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Old 17th January 2019, 02:25 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't believe those of us calling baron's claims less than credible were saying women never grope. It was the volume that was unlikely and claiming he was groped hundreds of times while never seeing a woman groped by any men.
Thousands, not hundreds, keep up.

And I genuinely can't recall seeing a man grope a woman, which doesn't mean it never happened in my presence. I've seen women slap men but I don't remember what prompted it. I had a mate who was renowned for 'making the first move' by simply walking onto the dance-floor and literally grabbing the woman that took his fancy. We joked about how it apparently worked. However, I never saw him do it.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:30 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
It's given you both pause I see and that being the case, the assertion has done it's work. It's something that is bandied about constantly with regard to men, so what's good for the goose.....

My kilt story is not the only sordid tales of assault I could give you. I could tell you about two female staff members from separate employments who harassed me for sex, one even going to the extent of setting up a poorly executed smear campaign on my then wife in the hope that I would leave her and become available. I could tell you, like Baron and tyr_13, about the myriad gropes, squeezes and wholly inappropriate comments and suggestions I've encountered, even as a young underage boy. If I sat and thought about it I could certainly fill a few pages of A4.

Already we have one female poster seeming to attempt to ever so slightly marginalise the problem to a subset of women. I hope I'm reading that wrong.
I feel like I should probably have some sympathy for your experiences. Yet I don't.
I don't mean that sarcastically, I just can't internalize women groping as "assault" unless under rare circumstance of disability or being vastly outnumbered.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:34 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I feel like I should probably have some sympathy for your experiences. Yet I don't.
I don't mean that sarcastically, I just can't internalize women groping as "assault" unless under rare circumstance of disability or being vastly outnumbered.
So a smallish woman can freely sexual assault any larger male?
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:39 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
So a smallish woman can freely sexual assault any larger male?
If you insist on describing a grope on the ass or similar, when the man is not constrained by infirmary or somehow economically dependent upon the woman as "assault", Yes. A largish woman would likely get a pass as well.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:40 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So I should never take a chance because she maybe might feel uncomfortable? How do people function in the real world these days?
Somehow we get by.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:44 PM   #366
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I feel like I should probably have some sympathy for your experiences. Yet I don't.
I don't mean that sarcastically, I just can't internalize women groping as "assault" unless under rare circumstance of disability or being vastly outnumbered.
Really? This seems odd. Can you explain a bit more? I'm wondering what you think a man should do in this circumstance that would be different to a woman that would mean it isn't really the same
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:44 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If you insist on describing a grope on the ass or similar, when the man is not constrained by infirmary or somehow economically dependent upon the woman as "assault", Yes. A largish woman would likely get a pass as well.
Ahh..Ok so groping is not assault if there is a negative size difference in the groper vs the target.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:48 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Really? This seems odd. Can you explain a bit more? I'm wondering what you think a man should do in this circumstance that would be different to a woman that would mean it isn't really the same
React however you wish.
For me it was to accept the compliment, smile, try to say something clever, and in a couple instances make the effort to discover how much of an invitation it was.

You could certainly reply with a "please don't touch me" if that is your preference.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:51 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Ahh..Ok so groping is not assault if there is a negative size difference in the groper vs the target.
No. If you re-read my post you will see that is not the case.
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:08 PM   #370
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As far as people saying "what difference does it make?"

Santa was basically created by Coca-cola, for an ad.

These can be powerful...
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:13 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
As far as people saying "what difference does it make?"

Santa was basically created by Coca-cola, for an ad.

These can be powerful...
Yeah, not so much.
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:23 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
If I'm understanding you, it sounds like both body building culture and cosplay culture are really bad about women sexually assaulting men.
Well, yes and no. They can be triggers but my worst experiences were definitely at neither of those events. They were at work and at a pool.

My overarching point is that it certainly isn't rare, and such actions are split much more evenly among the genders than most people would realize (or want to admit).

Look at it this way: Picture a fifty something man rubbing a twenty something woman cellphone expert's arm, and holding her hair, and giggling at her. All of this at her work while she's trying to help him and obviously feels she cannot leave. That is extraordinarily blatant and would get the guy tossed out. But that happened regularly* to me at work, and hardly anyone would bat an eye. Thankfully my (all women) coworkers could see it made me uncomfortable and if they were there would try to engage the customer.

A lot of that kind of thing happens in plain sight and people just discount it.

*EDIT: From middle aged or older women, it only happened twice from dudes.

Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
It’s likely a sense of entitlement. ‘This person is in costume for me! Why shouldn’t I enjoy it?’

I’ve been groped a few times while in costume. I try to discourage it, but that can be difficult while posing for photos. I do appreciate the ones who ask if they can hug me (I usually say no. It’s an expensive costume). But there are those who don’t ask.

Many conventions now have signage that states ‘cosplay is not consent’. It seems to help.

At least locally, those signs and the conversation around them helped a lot. A bunch of ladies in the community were rightfully upset about how people treated them, and asserted the guys couldn't understand what that's like at all. A lot of us spoke up and pointed out that yes, yes we could. Some of the guys used that to dismiss the problem all the way around. 'We don't make a big deal about it, so you shouldn't either.' Well that didn't go down well with many of us other guys, and pointed out that no, it wasn't ok to happen to us either.

It all but eliminated the grabbing I had to put up with (every once in a while you'll get teen girl first time con goers who haven't gotten up to speed yet), but I've also gotten older. It has helped the ladies too, but sadly not as much as it should.

Anecdotally it appears that the ladies are much more open to changing their behavior (with some vocal holdouts) than the fellas are.
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:38 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
React however you wish.
For me it was to accept the compliment, smile, try to say something clever, and in a couple instances make the effort to discover how much of an invitation it was.

You could certainly reply with a "please don't touch me" if that is your preference.
I'm not following.

You seemed to be saying it wasn't assault because of the ability of a man to resist an assault. But now you are saying it wasn't an assault because it wouldn't be unwelcome?

Or are you saying that groping is not assault regardless of sex/gender
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:42 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I feel like I should probably have some sympathy for your experiences. Yet I don't.
I don't mean that sarcastically, I just can't internalize women groping as "assault" unless under rare circumstance of disability or being vastly outnumbered.
It looks like you have very little self respect in some regards, especially when you admit to the desperation of making "the effort to discover how much of an invitation it was".

To see unwanted sexual advances as a compliment makes me feel sad for you.

I should be surprised at responses such as this but having read similar responses in other thread I grow weary.
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:47 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm not following.

You seemed to be saying it wasn't assault because of the ability of a man to resist an assault. But now you are saying it wasn't an assault because it wouldn't be unwelcome?

Or are you saying that groping is not assault regardless of sex/gender
I am saying it is not an assault because someone grabbing my ass in a manner that is not hurtful is not assaulting me.
I am a man, I also understand that for a woman it is likely a different experience for a myriad of reasons.
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Old 17th January 2019, 03:57 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
It looks like you have very little self respect in some regards, especially when you admit to the desperation of making "the effort to discover how much of an invitation it was".

To see unwanted sexual advances as a compliment makes me feel sad for you.

I should be surprised at responses such as this but having read similar responses in other thread I grow weary.
Not all sexual advances are unwanted. As a younger man the proportion that were unwanted was much smaller.

Do you wear some kind of special uniform on the days when a sexual advance is acceptable?
Maybe a sign that says "now reacting positively to sexual advances"?

Like many, I suspect, I spent a considerable portion of my free time seeking new sex partners as a youth. It was exhausting. Sexual advances from women made things considerably easier.
I don't know in which decades you spent your youth, but from the mid seventies to the late eighties, a woman who openly expressed sexual desire- and even boldness- was considered to be forward-thinking, liberated, and even brave. For some of us that was quite a turn-on.
I feel sorrier for you that you see it as an "assault"
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Old 17th January 2019, 04:05 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not all sexual advances are unwanted. As a younger man the proportion that were unwanted was much smaller.

Do you wear some kind of special uniform on the days when a sexual advance is acceptable?
Maybe a sign that says "now reacting positively to sexual advances"?

Like many, I suspect, I spent a considerable portion of my free time seeking new sex partners as a youth. It was exhausting. Sexual advances from women made things considerably easier.
I don't know in which decades you spent your youth, but from the mid seventies to the late eighties, a woman who openly expressed sexual desire- and even boldness- was considered to be forward-thinking, liberated, and even brave. For some of us that was quite a turn-on.
I feel sorrier for you that you see it as an "assault"
You have an interesting view of what constitutes a sexual "advance". I trust you don't apply that same view when you approach a woman. Truth be told, I know you don't and you can't see the inconsistency.

