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Old 16th January 2019, 05:27 AM   #81
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You haven't watched the ad have you? If you had, you'd know that it's not an ad for razors.
Because I know that some people won't actually watch the ad and will go, but it's Gillette, thus they are advertising razors....

The ad is advertising Gillette re-branding their tagline, and explaining why they are doing it. They are noting that at this time there is a movement away from behaviours that might have once seemed like "joking around" or "boys being boys" from fighting, to bullying, to talking over women, or re-interrupting what they just said, all the way to more serious violence and sexual assaults, and that as part of that they feel as a brand they have a social responsibility as mostly a men's product to be a part of that conversation. They also acknowledge that there are men that already are standing up against these things and they want to encourage them and get others to start doing it so that the generation coming up will see it in the adults around them, and be better for it.

Two of the things they are doing is the change in tagline to "The best a man can be" and if you go to their website they give at the end, they detail all of this, plus add that they are giving a million dollars to three Non-Profits over the next three years, organisations that are "designed to inspire, educate and help men of all ages achieve their personal ďbestĒ and become role models for the next generation." They are starting by giving the first lot of one million dollars to the Boys and Girls Clubs of America.

So yeah, this is why I was pointing out that it's not an ad for razors.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:28 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's for a new Gillette line: Razor For Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very, Very Sensitive Skin.
How many blades is that?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I couldn't agree more.

Nonetheless, comparing a 20-30 clip to a church sermon is ridiculous. If you don't like it just don't watch it.
Yeah, except that ads are a bit harder to avoid than specific shows or channels, unless you just watch cable.

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I like the ad and I've spent the last 24 hours screaming at anyone I find on social media that has issues with it. I unapologetically call them rapists until they block me. Because, seriously, if you have an issue with this advert you are a freaking rapist and no one will ever talk me out of that stance.
You'll have to walk me through the logic, though.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:33 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Because I know that some people won't actually watch the ad and will go, but it's Gillette, thus they are advertising razors....

The ad is advertising Gillette re-branding their tagline, and explaining why they are doing it. They are noting that at this time there is a movement away from behaviours that might have once seemed like "joking around" or "boys being boys" from fighting, to bullying, to talking over women, or re-interrupting what they just said, all the way to more serious violence and sexual assaults, and that as part of that they feel as a brand they have a social responsibility as mostly a men's product to be a part of that conversation. They also acknowledge that there are men that already are standing up against these things and they want to encourage them and get others to start doing it so that the generation coming up will see it in the adults around them, and be better for it.

Two of the things they are doing is the change in tagline to "The best a man can be" and if you go to their website they give at the end, they detail all of this, plus add that they are giving a million dollars to three Non-Profits over the next three years, organisations that are "designed to inspire, educate and help men of all ages achieve their personal ďbestĒ and become role models for the next generation." They are starting by giving the first lot of one million dollars to the Boys and Girls Clubs of America.

So yeah, this is why I was pointing out that it's not an ad for razors.
Sorry, whatever else it is as well, it absolutely is (also) an ad for Gillette razors.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:33 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Laudable aims but A) not great for a razor company
Why? Are Razor Companies not allowed to have social consciences or something?

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B) at some point, too much of this well-meaning stuff will just create a backlash, if it isn't already the case.
I'd suggest that the ones that have the most issues with it are those that realise they can't hold up to the standard and thus lash out at the mirror rather than being willing to admit to their own short comings and change.

I'd say that those that are truly behaving in ways that the ad shows as better will have no issues with it, but rather feel encouraged to keep on working at getting better and being a better man for their kids and grandkids.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Laudable aims but A) not great for a razor company and B) at some point, too much of this well-meaning stuff will just create a backlash, if it isn't already the case.

Anyway, I'll stick with my Philips.
A) I think it fits in quite well with their "Best a man can get!" slogan. And I see no reason why a razor company cannot promote an issue similar to how other companies perform CSR.

B) I'm actually slightly surprised that the backlash has not been of the "Oh look at the company exploiting a serious issue for profit!" angle.

IIRC, the Pepsi ad received backlash from the same quarters that are praising Gillette so this can be a bit of a tight-rope.

