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't see what is has to do with book burning, but do you think that AOC is a SJW?...
No. It doesn't mean one is advocating a certain POV. It's when that POV looks down the nose at other people, usually in a ludicrously extreme way.

Claiming to see not only black slavery that isn't there, but being offended it's a book element in a fictional work? That's getting SJW carried away.
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Old 8th February 2019, 04:38 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm neither missing the point nor arguing that there isn't a serious issue; I'm simply pointing out that no books have been burned, no deals have been "trashed," and that over-stating your case makes it easier for the prejudiced to ignore. What has happened here is that a number of people have loudly expressed a criticism of a book, arguably based on ignorance, the author has withdrawn the book in order to consider whether the criticism merits response, and the publisher has stated publically that it will respect the author's wishes. So while you're complaining that a whole bunch of people are over-reacting and framing a non-issue in emotive language, perhaps you should take a quick look at the mote in your own eye and ask yourself why you're doing something disturbingly similar.

Dave
And I explained to you that we see the story with different POVs yet you insist I see the story the way you do. I don't.

BTW, that's quite the straw man distortion of over-reacting. This is not about overreacting. It's about a small clique of SJWs attacking the work of a new author with an unreasonable accusation.
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Old 9th February 2019, 07:50 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Everyone's raving about it. I'm about 8 chapters in and so far it seems like the same old story line to me. But I'll probably finish it to try to figure out what everyone is raving about.

It's only gets worse. There's a Colosseum-like naval battle that's even more absurd than quidditch. And the romance stories are unbearable.
I'm not a teenage girl, of course, but I think that it's the kind of story that they'll look back on and shake their heads, wondering how they could stomach that ****. Unlike the good YA stuff that even grownups can read and enjoy.
And it's too bad, 'cause the Orisha stories could probably be turned into something interesting for modern readers, young and old. I enjoyed His Dark Materials, which I only read because it was supposed to be atheist (but wasn't really).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th February 2019, 11:55 AM   #97
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I loved His Dark Materials. If you haven't read Daughter of Smoke and Bone, that's another excellent book in this genre I highly recommend. It's a trilogy.
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Old 9th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And I explained to you that we see the story with different POVs yet you insist I see the story the way you do. I don't.

BTW, that's quite the straw man distortion of over-reacting. This is not about overreacting. It's about a small clique of SJWs attacking the work of a new author with an unreasonable accusation.
It's also about unnecessary exaggeration on your part by claiming an outcome that clearly hadn't actually occurred.

Dave
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And a good reason for that is a lot of the stupidity we get from SJWs. Their motives are good, but their execution is terrible.
When they're being completely irrational while attacking people, their motives are not good. At that point, it's just performance art, and the motive is scoring points with others on their "side" and relishing the sheer hedonistic joy of bullying. It's completely divorced from any sort of pursuit of justice.
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It's also about unnecessary exaggeration on your part by claiming an outcome that clearly hadn't actually occurred.

Dave
Round and around.

Perhaps I need to spell it out. Are you unable to understand one person's "unnecessary exaggeration" is another person's understatement?

This is a very big deal in the YA writers' and other fiction writers' circles.
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:45 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Perhaps I need to spell it out.
Perhaps you do. Start by saying what you meant when you said the deal was "trashed". That's the overstatement I object to.

Dave
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Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 9th February 2019, 06:55 PM   #102
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Guess spelling it out didn't help. You don't like my vocabulary choice? Meh.

Time to move on.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:03 AM   #103
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I'm curious what the right move is for a young, unproven writer trying to enter the YA market. Many of them are sensitive to write stories that include long neglected communities, but it seems that doing so opens you up to this ridiculous criticism from nitpickers who label things racist simply for the thrill of twitter mobbing some vulnerable schmuck.

It's a strange state of affairs. The only people really vulnerable to these absurd complaints are writers who actually care about acceptance from this community. What would have happened, I wonder, if the author hadn't pulled the book? Would the twitter mob keep getting more and more angry. After all, lack of contrition is often more proof of guilt in these kinds of things. Or would have it all eventually blown over? I honestly don't know.

To be honest, being a YA author sounds exhausting. The audience is practically guaranteed to be melodramatic, hypersensitive, and extremely active on social media.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:09 PM   #104
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I think this author in particular, from what I've read about her, is she was sensitive to the attacks, not that she was worried about the public's reaction to the book. Once she sees that she has strong support from the writing community, I'm hoping she'll release the book and not change it to appease the SJWs.

IMO:
As for pressure on writers, if you try to force writing about issues and groups of people, it's likely your book will feel forced. If people stick a black character here or a gay relationship there for the sake of integration it usually weakens the work. If on the other hand, you feel a calling (for lack of a better word) to a particular story, that motivation can make a stronger story. Bottom line is, write the story you want to tell, not the story you think publishers are looking to buy.

As for "The audience is practically guaranteed to be melodramatic, hypersensitive,..." that's crap. You are conflating a couple book reviewers with a whole community. Active on social media, OTOH, that's a given.
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