Today's Mass Shooting - Page 19

Trebuchet · 23rd January 2019, 08:51 PM

It's the victims' fault for not having guns themselves, of course. Unless they are actually vicsims.

Nessie · 24th January 2019, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

Why? There has only been 19 so far, and only one with five dead.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting

"They" have stopped trying.

Norm

2018 was down from 2017. 57,002 compared to 61,917.

arthwollipot · 24th January 2019, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

2018 was down from 2017. 57,002 compared to 61,917.

As I never tire of saying, down from ludicrously ridiculously high to only ludicrously high.

William Parcher · 24th January 2019, 05:21 PM

He killed everyone in the bank. Four employees and one customer. All were female. He made them lay face-down on the floor and then shot them in the back of the head with a 9mm handgun. He was wearing a ballistic vest.

a_unique_person · 25th January 2019, 01:52 AM

Was he an illegal immigrant?

quadraginta · 25th January 2019, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Was he an illegal immigrant?

Not yet, but give Alex time.

Nessie · 26th January 2019, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

As I never tire of saying, down from ludicrously ridiculously high to only ludicrously high.

Indeed, the UK figure for mass shootings in 2018 was 0, which was the same as 2017. I am not sure of any (outwith terrorist attacks) in Europe either.

novaphile · 26th January 2019, 03:32 PM

I'm hoping that the numbers will continue to decline as the effects of lead poisoning, from leaded petrol, continue to decline.

Unfortunately, that seems to mean as the affected people become too infirm to commit violent crimes, or die.

There's a long tail on some of these things...

William Parcher · 26th January 2019, 04:09 PM

5 dead after shooting spree in Louisiana

Originally Posted by CNN

A manhunt is underway in Louisiana following a string of shootings that left the suspect's parents and 3 others dead, law enforcement officials said.

Authorities are looking for 21-year Dakota Theriot after two Saturday morning shootings in Ascension and Livingston parishes, near Baton Rouge...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/us/lo...ngs/index.html

Steve · 26th January 2019, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

5 dead after shooting spree in Louisiana

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/us/lo...ngs/index.html

Just another day in the USA.

Wolrab · 26th January 2019, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Indeed, the UK figure for mass shootings in 2018 was 0, which was the same as 2017. I am not sure of any (outwith terrorist attacks) in Europe either.

So no change, eh? At least the rate dropped in the US.

Steve · 26th January 2019, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

So no change, eh? At least the rate dropped in the US.

Way to stay positive

a_unique_person · 26th January 2019, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

5 dead after shooting spree in Louisiana

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/us/lo...ngs/index.html

Is he an illegal immigrant?

Nessie · 27th January 2019, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

So no change, eh? At least the rate dropped in the US.

I know, we Brits must improve on 0 mass shootings last year.

Nessie · 27th January 2019, 03:57 AM

There have been 24 mass shootings so far in 2019 (to yesterday 26th Jan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2019

Last year there had been 16 to the same date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2018

bluesjnr · 27th January 2019, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Is he an illegal immigrant?

It's bad enough to make a stupidly naive political statement couched as a question (which is, in itself, a derail) but to double down on it?

luchog · 28th January 2019, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

There have been 24 mass shootings so far in 2019 (to yesterday 26th Jan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2019

Last year there had been 16 to the same date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2018

It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common.

There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases.

Dr. Keith · 28th January 2019, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by luchog

It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common.

There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases.

How many were committed by women?

Kestrel · 29th January 2019, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by luchog

It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common.

There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases.

The Gun Violence Archive has details on shooting incidents in the United States.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting

Nessie · 29th January 2019, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by luchog

It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common.

There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases.

From what I have read, the a large proportion are gang related. That the point being made by many here who objected to legislation that would affect the generally law abiding. They do not cause much of the problem and there is already legislation that allows the police to get guns of criminals and gang members. They just need to start properly enforcing it and the supply needs to be dried up.

I then realised that was going to be pretty much impossible to achieve, so the USA has to just develop coping strategies.