Personally, I have no shares in Gillette, so I'm not worried about their profits, but also I think the ad is fine.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:36 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Sorry, whatever else it is as well, it absolutely is (also) an ad for Gillette razors.
Please show anywhere in the ad that advertises a razor of any kind. Your argument is purely that the Brand = Razors, which isn't actually true, even if that is their most famous product.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:36 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
No, but it makes you surprisingly sensitive for such a masculine guy.
I'm not sure "sensitive" is the right word. He finds it tedious. Is that sensitive? I find plenty of things tedious but I don't think it has anything to do with sensitivity. Same with preachy or pointess. So again, not sure how you got that. If he said offensive or insulting, sure.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I find this stuff annoyingly patronising.
Case in point.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But its logical

Men (generally) only shave their faces.
Women (generally) only shave their legs. (yes, I know about other parts they might shave! - let's not go there)

The surface area of two legs is a LOT larger than the surface area of a man's face, so it leads me to the conclusion that women probably wear out shavers considerably quicker than men, ergo, they would buy more for their personal use
My wife (who is Japanese) shaves her arms and hands, too. Underarms have been done permanently, otherwise she'd do those as well. That's quite the area.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I guess while everyone else is playing hurt moron, that means Gillette razors and cream will be going on special and I'll be able to stock up. Go Gillette! I'm 100% behind them and I totally agree. There are a lot of men with sexist attitudes, violence issues, and who have no issues with forcing themselves on women, be it a grope at a bar or club, to demanding sexual favours to remain employed, and the majority of men that aren't doing that sort of thing need to stop standing by when they see it happening, and treating it as a joke.
The majority of men? Are you talking to me? What the hell?

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No, because the "rest of us" need to have a good reminder
First of us, no we don't. Second, even if we do, we don't need the reminder every waking moment of our lives. And no, it's not just this one ad. There is a concerted effort to tell us a number of things that, while true and probably positive, become preachy by their nature, frequency and ubiquity. At some point, even a positive message becomes a bad one when people stop listening. No one likes being preached to.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:37 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I almost forgot about Piers Morgan's meltdown over the ad. That's another benefit.
It certainly generates more publicity. See also Greggs and the vegan sausage roll Twitter storm. The only question is whether Morganís somewhat predictable reaction was spontaneous in each case, or pre-arranged.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Please show anywhere in the ad that advertises a razor of any kind. Your argument is purely that the Brand = Razors, which isn't actually true, even if that is their most famous product.
Please show how it isnít, since all the coverage is mentioning Gillette razors.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:44 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Really? You know how many women find themselves being felt up in clubs? You know how every boss in NZ treats their female workers?
Do you?

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Well good for you, do you want a medal?
What's with the constant condescension? You seem to be operating under a fantasy conception of what men are in general.

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Your reaction by itself speaks volumes.
Of what? That makes no sense. If 3point14 said "you're right, we're cocks" that would mean you're right. If he said nothing, I'm sure you'd take that as evidence that you're right. If he objects, it "speaks volumes". So every single possibility leads to you being right. You don't see a problem with that?

No, being offended at a suggestion is no evidence that the suggestion is correct.

Quote:
You haven't watched the ad have you? If you had, you'd know that it's not an ad for razors.
And to be fair, that's ok. Coca-Cola has been doing commercials that have nothing to do with their product for ages now, and some of them are pretty damned inspiring. They don't tend to be preachy, however.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Real manly men don't want to be told that bullying is bad!
Or maybe they just don't want to be told over and over and over. Maybe they think they already know this stuff, even if you or others don't think they're woke enough.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:45 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well good for you, do you want a medal?



Congratulation is you do stand up when you see it, you made it to the level of basic human decency.
Now you want it both ways. You can't berate me for apparently not calling out antisocial behaviour and then get all sarcastic when I point out that I do. Make your mind up.

Either I get no medal and Gillette and you shut up about it because, as was my initial point, one should not get a cookie for a basic level of human decency.

or:

Gillette and you have a point, a basic level of human decency is rare and I have to point out - because you need reminding - that I have that level of human decency and don't need to be instructed by Gillette or by you.