FYI I could have been described as promiscuous (around exactly the same time as you) but never felt the need to expose myself to being pawed in the hope of getting sex. Where is the respect in that?
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Old 17th January 2019, 04:05 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I am saying it is not an assault because someone grabbing my ass in a manner that is not hurtful is not assaulting me.
I am a man, I also understand that for a woman it is likely a different experience for a myriad of reasons.
Could you elaborate on the myriad of reasons. This is what I was asking initially.
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Old 17th January 2019, 04:14 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You have an interesting view of what constitutes a sexual "advance". I trust you don't apply that same view when you approach a woman. Truth be told, I know you don't and you can't see the inconsistency.

FYI I could have been described as promiscuous (around exactly the same time as you) but never felt the need to expose myself to being pawed in the hope of getting sex. Where is the respect in that?
It was you who characterized it as an "advance"- read your own post to which I responded.

Occasions when it happened to me I most often attempted to determine if it was in fact an advance, your response to that was to claim it indicated a lack of self-respect. Okay, Dr. Freud, whatever.
I would see a man who reacted to such a thing without good grace, one who even saw it as "exposing himself to being pawed in the hopes of getting sex" and reacted that way as an insufferable prude.
Although the term did not exist in 1985, I would today consider that "humblebragging".
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Old 17th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Could you elaborate on the myriad of reasons. This is what I was asking initially.
Start off with acknowledgment that the act, when done to a woman, is far outside the norms of social acceptability. Such that anyone who does it is automatically a bit of a weirdo. One would need to be fairly far along into "undesirable" territory to do it at all.

Since most men seem to understand this, and women are aware that men are aware,a woman can be fairly certain the the grope is not a gregarious compliment given as a friendly invitation, and is instead either an aggressive act, or the act of someone so unaware of how to behave that he doesn't know this already-in other words, a creep.
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Old 17th January 2019, 04:49 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
By and large I don't disagree but can you see the double standard at play?
I can. I don't know what to say beyond what I already posted. It's actually a pretty hard topic to draw conclusions on, I think.
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:02 PM   #382
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Based on the thread title, I was curious why this had exploded into 10 pages..

I rightly suspected it was no longer about Gillette..
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:14 PM   #383
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Another thing from the ad:

Are we men seriously expected to physically police each other? I can see holding back a friend of mine who’s being creepy/stalkery. But I can guarantee you I’m not going to put my hands on another guy I don’t know, push him away from the helpless females and tell him, “oh, no no no,” like they depict in the ad.

Totally unrealistic expectation.


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Old 17th January 2019, 05:18 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Another thing from the ad:

Are we men seriously expected to physically police each other? I can see holding back a friend of mine who’s being creepy/stalkery. But I can guarantee you I’m not going to put my hands on another guy I don’t know, push him away from the helpless females and tell him, “oh, no no no,” like they depict in the ad.

Totally unrealistic expectation.
I would address him verbally first, say "hey man, that's not cool" or something like that. But if I needed to physically interpose myself between him and the woman he is accosting, I would.
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:21 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would address him verbally first, say "hey man, that's not cool" or something like that. But if I needed to physically interpose myself between him and the woman he is accosting, I would.
Exactly.

We all have a responsibility to call out bad behavior. The "it's not my job" excuse is complicit

That's exactly what the add is saying.
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:40 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
It’s likely a sense of entitlement. ‘This person is in costume for me! Why shouldn’t I enjoy it?’

I’ve been groped a few times while in costume. I try to discourage it, but that can be difficult while posing for photos. I do appreciate the ones who ask if they can hug me (I usually say no. It’s an expensive costume). But there are those who don’t ask.

Many conventions now have signage that states ‘cosplay is not consent’. It seems to help.
Really good to hear that signs are being put up about it.

Hopefully that aspect of the culture will change over time, and sooner rather than later.
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:42 PM   #387
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Oh crap, it looks like L'Oreal has gotten in on the woke action too.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=MAlI-RXLk1E
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:48 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Start off with acknowledgment that the act, when done to a woman, is far outside the norms of social acceptability. Such that anyone who does it is automatically a bit of a weirdo. One would need to be fairly far along into "undesirable" territory to do it at all.

Since most men seem to understand this, and women are aware that men are aware,a woman can be fairly certain the the grope is not a gregarious compliment given as a friendly invitation, and is instead either an aggressive act, or the act of someone so unaware of how to behave that he doesn't know this already-in other words, a creep.

Gregarious compliment? I don't need my junk grabbed by a stranger to feel good about myself.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Exactly.

