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Old 1st February 2019, 12:52 PM   #881
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry about that. Let's focus on what we can agree or understand each other on.
I'm trying, but by all appearances you're being willfully obtuse. You even call my being explicit 'sniping'.


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Well we could nay-say each other until the cows come home but how about some widepsread examples? It would go a long way.
This was already done. You've rejected it for non-factual reasons. See below.


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Why are you broadening it to irrational? Let's stick to harmful.
Because the discussion has indeed included things that were irrational, but arguably not actively harmful. If you want to stick to harmful, ok, but that doesn't change the previous discussion.


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Devaluating one or the other what? The product? I don't follow.
'Women's things', or in some cases 'men's things'.


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Oh, don't get me started on in-groups and whatnot. I think that wanting to belong to "something bigger than oneself" is both essential and insufferably harmful more often than not. I tend to hate it but there's no question that it's been a major driver of human history, for good or ill.
This is actually a bigger insight that you seem to realize. You acknowledge that this facet is 'insufferably harmful more often than not', but you argue against building the 'masculine' in-group (and whatnot) even having toxic elements. Why?


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I see "harm" as something that ends up hurting someone either physically or mentally or financially or something. Like, I could see how being derided for liking products marketed for women could result in harm under certain circumstances, but not selling the product for men? That's not harm.
What are you talking about when you say 'not selling the product for men'? You do realize that the people who want to sell the product to men and the men are harmed through being deprived of the thing the people want to sell and the men actually want to buy? That is harm both financially and mentally.

And again, the product in my example was not marketed for women. A competing product was in order to make it seem like the original was. The example was not marketed by gender.


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That is your opinion. I'm sure someone could pop in and actually mention up sides to this sort of "segregation" of gendered products. Now, in this case I think it's pretty silly, but I'm talking in the general case.
Not buying a product you actually want just to seem more manly has no upside. It only avoids the punishment of others. That someone could think they are right doesn't actually show me to be wrong. A hypothetical challenge doesn't change a thing.



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Do you think you could argue your points without the snipes? I don't think they're very useful.
I was being explicit to call out statements of fact you had wrong. That is not a snipe. I'm trying to be as obvious as I can.


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Sorry, you can't just decree that something is X and expect me to agree just because you've repeated it more often than me disagreeing with you. The reasons you gave above don't quite seem that harmful to me.
I don't expect you to agree. To be honest I don't expect you to change your view on this topic even a little. That they don't seem harmful to you also doesn't change anything. They are harmful. I've cited how. You can't just decree that something isn't x and expect me to agree just because you've repeated it more often than me disagreeing with you (or however else you want to phrase it).

Men not wanting a product just because it wasn't 'made for' them is stupid, and wronghead, and toxic if they otherwise like that product, and for exactly the same reasons I cited above. It deprives them of the joy it brings them without reason, makes them question themselves needlessly, puts pressure on them to suppress something trivially non-harmful, etc.

Now I am not saying that any given individual man would be stupid, wrongheaded, or toxic for avoiding them because of the punishments from society he risks, but those standards of masculinity that create the punishment are indeed stupid, wrongheaded, and toxic. That is, toxic masculinity.


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That's a distinction without a difference. You could be wearing women's underwear right now and as long as they work for you, I don't care. Whether or not they are "for women" is entirely dependent on market and subjective interpretation.
No. First of all you argued the distinction of being 'for women' was meaningfully important and different than toxic masculinity. Second, your example is made for women (on the population level) by designing around their anatomy. The marketing follows from the design (how/why it is made). Thirdly, yes, not wearing them because they're 'for women' would still be wrongheaded as I have not argued that being made for either gender is important, you did.

And importantly again, the drinks are not gendered. There is no valid design reason that product would be. It also was not marketed that way. Another company just made it seem like that. It was not marketed to women. That the very implication that it might be was enough to hurt it. I do not understand what you are not getting about that. There was actual, financial harm done to Pepsi just by Coke marketing a different but similar product to women. Coke knew the expectations and requirements of masculinity put on men would prevent men from buying something that even might be associated with women's products. (And before this straw man comes up, no, it was definitely not the only factor that killed Crystal Pepsi.)

If that isn't harm caused by toxic masculinity, at least check out the links tying those expectations to violence. You at least agree violence is harm right?
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:12 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I'm trying, but by all appearances you're being willfully obtuse.
More sniping. I've made some effort to understand what you're saying, and you continue to attack me. Why? I've not done that to you.