Which is it? It can't be both.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:46 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Why? Are Razor Companies not allowed to have social consciences or something?
I hope you're just pretending to not get the point, which is that it's a risky strategy to choose that message for such a large part of your target market.

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I'd suggest that the ones that have the most issues with it are those that realise they can't hold up to the standard and thus lash out at the mirror rather than being willing to admit to their own short comings and change.
Yes but that's because you seem to have a predetermined conclusion about that. Maybe they just don't like the suggestion that they are something they're not. If I called you a rapist, assuming you're not one, would you not be offended? Would your offense prove my accusation?
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:46 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Please show anywhere in the ad that advertises a razor of any kind. Your argument is purely that the Brand = Razors, which isn't actually true, even if that is their most famous product.
A little more detail, having watched it. No, there is no explicit mention of razors, but they use the “Best a Man Can Get” slogan, associated with Gillette razors, they obviously use the Gillette name, and the ad starts with men looking in the mirror, exactly like ads for razors. The ad department is fully aware that they will be (they hope) sparking a lot of coverage on social media and conventional, and that nearly everyone will refer to Gillette razors; they don’t need to mention them by name in the ad.

However socially responsible they are being (and I certainly don’t disagree with the message), this is advertising, and it is being done to sell more Gillette razors.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The majority of men? Are you talking to me? What the hell?
I don't know, do you fit in with the silent majority, or stand up with the minority who are willing to say something? See that's the thing about the word "majority" it means "more than half", it doesn't mean "all".

Quote:
First of us, no we don't.
I disagree.

Quote:
Second, even if we do, we don't need the reminder every waking moment of our lives.
We aren't getting a reminder every waking moment of our lives.

Quote:
And no, it's not just this one ad. There is a concerted effort to tell us a number of things that, while true and probably positive, become preachy by their nature, frequency and ubiquity.
Do you have evidence of this "concerted effort"? If not, CT Forum is that way --->

Quote:
At some point, even a positive message becomes a bad one when people stop listening. No one likes being preached to.
The problem is that an awful lot of people haven't begun listening and clearly have no intention of doing so. I wonder, do you react the same way when there is an ad telling you that speeding is bad or that you should wear a seat belt?
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:48 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Please show anywhere in the ad that advertises a razor of any kind. Your argument is purely that the Brand = Razors, which isn't actually true, even if that is their most famous product.
What is this Levis advert selling?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:48 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A) I think it fits in quite well with their "Best a man can get!" slogan.
Oh, absolutely. A very slick choice of slogan by them, no doubt about that.

As an aside: I use Pert for my shampoo, and the current iteration has "still the best" on the label. The French version, however, was wilier, and has "still ahead" (in French) instead. A-head... shampoo... get it? Much smarter.

Quote:
And I see no reason why a razor company cannot promote an issue similar to how other companies perform CSR.
As stated above, that's no issue. It's how they chose to do it that might hurt their bottom line.

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B) I'm actually slightly surprised that the backlash has not been of the "Oh look at the company exploiting a serious issue for profit!" angle.
Well, that's always a given.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:49 AM   #97
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:52 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post



And to be fair, that's ok. Coca-Cola has been doing commercials that have nothing to do with their product for ages now, and some of them are pretty damned inspiring. They don't tend to be preachy, however.
Just because they donít say ďdrink Coca-ColaĒ doesnít mean that they arenít ads for Coca-Cola. They are there to promote the brand, and the product, however indirectly it might seem.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:53 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I don't know
You DO know, since you made the accusation. Have the courage of your convictions, here.

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do you fit in with the silent majority
Who's the silent majority? Again, make your accusation clear, consistent and well-supported.

Quote:
I disagree.
See? Now you're back to accusing most of us of being morally deficient. But right up here you said you didn't know.

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We aren't getting a reminder every waking moment of our lives.
Again you're being coy for no reason. I'm sure you're aware of the concept of hyperbole, and I'm sure you know exactly what I meant by that. Playing dumb doesn't suit you.