Dr. Keith · 29th January 2019, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

From what I have read, the a large proportion are gang related. That the point being made by many here who objected to legislation that would affect the generally law abiding. They do not cause much of the problem and there is already legislation that allows the police to get guns of criminals and gang members. They just need to start properly enforcing it and the supply needs to be dried up.

I then realised that was going to be pretty much impossible to achieve, so the USA has to just develop coping strategies.

You could blame gangs, which would cover most gun violence, maybe even 60 or 70%. Or you could blame men, which would cover more than 95% of mass shootings.

As a man I find this very disturbing. This is an American problem, but it is a problem caused almost entirely by one half of America, American men.

Should it be much harder for men to buy guns in America?

Dr.Sid · 29th January 2019, 09:37 AM

Does someone track if the shooting was done by legally owned gun ?

Steve · 29th January 2019, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Does someone track if the shooting was done by legally owned gun ?

Guns don't shoot people........( we all know the drill

)

Dr. Keith · 29th January 2019, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Does someone track if the shooting was done by legally owned gun ?

One problem with guns being so easily obtained is that there is very little difference in price between a legally owned gun and an illegally owned gun.

Imagine it was illegal for a diabetic in your country to buy, own, or possess a can of soda. But there was no real enforcement except at the cash register. So, if your brother was diabetic he could come over to your house and drink your legally owned soda without you facing any real consequences. In fact, he could buy soda from friends who didn't even know he was a diabetic without breaking any law.

At that point, it doesn't really matter if the sodas is legally owned or not, they are just ubiquitous.

luchog · 29th January 2019, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

From what I have read, the a large proportion are gang related. That the point being made by many here who objected to legislation that would affect the generally law abiding. They do not cause much of the problem and there is already legislation that allows the police to get guns of criminals and gang members. They just need to start properly enforcing it and the supply needs to be dried up.

Except that, thanks to the NRA and their lackeys in Congress, those laws are almost toothless, and do very little to prevent gangs from acquiring firearms of all sorts.

Straw purchases in states with lax background check and reporting requirements account for a huge percentage of otherwise legal firearms ending up in the hands of gang members and other criminals. Stolen weapons account for a smaller but still very large percentage. Given the sheer number of legally-possessed firearms in this country, it's impossible to keep criminals from obtaining firearms. In some states, it's easier to obtain guns illegally than it is to purchase them through legal means.

Dr.Sid · 29th January 2019, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

One problem with guns being so easily obtained is that there is very little difference in price between a legally owned gun and an illegally owned gun.

Imagine it was illegal for a diabetic in your country to buy, own, or possess a can of soda. But there was no real enforcement except at the cash register. So, if your brother was diabetic he could come over to your house and drink your legally owned soda without you facing any real consequences. In fact, he could buy soda from friends who didn't even know he was a diabetic without breaking any law.

At that point, it doesn't really matter if the sodas is legally owned or not, they are just ubiquitous.

Sure .. still there are important differences. If most of the crime is done with legally held (obtained) weapons, it means you can affect it somehow with rules of how to obtain them. Not entirelly, sure.
If most is illegal, but obtained legally and then transferred, you should prevent the transfer in the first place. For example where I live the guns are registered to the person, and you are responsible for the gun, and you must present it for inspection at any time. And if your gun gets stolen, it's on you.
I think the registration could be middle ground. But if the crime is dont using completely legal guns, registration would change nothing.

arthwollipot · 29th January 2019, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

The Gun Violence Archive has details on shooting incidents in the United States.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting

I've been told that that is a partisan site with an anti-gun agenda, and is therefore not to be believed. (

)

Dr. Keith · 29th January 2019, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Sure .. still there are important differences. If most of the crime is done with legally held (obtained) weapons, it means you can affect it somehow with rules of how to obtain them. Not entirelly, sure.
If most is illegal, but obtained legally and then transferred, you should prevent the transfer in the first place. For example where I live the guns are registered to the person, and you are responsible for the gun, and you must present it for inspection at any time. And if your gun gets stolen, it's on you.
I think the registration could be middle ground. But if the crime is dont using completely legal guns, registration would change nothing.

