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Old 16th January 2019, 09:41 AM   #161
autumn1971
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So sorry I did violence to you with my different opinion. Maybe the next Gillette ad should include a horrible sexist white man writing a couple of sentences about an advert. "Whoa, dude, not cool!"



Of course it does. You think the drooling, misogynist white man who addresses a woman as 'sweetie' or smiles and makes a move to speak to a woman in the street is not going to forcibly bend her over the nearest bench and smash her back doors in unless a passing black man intervenes and wields a civilising influence? Come on, get with it.
Wow, whoosh.

Havenít seen the ad, but itís an ad. Itís by definition simply a play on the thoughts of its audience in order to manipulate them.

Seems to have worked
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:45 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Why does anyone still buy this overpriced crap? Get a double-edged razor. The blades are about 20 times cheaper.
Amen, and I get a closer shave when I use them.

Besides, its not a razor company's place to tell me how to be a man. That is for breweries, truck companies, and gun manufacturers

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Old 16th January 2019, 09:50 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I got the impression that one of the boys was absolutely not enjoying it. As I recall, he was even telling the other to stop.
That is all part of the fun traditional masculinity. I mean there is clearly nothing wrong when someone is holding someone else down and hitting them, they are just playing cops and blacks.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:55 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is obviously happening here is that a commercial company has noticed a trend and is latching on to it, i.e. profiling itself as anti-traditional-masculinity ideology. It probably already knew from market research that an outdated and rather irrelevant segment of the market, i.e. the supporters of traditional masculinity ideology, would protest vehemently, which turned out to be the case. The supporters of tmi feel validated by their number and for a short while they're able to persuade themselves that they aren't a population segment on the brink of extinction.
R.I.P. Won't miss them.
Dann, I'm with you for the first sentence, but it really reads like you're saying that if one disagrees with the ad in any respect, that person must be a paleolithic woman-hater. Sure, having read the thread, you can't believe that.
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Old 16th January 2019, 09:56 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is obviously happening here is that a commercial company has noticed a trend and is latching on to it, i.e. profiling itself as anti-traditional-masculinity ideology. It probably already knew from market research that an outdated and rather irrelevant segment of the market, i.e. the supporters of traditional masculinity ideology, would protest vehemently, which turned out to be the case. The supporters of tmi feel validated by their number and for a short while they're able to persuade themselves that they aren't a population segment on the brink of extinction.
R.I.P. Won't miss them.
Pretty much. No company is going out on a limb for this sort of thing. Gillette is probably reaching out to a younger, more socially aware audience. The old men who are mad about this are either

1) not the person in their household who guys bathroom products or

2) going to fall back into their habits anyway after a week or so

"Don't be a bully or creep" is a fairly low bar to set so I don't get why people are really angry over this. And I don't think Gillette suddenly got "woke" (can we retire that term already?).
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Old 16th January 2019, 10:22 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I see their YouTube ad is doing well. 229K likes vs 598K dislikes.

Who would have thought that an ad for razors which does nothing but equate men with rapists would no be an instant success?

Strange....I didn't make that connection. I mean almost all rapists are men but clearly not all men are rapists...in fact wasn't the point of the ad that the good men who normally say nothing need to step up and be more vocal?


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You'll have to walk me through the logic, though.

Easy, the advert says rape is bad. Some people hate the advert. Therefore those people are pro-rape either because they are rapists or because they generally think rape is awesome.


If any of you follow me on facebook you know that I'm not kidding about this.
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Old 16th January 2019, 10:25 AM   #167
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Never mind

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Old 16th January 2019, 10:29 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Easy, the advert says rape is bad. Some people hate the advert. Therefore those people are pro-rape either because they are rapists or because they generally think rape is awesome.
Sorry, that doesn't follow.

If you punch me in the face while telling me that theft is bad, and I tell you that I don't like what you're doing, it doesn't mean I agree with theft. I'm talking about your method of getting the message across. Your logic is completely broken.