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This was already done. You've rejected it for non-factual reasons.
The examples you gave were of toxic behaviours. Am I to understand that they were examples of stupid as well? How do you define "stupid" then?

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'Women's things', or in some cases 'men's things'.
Ok gotcha. And how is that harmful?

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This is actually a bigger insight that you seem to realize. You acknowledge that this facet is 'insufferably harmful more often than not', but you argue against building the 'masculine' in-group (and whatnot) even having toxic elements. Why?
Because I'm talking about a general human behaviour; not one that's unique to any one group. And I've also conceded that it might be far more useful than I give it credit for.

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What are you talking about when you say 'not selling the product for men'? You do realize that the people who want to sell the product to men and the men are harmed through being deprived of the thing the people want to sell and the men actually want to buy? That is harm both financially and mentally.
If we're talking about "harm" by using a very broad definition, sure. But very broad definitions are rarely useful. When someone talks about "harm", I don't generally include me not being able to buy a particular product, especially when other similar products are available. I view that as an inconvenience. As for not being able to sell a product to a particular subset of the market, same comment. I guess we have different thresholds for what constitutes "harm" that may prevent us from reaching an agreement.

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And again, the product in my example was not marketed for women. A competing product was in order to make it seem like the original was.
I understand that, Tyr.

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Not buying a product you actually want just to seem more manly has no upside. It only avoids the punishment of others.
Isn't that an upside? Ok, that's using a very broad definition of "upside" and I just said those aren't very useful! My point was that you not seeing an upside doesn't mean there isn't one; nor is a lack of upside necessarily "harm".

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To be honest I don't expect you to change your view on this topic even a little.
You should give me more credit. This forum has shifted quite a few opinions of mine over the years. That I might not agree with you before the sun sets today doesn't mean the conversation can't be useful; and it goes the other way as well. Do you expect yourself to change your views on this topic, even a little? If not, why should I be?

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That they don't seem harmful to you also doesn't change anything. They are harmful. I've cited how.
You've listed things you think are harmful. That doesn't make them harmful. That's what I meant by decree.

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Men not wanting a product just because it wasn't 'made for' them is stupid, and wronghead, and toxic if they otherwise like that product, and for exactly the same reasons I cited above.
Wait a second. You've explained why you think it's harmful, but harmful and stupid and wrongheaded are not the same thing.

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It deprives them of the joy it brings them without reason
In the case of the Coke-vs-Pepsi nonsense, there is a reason: Coke were trying to sink one of Pepsi's products. Or do you mean a reason you would personally agree with? I'm not trying to play games. I'm trying to highlight the fact that your POV on this issue is not necessarily rational or objective by the simple fact that you hold it.

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Now I am not saying that any given individual man would be stupid, wrongheaded, or toxic for avoiding them because of the punishments from society he risks, but those standards of masculinity that create the punishment are indeed stupid, wrongheaded, and toxic. That is, toxic masculinity.
Ok that does clarify things. Thanks for that.

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First of all you argued the distinction of being 'for women' was meaningfully important and different than toxic masculinity. Second, your example is made for women (on the population level) by designing around their anatomy. The marketing follows from the design (how/why it is made). Thirdly, yes, not wearing them because they're 'for women' would still be wrongheaded as I have not argued that being made for either gender is important, you did.
Wait, did I? Perhaps the communication broke down at some point, but I don't think I said that. The issue is that the product is either marketed at or perceived to be directed at women. That alone, even without any toxic behaviour, is enough to ensure that men will not buy as much of it as they would otherwise. I don't see what the problem is here. That doesn't even get into the issues you brought up: there are products that are seen as being for women. And?

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If that isn't harm caused by toxic masculinity, at least check out the links tying those expectations to violence. You at least agree violence is harm right?
Yes but... we're talking about products, here.

Damn, this thing is getting long, eh?
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:53 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Damn, this thing is getting long, eh?
No worries. We're all just scrolling past to see if anything substantive has been posted. Feel free to carry on. We'll manage just fine.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:28 AM   #884
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No worries. We're all just scrolling past to see if anything substantive has been posted. Feel free to carry on. We'll manage just fine.
Ouch!
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:52 AM   #885
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No worries. We're all just scrolling past to see if anything substantive has been posted. Feel free to carry on. We'll manage just fine.
Interesting. I would've thought discussing the very reasons behind some of the objections to this ad would be worth a read. What, exactly, would you find "substantive"?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 10:31 AM   #886
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Sort of like panning for gold at the beach..

