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Old 16th January 2019, 07:03 AM   #121
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
an ad for razors which does nothing but equate men with rapists
There is absolutely nothing of the sort in the advertisement. You either watched the wrong video, or your imagination has drifted in some rather disturbing directions.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:03 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
People know, the ******** friends all know what they do, and those that don't actively encourage it, turn a blind eye to it.

Do I have studies, no, but from what I have seen, for every ******* there are plenty of men that know what is going on, and do nothing, that it is a very rare man that stands up and actively says no and puts a stop to these bad behaviours. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this, but everything I have seen tells me I am not.

You really, really need a new place to hang out. And some new associates. Those I hang out with are practically queuing up to do exactly you say men do not.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:06 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I find this stuff annoyingly patronising.

.... Can we separate out the idiots and preach to them separately, because a lot of the rest of us are fed up with the repeated exhortations to not be somebody we're already not.
Very well put.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:09 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What a massive nontroversy.

The ad is not anti-male, it is anti-jerk. The only way to see this as anti-male is if you think all males are, or should be, jerks.
Exactly.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:10 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
My question was also ignored.
No, it hasn't been, the thread is moving fast and I've been trying to respond to multiple people. However it's now 3am for me and I'm going to bed.

On the Gillette Brand thing, I actually buy their shaving foam way more than their razors, so if asked what they produce, I'd tell you shaving foam first, razors second, and men's body care products third.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:10 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Grey2000 View Post
Very well put.
Exactly you are happy to stand by and let them do as they want to, boys will be boys and all and really those women meeting Cosby privately what else did they expect?
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:13 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Sorry, what was the previous question and who is calling you a rapist?
The question was the one you just quoted. Please answer it. If I called you a rapist, would you be offended by it, and would that prove the accusation correct?
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:16 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The question was the one you just quoted. Please answer it. If I called you a rapist, would you be offended by it, and would that prove the accusation correct?
Just before I go to bed, your question is irrelevant as no one is calling anyone else a rapist so it is a strawman and of no relevance to the discussion.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:17 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
True, but "All" is made up of ********, those that knowingly stand by and allow ******** to be ********, those that know that the ******** are ******** and turn a blind eye to their behaviour for various reasons, and those that are willing to stand up and tell the ******** that they are ********. In my experience the later group are few and far between while most men fit into the third group, knowing that some of the people around them are ********, but being unwilling to to anything about it.
Once again, I don't care about your anecdotal experience. Where is your EVIDENCE?

Quote:
I think if you are willing to stand by silently when you see someone acting like an *******, then no, that's not being a decent human being.
That is an answer to a different question, Wolf. Why don't you answer my actual questions?

Quote:
I'm giving my opinion not writing a science paper.
Your opinion isn't worth more than mine or anyone else's. Why should I take your claim as sound, then?

Quote:
I don't believe that men are this bad at all.
Some are, and they benefit from the oversaturation of those messages in the way I described. Sometimes, advocates for a cause are their own worst enemy.

I'm not arguing against your contention that many men enable the dicks. I'm arguing against your contention that MOST men enable the dicks.

Quote:
I think that the link actually did do that to a degree, in that it showed that most men don't have any idea how much women are being harassed, and that in itself enables the dicks by their behaviours not being called out.
That's a different claim, though.

Quote:
However, for more evidence look at all the stuff going on that came out of the #metoo movement.
Careful with your choice of examples, though. The movement is pretty hit-and-miss.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:17 AM   #130
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Welcome to Los Angeles International Airport, where the local time is 3:47 pm. We apologize for the delay at San Francisco International Airport. We know you have a choice in airlines, so thank you for flying South West. We look forward to seeing you again soon, and would like to remind parents everywhere that selling your children for booze money is a bad thing.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:18 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, it hasn't been, the thread is moving fast and I've been trying to respond to multiple people. However it's now 3am for me and I'm going to bed.
Fair point. It happens. Apologies.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:18 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Just before I go to bed, your question is irrelevant as no one is calling anyone else a rapist so it is a strawman and of no relevance to the discussion.
My questions is not irrelevant. I could ask about calling you a thief or a lawyer (same thing). The point isn't the actual accusation, but whether the reaction to it proves anything about its validity. I've made that very clear several times already and now I can only conclude that you don't want to answer it because you'd have to retract something you said before if you did.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:20 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I see their YouTube ad is doing well. 229K likes vs 598K dislikes.

Who would have thought that an ad for razors which does nothing but equate men with rapists would no be an instant success?
What a funny perspective.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:39 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What a massive nontroversy.

The ad is not anti-male, it is anti-jerk. The only way to see this as anti-male is if you think all males are, or should be, jerks.
Oh it's not that. See, we have all these people who are all concerned about the Gillette company, and how this marketing approach doesn't do an effective job of selling their products. Apparently, a lot of people are suddenly concerned about Gillette's profitability.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:41 AM   #135
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As always with complaints about stuff like this I imagine what the reaction would be if the source of the controversy really were literally how the complainers characterize it. Like in this case, what if a razor ad actually accused all men of being rapists?

