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Tags donald trump , gun control issues , gun control laws , stephen paddock , Trump controversies

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Old 19th December 2018, 07:01 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A belt fed .30 cal machine gun would have been much, much more deadly. They are much steadier during periods of automatic fire and don't need to be reloaded as often. I see an M60 listed for 60k and M1919's for around 25k. Either of these would have been far superior to a bump stocked rifle.
But both, I presume, would be harder to sneak up to a 32nd floor hotel room.
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:27 PM   #82
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So let me see if I understand. The point of this bump stock is to increase the rate of fire of a weapon? How does this help with using said weapon for the reasons gun advocates give for owning such weapons - hunting, target shooting, self defence etc? I am not a gun owner or, being from the UK, ever likely to be one so it is a genuine question looking for more information.
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
So let me see if I understand. The point of this bump stock is to increase the rate of fire of a weapon?
Correct.

Quote:
How does this help with using said weapon for the reasons gun advocates give for owning such weapons - hunting, target shooting, self defence etc?
Is anyone at all making these claims? The only claim I've seen for wanting to own these stocks is dumping mags into a target that is close to the shooter. I suppose one could call that target shooting.
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But both, I presume, would be harder to sneak up to a 32nd floor hotel room.
Probably not. The Browning 50 (M2), for example, breaks down that could be taken up in trunks that would not cause any undue attention. I'd probably use a cart, as the damn thing is heavy, even with the barrel removed, but getting it into room wouldn't be an issue. Never fired a Browning 30, so can't speak to it, but the M60, you could get up to a room without any more trouble than an M16.

Keep them in cases and tip the bell hop and it's really not a problem.
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:54 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
So let me see if I understand. The point of this bump stock is to increase the rate of fire of a weapon? How does this help with using said weapon for the reasons gun advocates give for owning such weapons - hunting, target shooting, self defence etc? I am not a gun owner or, being from the UK, ever likely to be one so it is a genuine question looking for more information.
It's obvious: if you need to take down an entire herd of animals, a crowd of concert goers, or an invading caravan of migrants, a bump stock is a must.
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Old 19th December 2018, 08:02 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Probably not. The Browning 50 (M2), for example, breaks down that could be taken up in trunks that would not cause any undue attention. I'd probably use a cart, as the damn thing is heavy, even with the barrel removed, but getting it into room wouldn't be an issue. Never fired a Browning 30, so can't speak to it, but the M60, you could get up to a room without any more trouble than an M16.

Keep them in cases and tip the bell hop and it's really not a problem.
I understand. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 19th December 2018, 08:12 PM   #87
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Good move on the part of the Trump Administration
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Old 20th December 2018, 06:10 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
So let me see if I understand. The point of this bump stock is to increase the rate of fire of a weapon? How does this help with using said weapon for the reasons gun advocates give for owning such weapons - hunting, target shooting, self defence etc? I am not a gun owner or, being from the UK, ever likely to be one so it is a genuine question looking for more information.
Purely recreational. You won't see any bump stocks at any serious competition, or any other serious endeavor involving firearms.

People buy bump stocks the same reason people shoot up old TV's and occasionally accidentally start destructive forest fires with tannerite filled targets. It's low-brow firearm recreation and the shooting community has no shortage of dimwits to buy all this tacky junk.

I think the venn diagram of bump stock owners and truck nut owners is practically a perfect circle.
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Old 20th December 2018, 06:27 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But both, I presume, would be harder to sneak up to a 32nd floor hotel room.
People travel with all kinds of crap. I don't think a hotel worker would bat an eye at someone carting up multiple steamer trunks to their rooms. So long as the cases weren't obviously rifle cases, no one would notice. Even then, they might not be suspicious. Lots of rifle ranges in Nevada.
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Old 20th December 2018, 06:58 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For those that are curious, this is what they do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IOZ-5Nk5k


Dude just lost his $400.
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:02 AM   #91
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I think this got approached from the wrong angle.

"Bump Stocks" were just at thing specifically created to get around existing laws about modifying a weapon to fire full auto.

You just banded a stop-gap method, not a goal or purpose.