Are a few, very small nuggets, worth the tons of sand you had to go through?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 03:06 PM   #887
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I bought a pink fishing reel last week. Is that on topic? I have no clue really.

My friend says I need to paint it. I was thinking about it at first, but by the time it arrived - hell no, it's an awesome reel, I'm not taking it apart to paint anything. Dumb!

I bought it because it was on sale at 2/3 off. The reel is called The Lady President (I'm not a lady), as opposed to the normal version that is simply called the President. It's a quality reel for that price range.

It was $21 instead of $60. It took me a few days to pull the trigger because of the color. Now I'm glad I did.

I started a thread on a big fishing forum. Most guys said they'd have no problem using a pink reel. A few wouldn't do it. Guys of all ages.

Many guys said they bought it for their wives, who liked the pink color. Did you miss that? The women liked the fact that women were represented in a male dominant sport. I'm not saying all women feel the same way, but many many do apparently. Something doesn't need to be pink either to be for women, but this is.

The reel could be deemed as sexist by some. Those people should not buy the reel. Perhaps they can buy reels from another manufacturer?

I'm gonna put pink fishing line on it just so I can see my friends face.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 05:31 PM   #888
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Has anyone mentioned they always buy the female version of razors..

Name brand or otherwise, they are usually cheaper, and I'm pretty sure the only difference is the color of the plastic..
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:11 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Has anyone mentioned they always buy the female version of razors..

Name brand or otherwise, they are usually cheaper, and I'm pretty sure the only difference is the color of the plastic..
The women's razors are cheaper, you say? Someone forgot to add the pink tax!
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:39 PM   #890
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The cheapest razors are usually gender neutral generics that are white and orange and rust really quickly, but that's fine because they wear out really quickly, too.

These are a close second, and in spite of the pink wrapper, they work well for men and women (and in families with 3 or 4 shavers who have to share a bathroom) because of the color coded system. https://www.amazon.com/BIC-Silky-Tou...razors%22++BIC
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:42 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The women's razors are cheaper, you say? Someone forgot to add the pink tax!
The worst of the pink tax used to be "women's deodorant". It really was absurd. They cost twice as much back in the day and didn't even work nearly as well. But now the female deodorants work just as well and are quite often cheaper, too.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 10:55 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Many guys said they bought it for their wives, who liked the pink color. Did you miss that? The women liked the fact that women were represented in a male dominant sport. I'm not saying all women feel the same way, but many many do apparently.

No, many many don't, apparently:

Quote:
I bought it because it was on sale at 2/3 off.

And apparently, even the women who got one didn't buy it for themselves, their husbands did ...
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:58 AM   #893
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The women's razors are cheaper, you say? Someone forgot to add the pink tax!
It wasn't really a "pink tax"

It was a "this majority of the population seriously put up with paying this much for this crap. Might as well take the **** tax"
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:43 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Has anyone mentioned they always buy the female version of razors..

Name brand or otherwise, they are usually cheaper, and I'm pretty sure the only difference is the color of the plastic..
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The women's razors are cheaper, you say? Someone forgot to add the pink tax!
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It wasn't really a "pink tax"

It was a "this majority of the population seriously put up with paying this much for this crap. Might as well take the **** tax"
Pretty much all of that, it curious as to why marketing to women was more successful than marketing to men. I suspect its a cultural thing, men are suppose to tough enough to deal with crappy products or something.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I bought a pink fishing reel last week. Is that on topic? I have no clue really.

My friend says I need to paint it. I was thinking about it at first, but by the time it arrived - hell no, it's an awesome reel, I'm not taking it apart to paint anything. Dumb!

I bought it because it was on sale at 2/3 off. The reel is called The Lady President (I'm not a lady), as opposed to the normal version that is simply called the President. It's a quality reel for that price range.

It was $21 instead of $60. It took me a few days to pull the trigger because of the color. Now I'm glad I did.

I started a thread on a big fishing forum. Most guys said they'd have no problem using a pink reel. A few wouldn't do it. Guys of all ages.
All of this is kind of funny and odd, given the previously mentioned "pink tax" as it often applies to things that are literally pink. I remember seeing a set of pink tools at a Sears in Seattle, I checked the price and they were 50% than the non-pink equivalent by the same manufacturer.
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Old 4th February 2019, 07:49 AM   #895
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The worst of the pink tax used to be "women's deodorant". It really was absurd. They cost twice as much back in the day and didn't even work nearly as well. But now the female deodorants work just as well and are quite often cheaper, too.
I was joking. There's no such thing as a pink tax.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:11 AM   #896
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was joking. There's no such thing as a pink tax.
I was waiting to see if anyone was going to mention this. It's going to get the resident SJWs in a lather I bet.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:04 AM   #897
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Damn, this thing is getting long, eh?