The posters here who have spoken out about the ad are doing so because of the way in which the message is made, and the increasing frequency of similar messages, apparently presuming, like PhantomWolf does, that men in general need to be told this stuff. They are objecting to what they perceive is condescention and preachiness. Nothing in this thread, in any post, by anyone, suggests that anyone here is in favour of rape in any way, shape or form. Again, your logic needs revisiting.
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Old 16th January 2019, 10:39 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry, that doesn't follow.

If you punch me in the face while telling me that theft is bad, and I tell you that I don't like what you're doing, it doesn't mean I agree with theft. I'm talking about your method of getting the message across. Your logic is completely broken.
They just don't see the acts displayed as problematic, like one kid holding another down and hitting him about the face is seen as fun. That somewhat undermines the idea that these statements go with out saying. If that was the case you wouldn't see people arguing that this is an attack on maleness.
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Old 16th January 2019, 10:45 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course it does. You think the drooling, misogynist white man who addresses a woman as 'sweetie' or smiles and makes a move to speak to a woman in the street is not going to forcibly bend her over the nearest bench and smash her back doors in unless a passing black man intervenes and wields a civilising influence? Come on, get with it.
I'm just gonna chalk this up as an extremely poor attempt at satire and advise you to leave the jokes to someone who is entertaining or has something interesting to say.
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Old 16th January 2019, 10:46 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
"Don't be a bully or creep" is a fairly low bar to set so I don't get why people are really angry over this.

It's tricky, and the reaction is pretty visceral.

Because being a bully or a creep is pretty horrific behaviour, those of us that aren't get a trifle annoyed at the exhortations to not be what we're already not.

The inference I make is that the people making these adverts believe that the base state of being for the male is to be a bully and a creep and that we need to be reminded not to do it.

I and those that I associate with simply don't do that which we're being told not to do so could people please stop telling us not to do it.


If a man is still a total git by the time he's started shaving, he's not going to change because Gillette tell him to.

Perhaps a more productive message, in terms of reducing antisocial behaviour (but not in terms of column inches or exposure), might be "Parents, don't raise your son to be a ******"
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:03 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I'm just gonna chalk this up as an extremely poor attempt at satire and advise you to leave the jokes to someone who is entertaining or has something interesting to say.
At least you're honest enough to rule yourself out.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:13 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dann, I'm with you for the first sentence, but it really reads like you're saying that if one disagrees with the ad in any respect, that person must be a paleolithic woman-hater. Sure, having read the thread, you can't believe that.
He's really not.

It's the "boycott Gillette!" freakout crew that's highly likely to have a lot of paleolithic woman-haters among their ranks.

Gillette's probably run the math and decided those people are too small in numbers to worry about, since people (like you) who are merely annoyed by the ad won't change their/your purchasing behavior as a result of it, and it might win some brand loyalty converts among women and those who see themselves as male feminists.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:15 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Amen, and I get a closer shave when I use them.

Besides, its not a razor company's place to tell me how to be a man. That is for breweries, truck companies, and gun manufacturers
What an amazing ad. lol

Oh, capitalism, you never fail to have something for everyone.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Perhaps a more productive message, in terms of reducing antisocial behaviour (but not in terms of column inches or exposure), might be "Parents, don't raise your son to be a ******"
A more productive message is a message saying what to do. Here's an example of how to do a positive ad right:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:21 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
He's really not.

It's the "boycott Gillette!" freakout crew that's highly likely to have a lot of paleolithic woman-haters among their ranks.
You're going to have to explain to me your logic here. Why would some stupidly boycotting Gillette somehow indicate that they hate women?

A lot of posters here seem to immediately jump to the conclusion that any negative reaction to this ad means that one hates women or wants to rape them. That is a very worrying and dangerous mindset.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:21 AM   #177
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Gillette: The best child workers can get. (I don't know if this is true but thought it was funny - who am I kidding it's probably true for any mega corporation like this)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLvDPPO13K8
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:29 AM   #178
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Gillette: do as we say, not as we do.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:30 AM   #179
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My thoughts:

"men need to hold other men accountable" is a message regularly appearing in our media, and I agree with others that it gets tedious hearing it over and over, and it IS quite patronizing.