To the NRA "registration" is synonymous with "ban". So, while in your country the distinction is interesting, it is a bit of a non-starter, locally.

Also, they are not big fans of requiring much from person to person sales. That one boggles me a bit.

Norman Alexander · 29th January 2019, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've been told that that is a partisan site with an anti-gun agenda, and is therefore not to be believed. (

)

That is, when the facts contradict your operative fairy-tale, then the facts are wrong.

*SIGH*

autumn1971 · 30th January 2019, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

To the NRA "registration" is synonymous with "ban". So, while in your country the distinction is interesting, it is a bit of a non-starter, locally.

Also, they are not big fans of requiring much from person to person sales. That one boggles me a bit.

Yup, this is where the US is messed up. I could buy a rifle, handgun, or shotgun in a couple of hours of asking friends. There would be no background check or even reasonable questions about mental stability.

Much easier than going to a responsible dealer and getting one.

Dr. Keith · 30th January 2019, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Yup, this is where the US is messed up. I could buy a rifle, handgun, or shotgun in a couple of hours of asking friends. There would be no background check or even reasonable questions about mental stability.

Much easier than going to a responsible dealer and getting one.

My brother has more guns than shoes. He is constantly buying and selling guns. I don't think he has bought anything from a gun shop or licensed dealer in a decade or more.

Nessie · 31st January 2019, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

You could blame gangs, which would cover most gun violence, maybe even 60 or 70%. Or you could blame men, which would cover more than 95% of mass shootings.

As a man I find this very disturbing. This is an American problem, but it is a problem caused almost entirely by one half of America, American men.

Should it be much harder for men to buy guns in America?

It should be much harder for those unsuitable to have a gun, to be able to get one, by any means. The reason why no where else has the USA's problem is that everywhere else criminals, gangs, etc find it harder to get guns.

Nessie · 31st January 2019, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Yup, this is where the US is messed up. I could buy a rifle, handgun, or shotgun in a couple of hours of asking friends. There would be no background check or even reasonable questions about mental stability.

Much easier than going to a responsible dealer and getting one.

I do think that is the main issue, ease of access for everyone. The USA cannot control its gun problem because there are so many.

There is now the situation where for example, law abiding citizens in Texas with a CCW permit are heavily controlled, but the gangs and criminals of Texas can easily get a gun with no controls.

Dr. Keith · 31st January 2019, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I do think that is the main issue, ease of access for everyone. The USA cannot control its gun problem because there are so many.

There is now the situation where for example, law abiding citizens in Texas with a CCW permit are heavily controlled, but the gangs and criminals of Texas can easily get a gun with no controls.

Not really. It is a one day class and you don't even have to show you learned much. Then, you don't have to tell them if you have guns or how many or what type. And there are no additional restrictions on CC permit holders. At most, I'd say law abiding citizens may chose to sign up for more freedoms, but I would not say the are heavily controlled for having made that choice.

It is easy for anyone to get a gun in Texas. And most transfers gang members and criminals are perfectly legal from the sellers point of view unless the seller is a licensed dealer or knows that the person they are selling to is not allowed to have a gun. This is what is inaccurately referred to as the "gun-show loophole." It is so much bigger than any gun show.

Nessie · 31st January 2019, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Not really. It is a one day class and you don't even have to show you learned much. Then, you don't have to tell them if you have guns or how many or what type. And there are no additional restrictions on CC permit holders. At most, I'd say law abiding citizens may chose to sign up for more freedoms, but I would not say the are heavily controlled for having made that choice.

It is easy for anyone to get a gun in Texas. And most transfers gang members and criminals are perfectly legal from the sellers point of view unless the seller is a licensed dealer or knows that the person they are selling to is not allowed to have a gun. This is what is inaccurately referred to as the "gun-show loophole." It is so much bigger than any gun show.