It is getting long, so I'm trying to trim it down.

No, at this point I doubt my view is going to change much here, because the arguments that have been made against my view are weak, essentially handwaves. It's possible, but not with your current track of essentially 'marketing can't be harm' (yes, that is an oversimplification but pretty accurate sadly).

Not buying a product because a different competing product is marketed towards women is indeed toxic masculinity. You say it is because it's advertising, but it's specifically leveraging the toxic idea that men are less masculine if they use a product that's only very tangentially related to one marketed at women, even with abjectly no reason to gender the product in the first place. If the reason you're not going to buy a product that you like and you want is because doing so might challenge your masculinity, then it is both a toxic behavior and part of 'masculinity'. I really can't make it more clear than that. It does not matter that someone else marketed something else to women. It just doesn't. You would have to show why that is important. You haven't.

And yes, that is very, obviously, stupid too. 'Women must like this other drink that the ads say they should like so if I drink this drink I like that is also clear, then I'm less of a man' is painfully stupid. But it is what happened. That tactic worked. It doesn't matter that it was a tactic used by a competing company and I frankly have no idea why you think that would make it less of a stupid reaction. That it is a 'human' reaction doesn't rule out it being toxic, stupid, or dependent on ideas of 'masculinity'.

Bottom line is you admitted that financial harm was a valid harm you would accept, and Coke harmed Pepsi by challenging Crystal Pepsi's masculinity. That the way they did so was so roundabout and yet STILL WORKED just shows how powerful the idea of 'masculinity' was at the time even in the frigging pop market. It really doesn't get much more clear than that unless you want examples of people doing violent things because someone called them a 'pussy'.

Which there are plenty of.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 4th February 2019 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:33 AM   #898
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If a woman doesn’t want to buy shampoo, deodorant or razors she perceives as being for men, does that make her a perpetrator of toxic femininity?

I wouldn’t say so. I would say it makes her a normal member of a sexually dimorphic species which has erected social systems which both reflect and amplify that biology.

Problem not detected.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:54 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It really doesn't get much more clear than that unless you want examples of people doing violent things because someone called them a 'pussy'.

We've got a long way to go when it is immediately obvious to everybody that this is the ultimate humiliation that men can experience:

Quote:
The fathers (Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders) make a bet that whoever loses has to wear their wife’s Sunday dress and they have to mow the other fathers lawn. Bart and Todd face each other at the tournament and the match is really close. The boys agree to forfeit together which means the prize is split and the fathers have to wear their wives Sunday dress and mow each other’s lawns. Ned ends up enjoying it.
Dead Putting Society (The Simpson Files, Jan. 8, 2016)

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Old 4th February 2019, 11:57 AM   #900
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It is getting long, so I'm trying to trim it down.

No, at this point I doubt my view is going to change much here, because the arguments that have been made against my view are weak, essentially handwaves. It's possible, but not with your current track of essentially 'marketing can't be harm' (yes, that is an oversimplification but pretty accurate sadly).
Actually it's both over-simplified and inaccurate, since it's nothing like what I said.

Quote:
Not buying a product because a different competing product is marketed towards women is indeed toxic masculinity. You say it is because it's advertising, but it's specifically leveraging the toxic idea that men are less masculine if they use a product that's only very tangentially related to one marketed at women, even with abjectly no reason to gender the product in the first place. If the reason you're not going to buy a product that you like and you want is because doing so might challenge your masculinity, then it is both a toxic behavior and part of 'masculinity'. I really can't make it more clear than that. It does not matter that someone else marketed something else to women. It just doesn't. You would have to show why that is important. You haven't.
Actually I've addressed that already! You are convinced that it's telling men that they wouldn't be manly enough if they used that product. I've already told you that I disagree with this and why; namely that it could simply be an acknowledgement that men and women don't necessarily like the same things and that some products are more designed for the needs and wants of one or the other.

Where's the toxicity in that?

Quote:
Bottom line is you admitted that financial harm was a valid harm you would accept, and Coke harmed Pepsi by challenging Crystal Pepsi's masculinity.
Did you mean "if you admitted" rather than "is"?