It's even further annoying when one makes the observation (as I get the feeling many many many men are doing) that this message is ONLY directed towards men, both "bad" men and "men who enable them". This message is not directed at women. Was there was a woman in that ad saying "boys will be boys"? Does anyone in real life even use that phrase? I've seen it on TV making fun of boys, but never to actually excuse terrible behavior.

Of course, we never tell women to "hold women accountable", either. Are "women" complicit in enabling paternity fraud? Abuse of children, including infanticide? No, of course not, because the majority of women do no such thing. People are getting sick of this double standard.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:35 AM   #180
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My biggest problem with the ad is that it uses caricatures of men, not real men. The bit with the two boys fighting and the suburban dads (helpfully all standing in front of a barbecue) saying, "Boys will be boys," is ludicrous. An individual man might let it go, but not a group of men.

The other thing is that the commercial is confusing; it throws too much at you too quickly. Some of the times they seem to be trying to imitate sexist old TV shows. Gee, Gillette, I never had anything to do with making sexist old television shows, but as I recall, you sponsored them.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:37 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How are the jokes inappropriate if the situation is appropriate? That's the whole point of an inappropriate joke. Not trying to be pedantic, this just caught my eye.
Good question which deserves an answer. An example of an inappropriate joke (to me) is perhaps the one about The Aristocrats. If told well it can be both very offensive and funny as hell. But probably best told at a comedy club rather than a kid's birthday party.
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Old 16th January 2019, 11:45 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Gillette: do as we say, not as we do.
Wow, the people who made that decision probably are a bunch of rapists.

Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Good question which deserves an answer. An example of an inappropriate joke (to me) is perhaps the one about The Aristocrats. If told well it can be both very offensive and funny as hell. But probably best told at a comedy club rather than a kid's birthday party.
Yeah but is a joke told at a comedy club ever inappropriate?
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:10 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I don't know, do you fit in with the silent majority, or stand up with the minority who are willing to say something? See that's the thing about the word "majority" it means "more than half", it doesn't mean "all".



I disagree.



We aren't getting a reminder every waking moment of our lives.



Do you have evidence of this "concerted effort"? If not, CT Forum is that way --->



The problem is that an awful lot of people haven't begun listening and clearly have no intention of doing so. I wonder, do you react the same way when there is an ad telling you that speeding is bad or that you should wear a seat belt?
The thing I don't get about your accusations (and that is all they are)

You have said the majority of men in your social group condone/ignore abuse.

You feel the need to preach to other men whose social groups don't have this issue, that they should do something about something that isn't there.

One would think you should kind of practice what you preach, given your circumstances, and maybe the majority of your friends wouldn't ignore it.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:15 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If a man is still a total git by the time he's started shaving, he's not going to change because Gillette tell him to.

Perhaps a more productive message, in terms of reducing antisocial behaviour (but not in terms of column inches or exposure), might be "Parents, don't raise your son to be a ******"
The ad's not aimed at selling anything to them, though - it's meant to aggravate them. The ad is meant to applaud the guys that already step up, and encourage those who fall into neither category to help out as well.

Again, this is an ad, it's meant to increase sales. Gillette doesn't care who buys their product so long as their sales increase, but they're likely thinking that they'll sell more things to some men, and many women. The fact that the knuckle-dragging guys - whether actual sexual assaulters, bullies, or just online harassers, are screaming with rage, is part of what makes it work. If Harry's wants to be the razor for guys who make Youtube videos about how Rey from Star Wars is a Mary Sue and Captain Marvel needs to smile more, and Gillette gets everyone else, I'm sure Proctor & Gamble would love that.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're going to have to explain to me your logic here. Why would some stupidly boycotting Gillette somehow indicate that they hate women?
Seems simply to me - if I say, 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, but only 10% of men are responsible." and you respond "How dare you call me a rapist!!", well, you're snitching on yourself. A more...measured response would be "Those creeps belong in jail." As I said before, if you throw a rock in a kennel, the dog that hollers is the one who got hit, and some folks are really limping around and howling over this ad.