Quote:
Do you have evidence of this "concerted effort"? If not, CT Forum is that way --->
First of all, no, it's <--- that way, and second, I didn't mention or imply a conspiracy. Again it seems like you're pretending to not understand words, presumably because they challenge your stance. The concerted effort need not be coordinated. But there are a LOT of attempts across all media to tell us these things over and over, and at some point the saturation will backfire. I'm pretty sure that, like me, you don't want women and minorities to pay the price for that.

Quote:
The problem is that an awful lot of people haven't begun listening and clearly have no intention of doing so.
Evidence?
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:53 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
It certainly generates more publicity. See also Greggs and the vegan sausage roll Twitter storm. The only question is whether Morganís somewhat predictable reaction was spontaneous in each case, or pre-arranged.
Maybe it was done with his megaphone abilities in mind.

("We need more publicity, see if you can wind up Piers Morgan!"
"It will be my pleasure, ma'am!")
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:54 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
A little more detail, having watched it. No, there is no explicit mention of razors, but they use the “Best a Man Can Get” slogan, associated with Gillette razors, they obviously use the Gillette name, and the ad starts with men looking in the mirror, exactly like ads for razors. The ad department is fully aware that they will be (they hope) sparking a lot of coverage on social media and conventional, and that nearly everyone will refer to Gillette razors; they don’t need to mention them by name in the ad.
The "Best a Man can Get" is their Brand tagline, it's not just on the razors, but also the shaving creams, body wash, deodorants, aftershave and so on. They are using the Gillette name because it's the Brand, that is what they are advertising. Yeah I an sure that they are hoping that by being seen as a Company with a Social Conscience that will help sell their products, including razors, that is what Brand advertising is all about, and this is a form of Brand advertising, I never denied that, I actually said it was.

The mistake people are making is, and this includes the Reporters, is that they are confusing the Brand and the Product.

This ad is really just the same as a Nike ad showing a person running through a forest and then saying "Just Do it"

They aren't advertising shoes, they are advertising their Nike Brand and hoping you'll buy Nike products, be it shoes or shorts or a top. Saying it was advertising shoes would be wrong, and so is saying that the Gillette ad is advertising Razors. It's not, it's advertising Gillette and razors are one of the range of products they sell.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:54 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Just because they donít say ďdrink Coca-ColaĒ doesnít mean that they arenít ads for Coca-Cola. They are there to promote the brand, and the product, however indirectly it might seem.
I didn't say they weren't ads for Coca-Cola, I said they had nothing to do with the product. That doesn't mean that they're not promoting the company.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:55 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that an awful lot of people haven't begun listening and clearly have no intention of doing so. I wonder, do you react the same way when there is an ad telling you that speeding is bad or that you should wear a seat belt?

The reaction society towards those who speed or don't wear their seatbelts is a little different to those who commit sexual assault or garner sexual favours for employment advancement so therefore yes, an implicit accusation of the former is much, much less galling than an implicit accusation of the latter.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I didn't say they weren't ads for Coca-Cola, I said they had nothing to do with the product. That doesn't mean that they're not promoting the company.
They are also ads for the product, because thatís what Coca-Cola sells.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:57 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They aren't advertising shoes, they are advertising their Nike Brand and hoping you'll buy Nike products, be it shoes or shorts or a top. Saying it was advertising shoes would be wrong, and so is saying that the Gillette ad is advertising Razors. It's not, it's advertising Gillette and razors are one of the range of products they sell.
Is this level of pedantry really required.

In casual conversation, if asked, "What do Gillette make?"...
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:59 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The mistake people are making is, and this includes the Reporters, is that they are confusing the Brand and the Product.
You say mistake; I say this is exactly what the people who devised the ad campaign expected. More coverage talking about Gillette razors.
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:08 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
They are also ads for the product, because thatís what Coca-Cola sells.
Zoo, you're missing the point. The ad itself doesn't promote the product. You want me to add "directly" or is that clear enough?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:12 AM   #108
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deleted - topic adequately covered
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:14 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You DO know, since you made the accusation. Have the courage of your convictions, here.
You do know that "Majority" doesn't mean "All" right?

Quote:
Who's the silent majority? Again, make your accusation clear, consistent and well-supported.
The silent majority are those that stand by and allow others to carry on their bad behaviours either by excusing it as "boys will be boys", or by just turning a blind eye to it. If you feel that describes you then congratulations, feel free to add yourself to the basket. If it doesn't, then congratulations on achieving the status of a basically decent human being.