The problem with the argument is that any competition, in any market, results in losers and winners. If that's harm, then it's completely acceptable harm. If it's not acceptable harm, then I suggest that you do away with capitalism.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:10 PM   #901
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Actually it's both over-simplified and inaccurate, since it's nothing like what I said.



Actually I've addressed that already! You are convinced that it's telling men that they wouldn't be manly enough if they used that product. I've already told you that I disagree with this and why; namely that it could simply be an acknowledgement that men and women don't necessarily like the same things and that some products are more designed for the needs and wants of one or the other.

Where's the toxicity in that?

None of that is true in this case, which makes this a handwave like I already said. Men already liked the drink. Nothing about that changes because a different drink is marketed towards women. 'It could be' is meaningless because in this case it is not. With evidence that it is not.



Quote:
Did you mean "if you admitted" rather than "is"?

The problem with the argument is that any competition, in any market, results in losers and winners. If that's harm, then it's completely acceptable harm. If it's not acceptable harm, then I suggest that you do away with capitalism.
You said I was not being accurate but then you say this, which is the same argument as the one you said was inaccurate.

And it's a false slippery slope. We don't call every form of competition acceptable or even legal (even though that isn't the question here in the first place). We don't have to do away with capitalism in order to be critical of leveraging a silly social belief for marketing. None of that means that toxic masculinity isn't a thing or that this example didn't leverage it for their market competition.

You are being obtuse. No point in continuing when all you are doing is handwaving.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:19 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
None of that is true in this case, which makes this a handwave like I already said.
That's not what a handwave is. When someone gives you an actual argument, and you disagree with it, it doesn't magically mean that the argument was disingenuous. You don't get to be right by decree. I've told you this before.

Besides I have _also_ already addressed your point: the perception that a product is more geared towards women can be just as powerful as something more objective and evidence-based. It makes absolutely no difference to my point, which you're ignoring.

Quote:
And it's a false slippery slope. We don't call every form of competition acceptable or even legal (even though that isn't the question here in the first place). We don't have to do away with capitalism in order to be critical of leveraging a silly social belief for marketing. None of that means that toxic masculinity isn't a thing or that this example didn't leverage it for their market competition.
There's no slippery slope involved. I didn't say X would happen if you let Y occur.

The point is that mere financial loss is not "harm" in the sense we're discussing here, otherwise you'd have to see capitalism itself as an inherent source of harm, which is ridiculous.

Quote:
You are being obtuse. No point in continuing when all you are doing is handwaving.
There is NO handwaving going on. I'm giving you actual arguments why your claim of harm in this case is WRONG. You can't go two posts without making things personal. My conclusion is that you're doing that because your own case is very weak and entirely based on your personal perceptions, so you're looking for a way out by blaming me for the lack of agreement. Have fun with that.
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Old 4th February 2019, 02:06 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It really doesn't get much more clear than that unless you want examples of people doing violent things because someone called them a 'pussy'.

Which there are plenty of.
I can show you plenty of instances where women become violent when called "pussy," is that toxic femininity?
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Old 4th February 2019, 03:41 PM   #904
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That word and its euphemisms can be all over the place when it comes to reactions from any gender...
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Old 4th February 2019, 04:52 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The fear you are describing, that you want the man to feel, is how the women have always felt. "Do I say something and get my face beat in?" is what stops women from calling it out themselves---and it's far more likely for the woman to be beat, than the larger man the catcaller may think twice about, no?
Most of it happens behind closed doors, so it is much more likely her female friends are going to be the ones to know, rather than some random dude.

I am not saying blokes don't have a responsibility to speak up if they do know, but these stupid "Bleed'n obvious" messages that always seem to be aimed at blokes should be aimed at everyone, if we have to be bombarded with them.
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Old 8th February 2019, 09:08 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Has anyone mentioned they always buy the female version of razors..

Name brand or otherwise, they are usually cheaper, and I'm pretty sure the only difference is the color of the plastic..
I don't like them gooey strips of moisturizer that the lady razors have on them. I use manly razors, and I shave like Bill Duke in Predator.
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Old 8th February 2019, 08:30 PM   #907
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I can show you plenty of instances where women become violent when called "pussy," is that toxic femininity?
No that is an example the language of toxic masculinity.
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:06 PM   #908
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Yes, it definitely is!
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:26 PM   #909
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
No that is an example the language of toxic masculinity.
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it definitely is!
What if it's uttered by a female person?
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:55 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
No that is an example the language of toxic masculinity.
I don't understand.
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Old 9th February 2019, 02:22 AM   #911
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
What if it's uttered by a female person?