The ad goes to pretty great lengths to show a few men (and more kids, which makes sense) being jerks, quite a few looking on. A jerk in a board room, a bunch of boys chasing a smaller boy with angry looks on their faces, a sitcom character pantomiming groping a woman in a sitcom, a kid attacking another at a BBQ. ANd then, yes starting with TYT discussing Weinstein, a series of news reports - and then Terry Crews, the stereotypically manly sexual assault victim, issuing a call to action. And then, guys telling other guys not to harass women, some not stereotypically manly guy breaks up the BBQ fight, some random guy stops the gang from beating up the smaller kid. And then, as opposed to the men looking into mirrors we saw earlier, the boys looking on at the men intervening - implying that they're looking into mirrors of what they'll be in the future.

Whew, that was a lot.

As a short film, it's pretty well done. And as an ad, it's also very well done, which is to say, pretty manipulative.
But again, if one gets "Men are all rapists" out of it, that's...very strange, and I'd be more cautious around any such person, even as a man.

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Old 16th January 2019, 12:25 PM   #185
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For whatever its worth, most of the complaints I've seen or heard from actual conservatives have leaned more toward eye rolling and ridicule than outrage.

Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Good question which deserves an answer. An example of an inappropriate joke (to me) is perhaps the one about The Aristocrats. If told well it can be both very offensive and funny as hell. But probably best told at a comedy club rather than a kid's birthday party.
Excellent example of such things because for the most part it's only told backstage at comedy clubs as the point is making as inappropriate as possible for any other setting, including the stage.

Last edited by ahhell; 16th January 2019 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:27 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry, that doesn't follow.

If you punch me in the face while telling me that theft is bad, and I tell you that I don't like what you're doing, it doesn't mean I agree with theft. I'm talking about your method of getting the message across. Your logic is completely broken.

The posters here who have spoken out about the ad are doing so because of the way in which the message is made, and the increasing frequency of similar messages, apparently presuming, like PhantomWolf does, that men in general need to be told this stuff. They are objecting to what they perceive is condescention and preachiness. Nothing in this thread, in any post, by anyone, suggests that anyone here is in favour of rape in any way, shape or form. Again, your logic needs revisiting.

A better analogy is if I just say, while sitting around, "thievery is bad," and you just decide to stand up and start yelling, "not everyone is a thief!" Then stomp off.



I might then think you have something you feel guilty about.


Overreacting to a message that isn't there is a tell.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:28 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
For whatever its worth, most of the complaints I've seen or heard from actual conservatives have leaned more toward eye rolling and ridicule than outrage.
Right, which means as an ad, it hit the mark the advertisers were going for.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:30 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Hm, I thought it was a nice ad.

Don't see what the fuss is about. Showing men standing up to sexual assault and bullying is a negative?

Mmmkay. I mean it's a little tacky to try and sell razors by latching on to the MeToo thing, but I don't think that's what the fuss is about.
I agree... but I was somewhat amused (and alarmed tbh) to see so many snowlfakes being triggered.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:36 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's tricky, and the reaction is pretty visceral.

Because being a bully or a creep is pretty horrific behaviour, those of us that aren't get a trifle annoyed at the exhortations to not be what we're already not.
But then, the message isn't aimed at you

Quote:
The inference I make is that the people making these adverts believe that the base state of being for the male is to be a bully and a creep and that we need to be reminded not to do it.
I see it as the opposite. The ad says that bully and creep are not our default settings.

Quote:
I and those that I associate with simply don't do that which we're being told not to do so could people please stop telling us not to do it.
Again, not aimed at you.


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If a man is still a total git by the time he's started shaving, he's not going to change because Gillette tell him to.
So, advertising is a multi-billion dollar industry because it doesn't work?

Or maybe it lets people who are tired of that sort of behavior know they aren't alone and its socially acceptable to say so.

Whats more likely is that Gillette saw a social trend and decided to get in front and market towards it. At least it ain't a rich white girl dismissing her black assistant to co-opt a Black Lives Matter analogue. So, hooray for low bars.