"The use, manufacturer, distribution, or possession of any device designed for, intended to, or advertise for the purpose of allowing a weapon to fire beyond its normal rate of rate of fire or to change the firing mode of the weapon is hereby banned" would have been better.
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's obvious: if you need to take down an entire herd of animals, a crowd of concert goers, or an invading caravan of migrants, a bump stock is a must.
Hyperbole like this should be out of place on a skeptics forum.
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:18 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Good move on the part of the Trump Administration
What do you think is good about it? Just that a gun part was banned or that Trump was able to get a rule written to restrict a right without getting Congress involved?

What other rights do you want to see restricted in this manner? It wasn't like any American had a say in this other than expressing their views during a comment period. Congress was bypassed now it is up to the courts to decide if this kind of rule making on a civil right can be tolerated.

Today it is a gun part, tomorrow it might be speech when Trump is fed up with how people criticize him. This is one more reason why people on both sides should not agree with Trump.
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:22 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How bump stocks are illegal while binary triggers are still A-OK is a mystery to me. In addition to being dumb, those things are absurdly dangerous and are much more clearly a NFA violation in my mind.
We're seeing something similar in the UK, where people who bought MARS/lever release rifles specifically designed to skirt around the centre-fire semi-auto ban are feigning incredulity now the government has decided to ban them.
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:29 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But both, I presume, would be harder to sneak up to a 32nd floor hotel room.

Sneak? Why would he have needed to sneak? Surely nobody would have infringed upon his second amendment rights had he had the M60 over one shoulder and rolls of ammo draped across the other?
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:30 AM   #96
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We're asking the wrong question. Maybe in his head he thought the crowd of concert goers were clay pigeons. Therefore because of MENS REA he's innocent.
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Old 20th December 2018, 08:02 AM   #97
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Every once in a while, do something opposite what you normally do. Confuses the heck out of the enemies.
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Old 20th December 2018, 08:06 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No extra equipment at all - bump firing.

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I AGREE
That was pointed out earlier.
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Old 20th December 2018, 08:14 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What do you think is good about it? Just that a gun part was banned or that Trump was able to get a rule written to restrict a right without getting Congress involved?

What other rights do you want to see restricted in this manner? It wasn't like any American had a say in this other than expressing their views during a comment period. Congress was bypassed now it is up to the courts to decide if this kind of rule making on a civil right can be tolerated.

Today it is a gun part, tomorrow it might be speech when Trump is fed up with how people criticize him. This is one more reason why people on both sides should not agree with Trump.
I don't see this as quite the rights grab that you suggest. While this is going to be a matter for the courts, I wouldn't say that the ATF ruling these as NFA items as being totally unreasonable. It's a device meant to simulate automatic fire while escaping NFA classification, it was bound to come under intense scrutiny and challenge by the ATF. I don't think this is a case of blatant bad faith and obvious legal overreach.

A court may rule this a reach too far by the ATF, but I think such an action could be considered within the legal grey area of their authority to interpret the NFA.
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Old 20th December 2018, 08:25 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Sneak? Why would he have needed to sneak? Surely nobody would have infringed upon his second amendment rights had he had the M60 over one shoulder and rolls of ammo draped across the other?
Like this

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Old 20th December 2018, 08:41 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
We're seeing something similar in the UK, where people who bought MARS/lever release rifles specifically designed to skirt around the centre-fire semi-auto ban are feigning incredulity now the government has decided to ban them.
Regulations that revolve around specific mechanical features pretty much guarantee that barely legal workarounds will be invented, assuming there is a market. It is a bit interesting to see what people will cook up in an attempt walk the razor's edge of legal compliance.

I watch a youtube Series called "Forgotten Weapons" where the host discusses various historical firearm designs. All kinds of bizarre, suboptimal designs have been invented over the years in order to comply with some regulation or another. During the '94 Assault Weapons Ban, all sorts of weird stuff was cooked up.
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Old 20th December 2018, 10:39 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
During the '94 Assault Weapons Ban, all sorts of weird stuff was cooked up.
As far as I know the only things that had to be cooked up were pinning on flash hiders or eliminating them all together and machining off bayonet lugs to keep the likes of ar-15's and M-1a's legal. Magazines had strips of sheet metal attached to the inside to keep them 10 rounds and under.