[Chiselled handsome man, shirtless, shaving before mirror]
Man: I've got to look my best...for rape!
Voiceover: As a man, you have a lot of raping to do, and you don't have time to re-shave any missed bits. With the new Gillette Violater X5000 Razor you can shave quickly, accurately, and with minimum force, just like the rape you enjoy so much.
Man: If I shave every hair off my body there will be less DNA evidence!
Voiceover: Good point! Buy our new jumbo pack of one hundred Violater X5000 Razors and be secure in your hairless raping!
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:42 AM   #136
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Harry's Razors tweeted a similar masculinity sentiment in 2017. Gillette apparently pointed this out. Harry's then deleted the tweet.
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Old 16th January 2019, 07:43 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As always with complaints about stuff like this I imagine what the reaction would be if the source of the controversy really were literally how the complainers characterize it. Like in this case, what if a razor ad actually accused all men of being rapists?

[Chiselled handsome man, shirtless, shaving before mirror]
Man: I've got to look my best...for rape!
Voiceover: As a man, you have a lot of raping to do, and you don't have time to re-shave any missed bits. With the new Gillette Violater X5000 Razor you can shave quickly, accurately, and with minimum force, just like the rape you enjoy so much.
Man: If I shave every hair off my body there will be less DNA evidence!
Voiceover: Good point! Buy our new jumbo pack of one hundred Violater X5000 Razors and be secure in your hairless raping!
They can show him shaving his head, but be suggestive on other parts...
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:18 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Oh it's not that. See, we have all these people who are all concerned about the Gillette company, and how this marketing approach doesn't do an effective job of selling their products. Apparently, a lot of people are suddenly concerned about Gillette's profitability.
That's a pretty massive strawman you have there. It's almost the Wicker Man, in fact.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:25 AM   #139
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I do remember an old black and white razor advert, shown on one of those TV compilations, that began with a man thumping his fist on a sink and yelling, "Oi! Why haven't you bought me any razors, you stupid bint!" or words to that effect.

Then there is a soothing voiceover: Now you can buy Disposable Wifebeaters in sets of ten, rather than the customary five. Dave's wife now buys them when performing her housewife duties. Dave still shouts at his wife...

Dave: Oi, you stupid cow!

Voiceover: ... [chuckles] but now only half as often.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:25 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I do remember an old black and white razor advert, shown on one of those TV compilations, that began with a man thumping his fist on a sink and yelling, "Oi! Why haven't you bought me any razors, you stupid bint!" or words to that effect.

Then there is a soothing voiceover: Now you can buy Disposable Wifebeaters in sets of ten, rather than the customary five. Dave's wife now buys them when performing her housewife duties. Dave still shouts at his wife...

Dave: Oi, you stupid cow!

Voiceover: ... [chuckles] but now only half as often.
Dave's a jackass.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:28 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dave's a jackass.
When his wife murders him she sets it up to look like suicide, using one of those razors. Now there's a good commercial!
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:30 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dave's a jackass.
Maybe but you can't suggest things like that in a commercial that would be anti-male.

Now we can go back to the good ads advocating masculinity like spanking your wife for buying the wrong coffee.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:33 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
When his wife murders him she sets it up to look like suicide, using one of those razors. Now there's a good commercial!
I can see Family Guy doing something like that with it.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:38 AM   #144
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I've seen the ad a couple times now and had the same impression each time. And I've probably paid as much attention to it as the average viewer.

1. Quick cut of two boys wrestling on the ground. It appears they are having fun. The Grillin' Man Line just shrugs and says "Boys will be boys!" I don't see anything wrong with that. Now, I would get the objections if the boys were fighting, or kicking a dog or something.

2. The end of the commercial shows several kids and states "These boys are going to grow up to be men." I had to look twice and think, "Those are boys?" I don't think the androgyny helped the message any.

3. Living with a person in transition, I'm alerted at that line itself. I am at a point in my life where I can give consideration that boys can grow up to be women also. I think a much more appropriate message would be "These boys are going to grow up to be adults." It doesn't matter what gender you are (or identify as). Treat others with respect.

4. I'm not averse to inappropriate jokes told in appropriate situations.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:41 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
4. I'm not averse to inappropriate jokes told in appropriate situations.
How are the jokes inappropriate if the situation is appropriate? That's the whole point of an inappropriate joke. Not trying to be pedantic, this just caught my eye.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:46 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
There is absolutely nothing of the sort in the advertisement. You either watched the wrong video, or your imagination has drifted in some rather disturbing directions.
You're right. I should have said rapists, sexual deviants, misogynists and bullies. And not just any man, of course, it's the white man who's the problem. Out of six men seen behaving badly in that ad, not one is black. Indeed, the only two scenes where a man steps up to stop another man perving on a woman, the perv is white and the upstanding citizen is black.