Quote:
See? Now you're back to accusing most of us of being morally deficient. But right up here you said you didn't know.
No I'm accusing most men of being unwilling to stand up and do something about the "morally actual deficient" men in their midst and this is indeed my experience of most men both those I have known personally, and those I have seen publicly. Heck I was once in that group, I was too shy and scared to stand up to those I saw as older and in authority and so just cringed on the inside, but didn't speak up. I have progressed since those days.

Quote:
Again you're being coy for no reason. I'm sure you're aware of the concept of hyperbole, and I'm sure you know exactly what I meant by that. Playing dumb doesn't suit you.
It has nothing to do with being coy, you seem to want me to walk down the line and say, "you're an *******"... "you aren't." Afraid I'm not going to do that, you have the measure, it's up to you to decide which category you fit into.

Quote:
First of all, no, it's <--- that way, and second, I didn't mention or imply a conspiracy. Again it seems like you're pretending to not understand words, presumably because they challenge your stance. The concerted effort need not be coordinated.
I suggest that you check a dictionary....

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the adjective “concerted” as meaning “arranged by mutual agreement; agreed upon, pre-arranged; planned, contrived; done in concert.”

Quote:
But there are a LOT of attempts across all media to tell us these things over and over, and at some point the saturation will backfire. I'm pretty sure that, like me, you don't want women and minorities to pay the price for that.
If you truly think that by telling men to behave better it will result in their going out and making lives worse for women and minorities, then you have a worse opinion of men than I do.

Quote:
Evidence?
Do you really need me to post evidence that women are being sexually harassed?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-women-survey
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:23 AM   #110
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What a massive nontroversy.

The ad is not anti-male, it is anti-jerk. The only way to see this as anti-male is if you think all males are, or should be, jerks.
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:24 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No I'm accusing most men of being unwilling to stand up and do something about the "morally actual deficient" men in their midst and this is indeed my experience of most men both those I have known personally, and those I have seen publicly.
Like I said, I think you need a new social group and new places to hang out.


What makes you think that your experience is typical and mine:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If you don't recogcise it then either you live in an amazingly enlightened part of the world (I seriously doubt it) to you need to open your eyes and ask a few of the women you know about their experiences with harassment.

Is not?



In short, why do you think your experiences are more valid and more common than mine?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:24 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Zoo, you're missing the point. The ad itself doesn't promote the product. You want me to add "directly" or is that clear enough?
Itís getting a bit semantic, yes. My contention is whether or not the ad actually mentions or features the product, the ultimate purpose of the ad is to sell more product (in this case, razors, and associated male grooming products). Itís a very narrow definition to say that itís not advertising the product because the product is not mentioned in the ad. I donít know if advertising in the US tends to be less sophisticated (we tend to see the more extreme straightforward ďbuy this productĒ ones on TV entertainment shows mocking the basic approach), but the ad agencies do plenty of market research and will be fully aware that they donít need to actually show or mention razors for people to make the connection given all the cues that they do give, and what will happen when the ad is discussed in the following media coverage.
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:29 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You do know that "Majority" doesn't mean "All" right?
You still need to have a picture of "All" in order to make a claim about the "Majority". That's how stats work.

Quote:
The silent majority are those that stand by and allow others to carry on their bad behaviours either by excusing it as "boys will be boys", or by just turning a blind eye to it. If you feel that describes you then congratulations, feel free to add yourself to the basket. If it doesn't, then congratulations on achieving the status of a basically decent human being.
You don't think "basically decent" describes, almost by definition, the majority?

Quote:
No I'm accusing most men of being unwilling to stand up and do something about the "morally actual deficient" men in their midst and this is indeed my experience of most men both those I have known personally, and those I have seen publicly.
Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant. I ask you for evidence.

Quote:
I suggest that you check a dictionary....

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the adjective “concerted” as meaning “arranged by mutual agreement; agreed upon, pre-arranged; planned, contrived; done in concert.”
Fine, consider it retracted.