The list of requirements to show that the applicant is a suitable person includes stuff that is not even needed in the UK, such as information about debt. Then the UK does not even require a one day class.

ponderingturtle · 31st January 2019, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The list of requirements to show that the applicant is a suitable person includes stuff that is not even needed in the UK, such as information about debt. Then the UK does not even require a one day class.

I didn't think you gave out concealed carry permits that easily.

Simply owning depending on the state is just buy the gun from someone. This is a crime if you are not legally allowed to own it but there isn't any kind of checking. The extra steps there were for a concealed carry permit.

Nessie · 31st January 2019, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I didn't think you gave out concealed carry permits that easily.

Simply owning depending on the state is just buy the gun from someone. This is a crime if you are not legally allowed to own it but there isn't any kind of checking. The extra steps there were for a concealed carry permit.

I was just saying that to get a UK firearms licence is about as hard for a law abiding Brit as it is for a law abiding Texan to get a CCW. They are roughly equivalent.

autumn1971 · 6th February 2019, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I was just saying that to get a UK firearms licence is about as hard for a law abiding Brit as it is for a law abiding Texan to get a CCW. They are roughly equivalent.

The difference is after one acquired the license. In the US one can lose the right to own a firearm only in theory. Enforcement is entirely of the “you promise you don’t have any guns? Okay then” variety.

a_unique_person · 11th February 2019, 07:07 PM

Five dead in Texas shooting. No suspects so a family mass shooting and suicide probably.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/5-found-d...g-sheriff-says

Kestrel · 12th February 2019, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

The difference is after one acquired the license. In the US one can lose the right to own a firearm only in theory. Enforcement is entirely of the “you promise you don’t have any guns? Okay then” variety.

It does happen on occasion. A friend told me about the police visiting his brother in law on an unrelated matter. The officers knew the brother in law had a felony record and noticed a large gun safe in his living room. They came back with a warrant to search the safe and discovered his gun collection.

When he acquired the guns it was perfectly legal in my state for a private party to sell a firearm to a stranger with no questions asked and no record of the sale. The buyer may have been committing a crime but the seller was not.

It is still that way in most states. Search for local private parties on Armslist selling guns you want. Meet somewhere and pay cash for the gun. Or go to a gun show and look for the private sellers. Pay cash to avoid creating a paper trail.

23rd January 2019, 08:51 PM	#721
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 21,111	It's the victims' fault for not having guns themselves, of course. Unless they are actually vicsims.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

24th January 2019, 07:49 AM	#722
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by fromdownunder Why? There has only been 19 so far, and only one with five dead. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting "They" have stopped trying. Norm 2018 was down from 2017. 57,002 compared to 61,917.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

24th January 2019, 04:27 PM	#723
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by Nessie 2018 was down from 2017. 57,002 compared to 61,917. As I never tire of saying, down from ludicrously ridiculously high to only ludicrously high.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

24th January 2019, 05:21 PM	#724
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 22,470	He killed everyone in the bank. Four employees and one customer. All were female. He made them lay face-down on the floor and then shot them in the back of the head with a 9mm handgun. He was wearing a ballistic vest.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

25th January 2019, 01:52 AM	#725
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 40,113	Was he an illegal immigrant?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

25th January 2019, 07:13 AM	#726
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 23,372	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Was he an illegal immigrant? Not yet, but give Alex time.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

26th January 2019, 04:44 AM	#727
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by arthwollipot As I never tire of saying, down from ludicrously ridiculously high to only ludicrously high. Indeed, the UK figure for mass shootings in 2018 was 0, which was the same as 2017. I am not sure of any (outwith terrorist attacks) in Europe either.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

26th January 2019, 03:32 PM	#728
novaphile Quester of Doglets Moderator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,815	I'm hoping that the numbers will continue to decline as the effects of lead poisoning, from leaded petrol, continue to decline. Unfortunately, that seems to mean as the affected people become too infirm to commit violent crimes, or die. There's a long tail on some of these things...
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