There's probably other stuff, but it had no impact on me at the time.
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Old 20th December 2018, 10:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
We're seeing something similar in the UK, where people who bought MARS/lever release rifles specifically designed to skirt around the centre-fire semi-auto ban are feigning incredulity now the government has decided to ban them.
I can't get links to the new UK law to load while on my work computer. Why are the lever release rifles being banned? Are they an actual problem?
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Old 20th December 2018, 11:02 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think you're vastly overestimating the number of people who make such a fetish of bump stocks.

Also you seem to have some fantasy of a progressive option that would appeal to people who were unhappy with (some of) Trump's shenanigans.
Meh. Along with his other mental issues, I think he has ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). Tell him not to do something and he'll do it anyway.

This brings a smile to my face because when he floated this idea a few months ago I knew in my heart of hearts that he was going to do it. Told ya.

Chapeau Trump!!

Enjoy your easy panacea! This will do nothing!
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:37 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
As far as I know the only things that had to be cooked up were pinning on flash hiders or eliminating them all together and machining off bayonet lugs to keep the likes of ar-15's and M-1a's legal. Magazines had strips of sheet metal attached to the inside to keep them 10 rounds and under.

There's probably other stuff, but it had no impact on me at the time.
Bunches of AK platform rifles made in China were re-done prior to importation to conform - pistol grip replaced with thumb-hole stocks, even on Norinco underfolders (leaving the under-folding stock in the folded position...) and machine turning off the threads on the muzzle for the compensator or flashider (threads being evil)

Lot's of Chinese AK's also went through model name changes to be legal for California - MAK 90's were restamped MAK 91's or NHM 91's. You can find Chinese AK's in that configuration where the original MAK-90 stamp is slightly visible under the re-blued finish.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:42 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think you're vastly overestimating the number of people who make such a fetish of bump stocks.
I'm a pretty big "gun guy" and I never heard of the damn things (and I was aware of other legal, quasi-legal, and technically illegal but still largely available ways to modify the firing rate of a rifle) until the Las Vegas shooting.

While I'm not saying the ban is a bad thing per se, it's mistaking an ends for a means, or a symptom for a disease, or whatever metaphor works.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:42 PM   #107
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The problem isn't so much technical specifications in the law; I think you'd have to have a specific description; as it is that those technical specs are written by legislators that don't understand the technical details.

The assault weapons ban is a perfect example: it focused on a flurry of features that were primarily cosmetic or secondary, having nothing to do with primary function, not to mention that from the get-go they focused on the types of weapons used for a very, very small fraction of gun deaths. It was "feel good" legislation, not anything useful or relevant. Like the bump stock ban.
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:49 PM   #108
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Agreed. The Assault Weapons ban was just a wordy way of banning guns the "Looked scawey"

Or as a meme put it, a picture of an AR-15 with the caption "It's because I'm black isn't it?" (The joke being for our non-gun folks that one could buy a gun with near or 100% identical performance to AR-15 but just looked more like a hunting rifle and less like a military rifle.)
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:56 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Agreed. The Assault Weapons ban was just a wordy way of banning guns the "Looked scawey"

Or as a meme put it, a picture of an AR-15 with the caption "It's because I'm black isn't it?" (The joke being for our non-gun folks that one could buy a gun with near or 100% identical performance to AR-15 but just looked more like a hunting rifle and less like a military rifle.)
I think the same lack of experience comes into it as well. The 5.56 round is NOT an exceptionally powerful rifle round, yet the perception among those who don't have much experience seems to regard it as some sort of super round. Movies and TV play into that perception, as well. And it's generally regarded that way for most of the military calibers...and again lack of experience assumes military-caliber rounds need military-looking guns.

The 5.56 NATO is basically a hot-loaded .223 Remington. The 7.62 NATO, on the other hand, is actually a less powerful .308 round, roughly on par ballistically with the .30-06 (a very popular deer hunting round for semi-auto rifles).
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:59 PM   #110
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I'm still old enough to remember when the M-16 and 5.56 were jokes, a plastic toy gun that shoots a souped up varmint round in the eyes of most gun fanatics.