Quote:
If you truly think that by telling men to behave better it will result in their going out and making lives worse for women and minorities, then you have a worse opinion of men than I do.
Now you're being coy. I've made it clear why I think such a backlash would occur: when you suggest something positive to someone, they might take it to heart and say something along the lines of "I'll try to do better" or "I'll try to pay attention to that in the future". But after the 500th time you tell them, and indeed well before that point, they'll tell you to **** off. And when enough of them have told you that, they might ignore your positive message even if it's very pertinent or even very important. And that helps your polar opposites, who apparently would like nothing more than for women to be biological incubators an sandwich-making machines.

Quote:
Do you really need me to post evidence that women are being sexually harassed?
That is not the claim I asked evidence for. Said claim is in the post you were responding to, so I can't believe you lost track of the conversation by accident. Your entire contribution to this thread presumes that most men are enabling the dicks. I'm asking you for evidence of that.
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:29 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The reaction society towards those who speed or don't wear their seatbelts is a little different to those who commit sexual assault or garner sexual favours for employment advancement so therefore yes, an implicit accusation of the former is much, much less galling than an implicit accusation of the latter.
Well just as well this ad doesn't implicitly accuse anyone of sexual assault, and anyone that thinks it does might need to have a long look at themselves as to why hearing a news report saying those words triggered them so badly.

In fact the visuals in the ad focused far more on Bullying, Fighting, and the forms of sexual harassment that were seen as minor, or "Just having a laugh" more than anything else.

And the thing is, that society probably sees speeding or not wearing your seat belt as worse because no cop is going to ticket you for pinching your assistant's backside, or telling everyone at a meeting that she really meant something else other than what she say, or for sending nasty texts, or for posting horrid anonymous comments, or two boys fighting in the yard. See society has for a long time considered these as kinda acceptable, just boys being boys, you know like stealing cars and speeding and getting in police chases. It's all acceptable if you're just a 13 year old boy, until you burn to death in a crashed car.

But hey, as long as they find that full on rape is bad (depending on how drunk she was and what she was wearing), why not overlook the tiny stuff like the cat calling, the gestures, the groping in clubs and things like that. Right?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:33 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Itís getting a bit semantic, yes. My contention is whether or not the ad actually mentions or features the product, the ultimate purpose of the ad is to sell more product (in this case, razors, and associated male grooming products). Itís a very narrow definition to say that itís not advertising the product because the product is not mentioned in the ad. I donít know if advertising in the US tends to be less sophisticated (we tend to see the more extreme straightforward ďbuy this productĒ ones on TV entertainment shows mocking the basic approach), but the ad agencies do plenty of market research and will be fully aware that they donít need to actually show or mention razors for people to make the connection given all the cues that they do give, and what will happen when the ad is discussed in the following media coverage.
Sure, we're not really disagreeing.
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:45 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well just as well this ad doesn't implicitly accuse anyone of sexual assault, and anyone that thinks it does might need to have a long look at themselves as to why hearing a news report saying those words triggered them so badly.
Like I say, I'm getting fed up with the remedial classes.


Quote:
In fact the visuals in the ad focused far more on Bullying, Fighting, and the forms of sexual harassment that were seen as minor, or "Just having a laugh" more than anything else.
Not seen that way by me, my peers, my colleagues or anyone I associate with regularly. We really don't need telling.


Quote:
And the thing is, that society probably sees speeding or not wearing your seat belt as worse because no cop is going to ticket you for pinching your assistant's backside, or telling everyone at a meeting that she really meant something else other than what she say, or for sending nasty texts, or for posting horrid anonymous comments, or two boys fighting in the yard. See society has for a long time considered these as kinda acceptable, just boys being boys, you know like stealing cars and speeding and getting in police chases. It's all acceptable if you're just a 13 year old boy, until you burn to death in a crashed car.
That doesn't obviate my point. Society very much holds different views on one to the other. All your bluster doesn't change that.


Quote:
But hey, as long as they find that full on rape is bad (depending on how drunk she was and what she was wearing), why not overlook the tiny stuff like the cat calling, the gestures, the groping in clubs and things like that. Right?
Who in the living **** said that? Seriously, who said that? I haven't seen anyone say that anywhere on this thread.