26th January 2019, 04:09 PM	#729
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 22,470	5 dead after shooting spree in Louisiana Originally Posted by CNN A manhunt is underway in Louisiana following a string of shootings that left the suspect's parents and 3 others dead, law enforcement officials said. Authorities are looking for 21-year Dakota Theriot after two Saturday morning shootings in Ascension and Livingston parishes, near Baton Rouge... https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/us/lo...ngs/index.html
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

26th January 2019, 04:22 PM	#730
Steve Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,960	Originally Posted by William Parcher 5 dead after shooting spree in Louisiana https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/us/lo...ngs/index.html Just another day in the USA.
Steve Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,960	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

26th January 2019, 09:16 PM	#731
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,475	Originally Posted by Nessie Indeed, the UK figure for mass shootings in 2018 was 0, which was the same as 2017. I am not sure of any (outwith terrorist attacks) in Europe either. So no change, eh? At least the rate dropped in the US.
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,475	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

26th January 2019, 09:28 PM	#732
Steve Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,960	Originally Posted by Wolrab So no change, eh? At least the rate dropped in the US. Way to stay positive
Steve Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,960	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

26th January 2019, 10:42 PM	#733
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 40,113	Originally Posted by William Parcher 5 dead after shooting spree in Louisiana https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/us/lo...ngs/index.html Is he an illegal immigrant?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

27th January 2019, 03:52 AM	#734
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by Wolrab So no change, eh? At least the rate dropped in the US. I know, we Brits must improve on 0 mass shootings last year.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

27th January 2019, 03:57 AM	#735
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	There have been 24 mass shootings so far in 2019 (to yesterday 26th Jan). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2019 Last year there had been 16 to the same date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2018
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

27th January 2019, 06:01 AM	#736
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 6,074	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Is he an illegal immigrant? It's bad enough to make a stupidly naive political statement couched as a question (which is, in itself, a derail) but to double down on it?
	__________________ A baby smoking? That's child abuse - UncaYimmy Your avatar really cracked me up the first hundred or so times I saw it...Now, it gets on my nerves.. - Skeptical Greg

28th January 2019, 06:46 AM	#737
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 15,363	Originally Posted by Nessie There have been 24 mass shootings so far in 2019 (to yesterday 26th Jan). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2019 Last year there had been 16 to the same date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...States_in_2018 It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common. There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

28th January 2019, 03:00 PM	#738
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 18,285	Originally Posted by luchog It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common. There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases. How many were committed by women?
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

29th January 2019, 06:37 AM	#739
Kestrel Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,949	Originally Posted by luchog It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common. There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases. The Gun Violence Archive has details on shooting incidents in the United States. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting
	Last edited by Kestrel; 29th January 2019 at 06:38 AM. Reason: Fix link

29th January 2019, 08:54 AM	#740
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by luchog It's weird how similar all of these shootings are. The vast majority end with 4-5 people dead or injured. On a cursory glance, the most common cause seems to be gang-related, with escalating arguments being the second most common, and most of those occurring in or around bars/nighclubs or otherwise alcohol-related. Home-invasion robberies seem to be third most common. There's not enough detail in the Wikipedia articles to say all of that for certain, though; and it's highly possible that a lot of those apparently gang-related shootings (drive-bys and such) are white supremacist attacks on minorities. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to differentiate, and the way that the shootings are performed seem to be very similar in many cases. From what I have read, the a large proportion are gang related. That the point being made by many here who objected to legislation that would affect the generally law abiding. They do not cause much of the problem and there is already legislation that allows the police to get guns of criminals and gang members. They just need to start properly enforcing it and the supply needs to be dried up. I then realised that was going to be pretty much impossible to achieve, so the USA has to just develop coping strategies.
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29th January 2019, 09:14 AM	#741
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 18,285	Originally Posted by Nessie From what I have read, the a large proportion are gang related. That the point being made by many here who objected to legislation that would affect the generally law abiding. They do not cause much of the problem and there is already legislation that allows the police to get guns of criminals and gang members. They just need to start properly enforcing it and the supply needs to be dried up. I then realised that was going to be pretty much impossible to achieve, so the USA has to just develop coping strategies. You could blame gangs, which would cover most gun violence, maybe even 60 or 70%. Or you could blame men, which would cover more than 95% of mass shootings. As a man I find this very disturbing. This is an American problem, but it is a problem caused almost entirely by one half of America, American men. Should it be much harder for men to buy guns in America?
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

29th January 2019, 09:37 AM	#742
Dr.Sid Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 1,873	Does someone track if the shooting was done by legally owned gun ?