Either way, I don't see why you are so offended.

Quote:
Perhaps a more productive message, in terms of reducing antisocial behaviour (but not in terms of column inches or exposure), might be "Parents, don't raise your son to be a ******"
Yes, but you need to define ****** and also, the marketers need to hit their quota.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:36 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The inference I make is that the people making these adverts believe that the base state of being for the male is to be a bully and a creep and that we need to be reminded not to do it.

I and those that I associate with simply don't do that which we're being told not to do so could people please stop telling us not to do it.
Great for you. You can ignore the ad, it's not aimed at you. If your associates are also not feeling aimed at, then perhaps you should not seek out and choose to become sympathetic with those who do? This ad is a celebration of you and your associates, not a condemnation.

Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
My thoughts:

"men need to hold other men accountable" is a message regularly appearing in our media, and I agree with others that it gets tedious hearing it over and over, and it IS quite patronizing.

It's even further annoying when one makes the observation (as I get the feeling many many many men are doing) that this message is ONLY directed towards men, both "bad" men and "men who enable them". This message is not directed at women. Was there was a woman in that ad saying "boys will be boys"? Does anyone in real life even use that phrase? I've seen it on TV making fun of boys, but never to actually excuse terrible behavior.

Of course, we never tell women to "hold women accountable", either. Are "women" complicit in enabling paternity fraud? Abuse of children, including infanticide? No, of course not, because the majority of women do no such thing. People are getting sick of this double standard.
Women in America have been telling each other how to not be raped by men for centuries. Now that men are being told not to rape, and being told to keep their friends from raping, that's too much for your weak masculine shoulders? ('your' in the general outraged male sense, not you specifically.) Men are being encouraged to stand up and take an active interest in protecting others, I'd think that was a very masculine and positive thing. All of the negative interactions shown in the ad happen in the US every day with men just like you doing nothing about it.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:37 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
A better analogy is if I just say, while sitting around, "thievery is bad,"
That isn't what the ad is doing. It's not just saying thievery is bad, it's also saying "stop stealing". There is in fact an accusation contained within the add, not simply a statement of values.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:42 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That isn't what the ad is doing. It's not just saying thievery is bad, it's also saying "stop stealing". There is in fact an accusation contained within the add, not simply a statement of values.
The ad is mostly about the good guys. They're the proverbial stars of the show.
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Old 16th January 2019, 12:59 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Women in America have been telling each other how to not be raped by men for centuries. Now that men are being told not to rape
Men have been told not to rape for centuries as well, at least in the west.

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Men are being encouraged to stand up and take an active interest in protecting others, I'd think that was a very masculine and positive thing.
It can be. But the delivery is so ham-fisted, the situations so ridiculous and cliched, that it fails to convey that message effectively beyond the choir. It's like those really crappy anti-drug ads from the 80's.
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Old 16th January 2019, 01:00 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The ad is mostly about the good guys.
The line of zombie grilling dads suggests otherwise.
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Old 16th January 2019, 01:04 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Great for you. You can ignore the ad, it's not aimed at you. If your associates are also not feeling aimed at, then perhaps you should not seek out and choose to become sympathetic with those who do? This ad is a celebration of you and your associates, not a condemnation.



Women in America have been telling each other how to not be raped by men for centuries. Now that men are being told not to rape, and being told to keep their friends from raping, that's too much for your weak masculine shoulders? ('your' in the general outraged male sense, not you specifically.) Men are being encouraged to stand up and take an active interest in protecting others, I'd think that was a very masculine and positive thing. All of the negative interactions shown in the ad happen in the US every day with men just like you doing nothing about it.
This isn't at all analogous to what I'm talking about. Telling people how to better protect themselves is very different from telling people they need to be better and control those within "their group" to be better as well. Telling women "here's how not to get raped" (as stupid as you may think that is) isn't blaming women in general or telling all other women to stop abusing others, or placing the sole blame on women.
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Old 16th January 2019, 01:12 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Seems simply to me - if I say, 1 in 6 women are sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, but only 10% of men are responsible." and you respond "How dare you call me a rapist!!", well, you're snitching on yourself.
I know it's simple. Simple-minded, that is, because it actually doesn't follow. Again, if one is punching you in the nuts while giving you sound advice, complaining about the pain doesn't mean you think the advice is bad.