Yes, in that case, using the word derogatively would be toxic femininity.
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Old 9th February 2019, 08:12 AM   #912
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, in that case, using the word derogatively would be toxic femininity.
What about if a woman does the punching? What about if it is a woman who says it and another woman who punches her in the face, is that double toxic femininity?

I just love how people claim men and women are "mostly" identical but then weasel their way around the statement when it comes to violence. "The patriarchy made women do it!"

If gender issues were so simple they would have been figured out a long time ago but people still see them as black and white. Men are evil, and to blame, while women are good, and innocent.

But we are mostly the same!
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Old 11th February 2019, 05:15 PM   #913
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Gillette lost US market share for 7 straight years through 2018 (according to Euromonitor for the first 6. 2018 sales for the 7th).

Gillette lowered the price of its razors last year and still lost market share. Ten years ago they had 70% of the market. Now it is less than half.

We don't need to imagine a decade of quarterly earnings reports reading "market share down, market share down, market share down" nigh on 40 quarters running. That's exactly what has happened.

So in those board room meetings it has been an increasing desperation. You cannot lower prices below cost and hope to make it up on volume. The online component and specialty brands are killing them, year after year.

They needed a breakthrough. In technology, metallurgy, manufacturing economies, parallel innovations matching their competitors, or whatever.

This was their Hail Mary pass. And holy ****, did they throw the long bomb up high! Hahahaha! This has to be one of the biggest gambles in advertising history because it is the macho guys watching football and you just told them they should be a bunch of pansies.

That is so ******* hilarious, it's great to be alive in this time. My money is on an interception, and a touchdown run by the opposing teams of Dollar, Schtick, and whomever.

But I couldn't care less. It's going to be even funnier if it works!!
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:24 PM   #914
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's marvelous how qayak can ramble on without in any way addressing what's been said or even the quotation that he includes in his post and which you would therefore expect him to be talking address.
Who claimed that men and women are mostly identical? I certainly didn't. I sure as hell wouldn't even claim that qayak and I are mostly identical. Where did I claim that "the patriarchy made women do it!"??! Or that "men are evil, and to blame, while women are good, and innocent." Or that "we are mostly the same!"
Nowhere, actually, but why bother? As long as qayak can fight his own strawman and doesn't have to consider what anybody else is actually writing, the world is still in order.
If women and men arent mostly identical then how can people say they can do the same in the same jobs etc.

(Not saying they can't)

Are men and women the same or not?

Does it just come down to same with good traits, men are evil in bad traits?
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:09 PM   #915
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If women and men arent mostly identical then how can people say they can do the same in the same jobs etc.

(Not saying they can't)

Are men and women the same or not?

Does it just come down to same with good traits, men are evil in bad traits?

What are you talking about? Their behaviour? There private parts? Their DNA? If I understand the latter correctly, then human beings and chimps are mostly identical ...
Are two men the same? Are two women?

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I AGREE
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:18 PM   #916
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What are you talking about? Their behaviour? There private parts? Their DNA? If I understand the latter correctly, then human beings and chimps are mostly identical ...
Are two men the same? Are two women?

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I AGREE
I just get bored with the same people (mainly feminists) saying there is no difference between men and women, then spouting "male toxicity", "Mens issues are anti female" etc etc etc

Just think to myself.

You can't have both love. Make up your mind.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:11 AM   #917
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You just got bored so you made something up.
Well, that makes sense ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:12 AM   #918
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Nobody denies that there are (population) differences between men and women, they just point out that those differences do not justify discrimination against an entire gender. The average female height is undeniably about four inches less than the average male height, for example, but there are still plenty of women who are taller than the average man. You can protest discrimination against individuals without denying statistical differences between the demographic groups to which those individuals belong.
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:13 AM   #919
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Nobody denies that there are (population) differences between men and women, they just point out that those differences do not justify discrimination against an entire gender. The average female height is undeniably about four inches less than the average male height, for example, but there are still plenty of women who are taller than the average man. You can protest discrimination against individuals without denying statistical differences between the demographic groups to which those individuals belong.
Also it would be a distinct minority of people who use the phrase toxic masculinity and this it has a biological basis instead of a social one.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:31 AM   #920
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Nobody denies that there are (population) differences between men and women, they just point out that those differences do not justify discrimination against an entire gender. The average female height is undeniably about four inches less than the average male height, for example, but there are still plenty of women who are taller than the average man.
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