29th January 2019, 10:16 AM	#743
Steve Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,960	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Does someone track if the shooting was done by legally owned gun ? Guns don't shoot people........( we all know the drill )
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29th January 2019, 10:41 AM	#744
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 18,285	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Does someone track if the shooting was done by legally owned gun ? One problem with guns being so easily obtained is that there is very little difference in price between a legally owned gun and an illegally owned gun. Imagine it was illegal for a diabetic in your country to buy, own, or possess a can of soda. But there was no real enforcement except at the cash register. So, if your brother was diabetic he could come over to your house and drink your legally owned soda without you facing any real consequences. In fact, he could buy soda from friends who didn't even know he was a diabetic without breaking any law. At that point, it doesn't really matter if the sodas is legally owned or not, they are just ubiquitous.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

29th January 2019, 12:47 PM	#745
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 15,363	Originally Posted by Nessie From what I have read, the a large proportion are gang related. That the point being made by many here who objected to legislation that would affect the generally law abiding. They do not cause much of the problem and there is already legislation that allows the police to get guns of criminals and gang members. They just need to start properly enforcing it and the supply needs to be dried up. Except that, thanks to the NRA and their lackeys in Congress, those laws are almost toothless, and do very little to prevent gangs from acquiring firearms of all sorts. Straw purchases in states with lax background check and reporting requirements account for a huge percentage of otherwise legal firearms ending up in the hands of gang members and other criminals. Stolen weapons account for a smaller but still very large percentage. Given the sheer number of legally-possessed firearms in this country, it's impossible to keep criminals from obtaining firearms. In some states, it's easier to obtain guns illegally than it is to purchase them through legal means.
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29th January 2019, 01:57 PM	#746
Dr.Sid Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 1,873	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith One problem with guns being so easily obtained is that there is very little difference in price between a legally owned gun and an illegally owned gun. Imagine it was illegal for a diabetic in your country to buy, own, or possess a can of soda. But there was no real enforcement except at the cash register. So, if your brother was diabetic he could come over to your house and drink your legally owned soda without you facing any real consequences. In fact, he could buy soda from friends who didn't even know he was a diabetic without breaking any law. At that point, it doesn't really matter if the sodas is legally owned or not, they are just ubiquitous. Sure .. still there are important differences. If most of the crime is done with legally held (obtained) weapons, it means you can affect it somehow with rules of how to obtain them. Not entirelly, sure. If most is illegal, but obtained legally and then transferred, you should prevent the transfer in the first place. For example where I live the guns are registered to the person, and you are responsible for the gun, and you must present it for inspection at any time. And if your gun gets stolen, it's on you. I think the registration could be middle ground. But if the crime is dont using completely legal guns, registration would change nothing.

29th January 2019, 04:00 PM	#747
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by Kestrel The Gun Violence Archive has details on shooting incidents in the United States. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting I've been told that that is a partisan site with an anti-gun agenda, and is therefore not to be believed. ()
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29th January 2019, 05:07 PM	#748
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 18,285	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Sure .. still there are important differences. If most of the crime is done with legally held (obtained) weapons, it means you can affect it somehow with rules of how to obtain them. Not entirelly, sure. If most is illegal, but obtained legally and then transferred, you should prevent the transfer in the first place. For example where I live the guns are registered to the person, and you are responsible for the gun, and you must present it for inspection at any time. And if your gun gets stolen, it's on you. I think the registration could be middle ground. But if the crime is dont using completely legal guns, registration would change nothing. To the NRA "registration" is synonymous with "ban". So, while in your country the distinction is interesting, it is a bit of a non-starter, locally. Also, they are not big fans of requiring much from person to person sales. That one boggles me a bit.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