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
A better analogy is if I just say, while sitting around, "thievery is bad," and you just decide to stand up and start yelling, "not everyone is a thief!" Then stomp off.

I might then think you have something you feel guilty about.
First of all, the actual analogy should be "stop being a thief or enabling thieves". So the reaction is entirely understandable.

Second, no, absolutely not. One has NOTHING to do with the other. You're simply drawing a completely irrational conclusion. Hell, you're even proud of it.
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Old 16th January 2019, 01:35 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I know it's simple. Simple-minded, that is, because it actually doesn't follow. Again, if one is punching you in the nuts while giving you sound advice, complaining about the pain doesn't mean you think the advice is bad.
The analogy is more responding to the advise "Brush your teeth" by keeling over and holding your nuts.

What the...?

Quote:
First of all, the actual analogy should be "stop being a thief or enabling thieves". So the reaction is entirely understandable.
I fundamentally disagree, as filmmaking. The idea is that the heroes are the guys that show up in the latter half and triumph. Much like how the heroes get beat down in the second act of any film, and then rise up and win in the third. THis was designed the exact same way, as I already outlined. Standing back isn't really "enabling", but it is being passive.

Quote:
Second, no, absolutely not. One has NOTHING to do with the other. You're simply drawing a completely irrational conclusion. Hell, you're even proud of it.
I...I really don't see how you get that. One is just a general statement, the reaction takes it personally for no reason and reacts in a rage.
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Old 16th January 2019, 01:41 PM   #198
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...Seriously, I just put myself between "Guys that step up", and "Guys that kinda watch"

Okay, I get I don't live in an area where guys get shot for it anymore, so I'll do more. The end.

Still using my double-edge razor, though

Last edited by Mumbles; 16th January 2019 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 16th January 2019, 01:54 PM   #199
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I think a lot of the irritation is the implication that the good guys are in the minority. It's kind of blatant in the barbecue fight scene. The whole line of men just saying "boys will be boys" and then when the one guy breaks up the fight, the three other guys looking at him like "what are you doing?" For some of us, that doesn't mesh with our experiences. Whoever saw the fight first would have stopped it and the others would likely have followed in support.

But as an ad...pretty successful. I mean, when was the last time you thought about Gillette when you weren't standing in the razor aisle?
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:06 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Like I said, I think you need a new social group and new places to hang out.
And as I noted before, I have had a very wide net of social groups, everywhere from Blue Collar mechanics to White Collar businessmen, from Police Officers to Accountants to Engineers to Educators. From Rugby Players to Cricket Teams to Service Club Members. The fact that I have had such a wide array of interactions with vastly different groups, and yet seen the same attitudes inside each of them is why I feel I can comment more broadly.

To be honest, your comments make me think that you don't have a wide net of social groups and places that you "hang out", you just aren't willing to see it in those around you, or you live in some sort of enlightened Utopian society.

Quote:
What makes you think that your experience is typical and mine is not?
See above. From my experience through a lot of social tiers and groups, I have seen the same things. I hear about it through others, I see it when there are prominent stories in the media with big names being caught up in scandals. The Bill Cosbys, the Jerry Sanduskys, the Jimmy Savilles, the Bill O'Reillys, the Roger Alles, the Harvey Weinsteins, the Ron Carlsons, the Douglas Greenburgs, the Anthony Weiners, the Roy Moores, the Bret Kavanaughs, the Bill Clintons....

So yes, it does make me question your experiences.

Quote:
In short, why do you think your experiences are more valid and more common than mine?
All of the above, and I'll add to it, that from women that speak up about their harassment, it's clear that it's happening everywhere, so I would be absolutely be amazed if this wasn't true for the women where you are. I suggest asking them, you might get a shock.

http://everydaysexism.com/
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/author/contributor/
https://www.ihollaback.org/read-stories/
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