Show me where I or anyone else said that. You're arguing against a viewpoint that nobody in this thread has stated.


What's your emotional connection to this? Why the massive, emotional reaction and hyperbole?


Oh, and you didn't answer - why are your personal experiences so much more an accurate reflection than mine? Why do you think your personal experience trumps mine?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:55 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well just as well this ad doesn't implicitly accuse anyone of sexual assault, and anyone that thinks it does might need to have a long look at themselves as to why hearing a news report saying those words triggered them so badly.
Why did you ignore my previous question? If I called you a rapist, would you be offended by it, and would that prove the accusation correct?
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:00 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why did you ignore my previous question? If I called you a rapist, would you be offended by it, and would that prove the accusation correct?
My question was also ignored.

It's almost like (s)he believes that only their experiences count and everyone else's are invalid.

We're two inches away from, "YOU DON'T KNOW, MAN! YOU WEREN'T THERE!"
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:00 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You still need to have a picture of "All" in order to make a claim about the "Majority". That's how stats work.
True, but "All" is made up of ********, those that knowingly stand by and allow ******** to be ********, those that know that the ******** are ******** and turn a blind eye to their behaviour for various reasons, and those that are willing to stand up and tell the ******** that they are ********. In my experience the later group are few and far between while most men fit into the third group, knowing that some of the people around them are ********, but being unwilling to to anything about it.

Quote:
You don't think "basically decent" describes, almost by definition, the majority?
I think if you are willing to stand by silently when you see someone acting like an *******, then no, that's not being a decent human being.

Quote:
Your anecdotal experience is irrelevant. I ask you for evidence.
I'm giving my opinion not writing a science paper.

Quote:
Now you're being coy.
No I wasn't being coy at all, I was being quite explicit.

Quote:
I've made it clear why I think such a backlash would occur: when you suggest something positive to someone, they might take it to heart and say something along the lines of "I'll try to do better" or "I'll try to pay attention to that in the future". But after the 500th time you tell them, and indeed well before that point, they'll tell you to **** off. And when enough of them have told you that, they might ignore your positive message even if it's very pertinent or even very important. And that helps your polar opposites, who apparently would like nothing more than for women to be biological incubators an sandwich-making machines.
I don't believe that men are this bad at all. I believe that most men fail to act because of what they feel as social pressure, they don't want to be seen as different, or to rock the boat, and besides it's not that bad anyways. I believe that as society changes and it becomes unacceptable behaviour that it will give them the courage to stand up and say "That's wrong"with less worry of being looked down on. I also believe that when people are doing the right thing and they hear the message, they will either simply tune it out because it's not relevant to them, or it'll booster them because they know they are backed up by society. I believe that the only ones that will "backlash" are the ones that the message triggers because they know that they exhibit those behaviours and don't like what they see in the mirror it holds up, and they are already the problem anyways and hopefully as Society makes it more and more unacceptable to be a dick, they will fade away and be less a problem at which point the message can be faded out too.

Quote:
That is not the claim I asked evidence for. Said claim is in the post you were responding to, so I can't believe you lost track of the conversation by accident. Your entire contribution to this thread presumes that most men are enabling the dicks. I'm asking you for evidence of that.
I think that the link actually did do that to a degree, in that it showed that most men don't have any idea how much women are being harassed, and that in itself enables the dicks by their behaviours not being called out.

However, for more evidence look at all the stuff going on that came out of the #metoo movement. People knew what was going one with Weinstein, they know that was going on at Fox News and all the rest. Go back to the Jerry Sandusky case, it was known, he was even seen and those around him allowed it to continue by their inaction.

People know, the ******** friends all know what they do, and those that don't actively encourage it, turn a blind eye to it.

Do I have studies, no, but from what I have seen, for every ******* there are plenty of men that know what is going on, and do nothing, that it is a very rare man that stands up and actively says no and puts a stop to these bad behaviours. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this, but everything I have seen tells me I am not.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:02 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why did you ignore my previous question? If I called you a rapist, would you be offended by it, and would that prove the accusation correct?
Sorry, what was the previous question and who is calling you a rapist?
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