Anyone who doesn't see this for the garbage, divisive, jump-on-the-bandwagon **** that it is needs to wash their brain out with soap and water.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:47 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dave's a jackass.
See, the ad does work!
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:48 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
See, the ad does work!
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:51 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're right. I should have said rapists, sexual deviants, misogynists and bullies. And not just any man, of course, it's the white man who's the problem. Out of six men seen behaving badly in that ad, not one is black. Indeed, the only two scenes where a man steps up to stop another man perving on a woman, the perv is white and the upstanding citizen is black.

Anyone who doesn't see this for the garbage, divisive, jump-on-the-bandwagon **** that it is needs to wash their brain out with soap and water.
Well, the ad was designed to show black men how to behave.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:53 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They can show him shaving his head, but be suggestive on other parts...
I'm pretty sure that ad already exists.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:56 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're right. I should have said rapists, sexual deviants, misogynists and bullies. And not just any man, of course, it's the white man who's the problem. Out of six men seen behaving badly in that ad, not one is black. Indeed, the only two scenes where a man steps up to stop another man perving on a woman, the perv is white and the upstanding citizen is black.

Anyone who doesn't see this for the garbage, divisive, jump-on-the-bandwagon **** that it is needs to wash their brain out with soap and water.
Or just stop outrage-shopping by over-analyzing adverts.

I think most DVRs can offer you a “space” to avoid other folks opinions which is “safe” to view your programs.

Or, stop the world to melt with you.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:00 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
1. Quick cut of two boys wrestling on the ground. It appears they are having fun. The Grillin' Man Line just shrugs and says "Boys will be boys!" I don't see anything wrong with that. Now, I would get the objections if the boys were fighting, or kicking a dog or something.
I got the impression that one of the boys was absolutely not enjoying it. As I recall, he was even telling the other to stop.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:02 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're right. I should have said rapists, sexual deviants, misogynists and bullies.
Please stop making stuff up. The advertisement does not depict anyone as a rapist.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:03 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What a massive nontroversy.
The ad is not anti-male, it is anti-jerk. The only way to see this as anti-male is if you think all males are, or should be, jerks.

An awful lot of jerks seem to think so.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:06 AM   #155
kellyb
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I have no strong feeling about the commercial either way.

I like the content of the video. If it were a PSA coming from some "Organization for Masculine Morality" I'd think was great. In the context of trying to sell overpriced razors, I feel kinda pandered to, though, in a way that doesn't sit quite right with me. I've always been slightly put off by those "Choosy Moms Choose Jiff" commercials, too, though.

Manipulating people via moralizing for the purpose of a-social/antisocial capitalism is distasteful to my delicate Marxist sensibilities, I guess. LOL
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:16 AM   #156
kellyb
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
An awful lot of jerks seem to think so.
I was hoping you'd chime in!

If he were able to hold and concisely communicate a train of thought about this ad, what do you think Slavoj Žižek would say about this?

lol
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:21 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Or just stop outrage-shopping by over-analyzing adverts.

I think most DVRs can offer you a “space” to avoid other folks opinions which is “safe” to view your programs.

Or, stop the world to melt with you.
So sorry I did violence to you with my different opinion. Maybe the next Gillette ad should include a horrible sexist white man writing a couple of sentences about an advert. "Whoa, dude, not cool!"

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Please stop making stuff up. The advertisement does not depict anyone as a rapist.
Of course it does. You think the drooling, misogynist white man who addresses a woman as 'sweetie' or smiles and makes a move to speak to a woman in the street is not going to forcibly bend her over the nearest bench and smash her back doors in unless a passing black man intervenes and wields a civilising influence? Come on, get with it.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:23 AM   #158
dann
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What is obviously happening here is that a commercial company has noticed a trend and is latching on to it, i.e. profiling itself as anti-traditional-masculinity ideology. It probably already knew from market research that an outdated and rather irrelevant segment of the market, i.e. the supporters of traditional masculinity ideology, would protest vehemently, which turned out to be the case. The supporters of tmi feel validated by their number and for a short while they're able to persuade themselves that they aren't a population segment on the brink of extinction.
R.I.P. Won't miss them.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:26 AM   #159
kellyb
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is obviously happening here is that a commercial company has noticed a trend and is latching on to it, i.e. profiling itself as anti-traditional-masculinity ideology. It probably already knew from market research that an outdated and rather irrelevant segment of the market, i.e. the supporters of traditional masculinity ideology, would protest vehemently, which turned out to be the case. The supporters of tmi feel validated by their number and for a short while they're able to persuade themselves that they aren't a population segment on the brink of extinction.
R.I.P. Won't miss them.
Well put.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:40 AM   #160
3point14
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
...and smash her back doors in...
Plural..?
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