29th January 2019, 05:17 PM	#749
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,220	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've been told that that is a partisan site with an anti-gun agenda, and is therefore not to be believed. () That is, when the facts contradict your operative fairy-tale, then the facts are wrong. SIGH
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30th January 2019, 10:00 AM	#750
autumn1971 Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,723	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith To the NRA "registration" is synonymous with "ban". So, while in your country the distinction is interesting, it is a bit of a non-starter, locally. Also, they are not big fans of requiring much from person to person sales. That one boggles me a bit. Yup, this is where the US is messed up. I could buy a rifle, handgun, or shotgun in a couple of hours of asking friends. There would be no background check or even reasonable questions about mental stability. Much easier than going to a responsible dealer and getting one.
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30th January 2019, 10:03 AM	#751
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 18,285	Originally Posted by autumn1971 Yup, this is where the US is messed up. I could buy a rifle, handgun, or shotgun in a couple of hours of asking friends. There would be no background check or even reasonable questions about mental stability. Much easier than going to a responsible dealer and getting one. My brother has more guns than shoes. He is constantly buying and selling guns. I don't think he has bought anything from a gun shop or licensed dealer in a decade or more.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

31st January 2019, 02:07 AM	#752
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith You could blame gangs, which would cover most gun violence, maybe even 60 or 70%. Or you could blame men, which would cover more than 95% of mass shootings. As a man I find this very disturbing. This is an American problem, but it is a problem caused almost entirely by one half of America, American men. Should it be much harder for men to buy guns in America? It should be much harder for those unsuitable to have a gun, to be able to get one, by any means. The reason why no where else has the USA's problem is that everywhere else criminals, gangs, etc find it harder to get guns.
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31st January 2019, 02:11 AM	#753
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by autumn1971 Yup, this is where the US is messed up. I could buy a rifle, handgun, or shotgun in a couple of hours of asking friends. There would be no background check or even reasonable questions about mental stability. Much easier than going to a responsible dealer and getting one. I do think that is the main issue, ease of access for everyone. The USA cannot control its gun problem because there are so many. There is now the situation where for example, law abiding citizens in Texas with a CCW permit are heavily controlled, but the gangs and criminals of Texas can easily get a gun with no controls.
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31st January 2019, 10:50 AM	#754
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 18,285	Originally Posted by Nessie I do think that is the main issue, ease of access for everyone. The USA cannot control its gun problem because there are so many. There is now the situation where for example, law abiding citizens in Texas with a CCW permit are heavily controlled, but the gangs and criminals of Texas can easily get a gun with no controls. Not really. It is a one day class and you don't even have to show you learned much. Then, you don't have to tell them if you have guns or how many or what type. And there are no additional restrictions on CC permit holders. At most, I'd say law abiding citizens may chose to sign up for more freedoms, but I would not say the are heavily controlled for having made that choice. It is easy for anyone to get a gun in Texas. And most transfers gang members and criminals are perfectly legal from the sellers point of view unless the seller is a licensed dealer or knows that the person they are selling to is not allowed to have a gun. This is what is inaccurately referred to as the "gun-show loophole." It is so much bigger than any gun show.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. Last edited by Dr. Keith; 31st January 2019 at 10:53 AM.

31st January 2019, 11:29 AM	#755
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,772	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith Not really. It is a one day class and you don't even have to show you learned much. Then, you don't have to tell them if you have guns or how many or what type. And there are no additional restrictions on CC permit holders. At most, I'd say law abiding citizens may chose to sign up for more freedoms, but I would not say the are heavily controlled for having made that choice. It is easy for anyone to get a gun in Texas. And most transfers gang members and criminals are perfectly legal from the sellers point of view unless the seller is a licensed dealer or knows that the person they are selling to is not allowed to have a gun. This is what is inaccurately referred to as the "gun-show loophole." It is so much bigger than any gun show. The list of requirements to show that the applicant is a suitable person includes stuff that is not even needed in the UK, such as information about debt. Then the UK does not even require a one day class.
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