We all have a responsibility to call out bad behavior. The "it's not my job" excuse is complicit

That's exactly what the add is saying.
Bullcrap. Where do you draw the line? How the hell are you to know if the woman likes that kind of attention?

Why doesn't everyone start minding their ow business in this country. If someone is being hurt or is obviously in trouble, sure go to the rescue.

But if I see a guy grab a girls ass in a bar I'm not saying anything, especially if it ends with the grab.

"Yes, I am Sensitive Man! Defender of those who don't realize they need defending!"

It's pretty bad when people look to razor commercials for moral guidance, especially from a company that sells pretty pink and curvy women's razors at a higher price than mens.

Turn off your TVs.
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Old 17th January 2019, 05:50 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Exactly.



We all have a responsibility to call out bad behavior. The "it's not my job" excuse is complicit



That's exactly what the add is saying.
I ain’t buyin’ what the ad is sellin’.

1. I don’t believe the solution is to put yourself at physical risk.

2. I refuse to believe that South Park’s PC Principal should be my role model.
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Old 17th January 2019, 07:17 PM   #390
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Livestream of a bot that shows deleted comments from the youtube video for the ad. you can click backwards to see earlier parts of the stream for different comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKg0RNTSClc

Interesting. Lots of random stuff, of course. I'm not convinced this is all deliberate deleting. The Youtube comment section has been totally busted for years, so who knows, really.
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Old 17th January 2019, 07:42 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Livestream of a bot that shows deleted comments from the youtube video for the ad. you can click backwards to see earlier parts of the stream for different comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKg0RNTSClc

Interesting. Lots of random stuff, of course. I'm not convinced this is all deliberate deleting. The Youtube comment section has been totally busted for years, so who knows, really.
This is a lovely sentiment:
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Old 17th January 2019, 07:44 PM   #392
pharphis
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yikes
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Old 17th January 2019, 07:55 PM   #393
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This is a lovely sentiment:
I am going to choose to believe that is the hyperbole of a troll.
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Old 17th January 2019, 08:58 PM   #394
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Based on the thread title, I was curious why this had exploded into 10 pages..

I rightly suspected it was no longer about Gillette..
Good point.

Back to Gillette.

Any of you weaklings going boycott? Whatsa' matter? Don't want to go against "the Hegemony" or don't want to risk your whole entire face breaking out into a rash when you try out all the "also-rans"?

https://tinyurl.com/y9h3o7du
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Old 17th January 2019, 09:07 PM   #395
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Good point.

Back to Gillette.

Any of you weaklings going boycott? Whatsa' matter? Don't want to go against "the Hegemony" or don't want to risk your whole entire face breaking out into a rash when you try out all the "also-rans"?

https://tinyurl.com/y9h3o7du
That's amazing!
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Old 17th January 2019, 09:24 PM   #396
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Why doesn't everyone start minding their ow business in this country.
You're contradicting your own advice, chief.
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Old 17th January 2019, 09:57 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This is a lovely sentiment:
Charming.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:06 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Exactly.

We all have a responsibility to call out bad behavior. The "it's not my job" excuse is complicit

That's exactly what the add is saying.
Depending on the situation (such as with the cat-caller on the street or in a place where alcohol is involved) you of course are free to call it out, but you run the risk of the knuckle-dragger deciding that he now needs to kick your ass.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:14 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Good point.

Back to Gillette.

Any of you weaklings going boycott? Whatsa' matter? Don't want to go against "the Hegemony" or don't want to risk your whole entire face breaking out into a rash when you try out all the "also-rans"?

https://tinyurl.com/y9h3o7du

Been using a Merkur 34-C and Astra titanium DE blades for a couple of years now. Pennies a shave and with a little more care than when using those multi-bladers I can get far better results. So sure I thought the idea of a shaving company trying to look all socially conscious to hide their standard corporate avarice was a bit cynical, but I'm more offended that they're raking in so much money from people of both sexes with an inferior, gimmicky product.

Then again I've never broken up a fight at a BBQ, so my opinion on their blades might not count.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:15 PM   #400
Silly Green Monkey
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Depending on the situation (such as with the cat-caller on the street or in a place where alcohol is involved) you of course are free to call it out, but you run the risk of the knuckle-dragger deciding that he now needs to kick your ass.
The fear you are describing, that you want the man to feel, is how the women have always felt. "Do I say something and get my face beat in?" is what stops women from calling it out themselves---and it's far more likely for the woman to be beat, than the larger man the catcaller may think twice about, no?
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