It's been kind weird watching it become "the" symbol of the gun debate.
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Old 20th December 2018, 01:03 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm still old enough to remember when the M-16 and 5.56 were jokes, a plastic toy gun that shoots a souped up varmint round in the eyes of most gun fanatics.

It's been kind weird watching it become "the" symbol of the gun debate.
I've always seen it as something like a feedback loop. It starts on one side with a push to ban them for whatever reason, which drives those opposed to that to obtain them as a "protest" action. The controversy feeds the public perception of them as "scary", "dangerous", etc, so they end up becoming the choice for people looking to pull off mass shootings. That feeds back into the starting point, rinse, repeat.
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Old 20th December 2018, 01:17 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Hyperbole like this should be out of place on a skeptics forum.
It's sarcasm.
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Old 20th December 2018, 01:27 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's obvious: if you need to take down an entire herd of animals, a crowd of concert goers, or an invading caravan of migrants, a bump stock is a must.
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Hyperbole like this should be out of place on a skeptics forum.
Did you miss the part in bold, which actually happened?
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Old 20th December 2018, 01:42 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Did you miss the part in bold, which actually happened?
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Old 20th December 2018, 03:14 PM   #115
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's sarcasm.
I'm not convinced.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Did you miss the part in bold, which actually happened?
I did not miss that. I also did not miss the part that claimed a bump stock is a must. Anything that can be achieved with a bump stock can be achieved without it.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Does your thumbs up mean you're backing away from your sarcasm claim?

Last edited by Ranb; 20th December 2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 20th December 2018, 03:25 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Right, so the user is not pulling the trigger once for each shot. They are simply holding it correctly so that the gun fires itself. Calling it semi automatic is dishonest.
Not at all.

No matter how the particular firearm is held, the sear/disconnector/trigger is being "tripped" one time for each round fired.
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Old 20th December 2018, 03:27 PM   #117
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm not convinced.
I really don't care.


Quote:
I did not miss that. I also did not miss the part that claimed a bump stock is a must. Anything that can be achieved with a bump stock can be achieved without it.
Again, sarcasm. The same thing can be accomplished with an AR 15.


Quote:
Does your thumbs up mean you're backing away from your sarcasm claim?
Not at all.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th December 2018 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 20th December 2018, 03:36 PM   #118
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On this forum people will make up the craziest "facts" I've ever read about guns or gun control and expect people to be stupid enough to believe them. It really is that bad. Some of these people are the same ones who don't buy the "Obama is an alien" or "Bush allowed 9/11 to happen on purpose" crap, but when it comes to guns they go completely nuts.

So when I read a claim that is as stupid as the one made in post #53, I fail on the safe side and assume it was not intended as sarcasm.

Last edited by Ranb; 20th December 2018 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 20th December 2018, 03:42 PM   #119
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
On this forum people will make up the craziest "facts" I've ever read about guns or gun control and expect people to be stupid enough to believe them. It really is that bad. Some of these people are the same ones who don't buy the "Obama is an alien" or "Bush allowed 9/11 to happen on purpose" crap, but when it comes to guns they go completely nuts.

So when I read a claim that is as stupid as the one made in post #53, I fail on the safe side and assume it was not intended as sarcasm.
I think falling on the safe side would require assuming it was sarcasm. I thought it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic. But I made the same mistake as you in another thread with a post that was intended as sarcasm and I mistook it for being serious for much the same reason as you: too many people would actually be serious stating the same thing.
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Old 20th December 2018, 03:45 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Since semi-auto is defined as one shot for each pull of the trigger, it is not dishonest to call bump fire semi-auto.

The gun is not firing itself. The shooter has to hold their finger on the trigger and the supporting arm has to push the rifle forward. Without these two coordinating actions bump fire is not possible with or without the bump stock.
To me, it seems like a distinction without an effective difference, which makes it possible for an inexperienced user to have something with the effect of automatic fire, as opposed to needing skill to bump-fire a normal self-loading firearm.
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