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Old 16th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #201
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It can be. But the delivery is so ham-fisted, the situations so ridiculous and cliched, that it fails to convey that message effectively beyond the choir. It's like those really crappy anti-drug ads from the 80's.
They learned it by watching them!
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The question was the one you just quoted. Please answer it. If I called you a rapist, would you be offended by it, and would that prove the accusation correct?
I know I quickly dealt with this before I went to bed last night, but since then I have gone back and looked at your posts before you claimed I ignored your question, and the post you claimed I ignored it was the first time you asked it, so claiming I was ignoring your question, which you had not previously asked, was thoroughly disingenuous.
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:23 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Except women don't shave their legs every/every other day, and unless they are Robin Williamsette, she is thinner, less hair on the surface error
I don't shave my face every day either.
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:30 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Once again, I don't care about your anecdotal experience. Where is your EVIDENCE?
As noted before, I am speaking of my experiences, and I think I have had a wide enough group in that to make a judgement. If you want to disagree with my assessment then fine, go for it, I'm not stopping you. I haven't been able to find actual research papers either way, so until I see evidence that my experiences are unusual, and as of yet that is far from the case, I'll accept that they are not.

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That is an answer to a different question, Wolf. Why don't you answer my actual questions?
Maybe you show stop asking leading questions then.

Quote:
Your opinion isn't worth more than mine or anyone else's. Why should I take your claim as sound, then?
I'm not demanding that you do, if you want to argue I am wrong, go for it, but you're not, you're just standing there pointing and screaming, "How dare you have such an opinion!"

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Some are, and they benefit from the oversaturation of those messages in the way I described. Sometimes, advocates for a cause are their own worst enemy.
I disagree with you.

Quote:
I'm not arguing against your contention that many men enable the dicks. I'm arguing against your contention that MOST men enable the dicks.
As far as "enable" means, stand aside and do nothing, I again, from my experiences, disagree. I find that very few men are willing to confront dickery and stand up against it. Most either have a shocked reaction, and then leave without saying anything, or just stay silent in a way that gives tacit approval to the person being a dick.

Quote:
Careful with your choice of examples, though. The movement is pretty hit-and-miss.
I'm talking the well known and known to be accurate ones. The Bill Cosbys, the Jerry Sanduskys, the Jimmy Savilles, the Bill O'Reillys, the Roger Alles, the Harvey Weinsteins, the Ron Carlsons, the Douglas Greenburgs, the Anthony Weiners, the Roy Moores, the Bret Kavanaughs, the Bill Clintons....
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:34 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm talking the well known and known to be accurate ones. The Bill Cosbys, the Jerry Sanduskys, the Jimmy Savilles, the Bill O'Reillys, the Roger Alles, the Harvey Weinsteins, the Ron Carlsons, the Douglas Greenburgs, the Anthony Weiners, the Roy Moores, the Bret Kavanaughs, the Bill Clintons....
Your list is not what you claim it to be. And for those cases on the list which are, it doesn't really point to a problem with masculinity, but with unaccountable power.
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:46 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
My questions is not irrelevant. I could ask about calling you a thief or a lawyer (same thing). The point isn't the actual accusation, but whether the reaction to it proves anything about its validity. I've made that very clear several times already and now I can only conclude that you don't want to answer it because you'd have to retract something you said before if you did.
The reason it is irrelevant is because you are attempting to personalise the question. A reaction to having a personal accusation is going to be different to a generalised group one.

Having someone personally call you a rapist is going to have a different reaction to someone calling all men rapists and you being a man, and that will be a different reaction to having that person say, "Most men are rapists," and further still having them say, "Some men are rapists."

And this is why your question is totally irrelevant. You are trying to equate the reaction to "Some men are Rapists" and "You personally are a Rapist" and that is simply not a valid comparison.

The fact that so many people seem to have been triggered at the level of "I'm being personally called a rapist" when the actual message wasn't even at the level of "Some men are rapists" is one of the amazing things about this. It reminds me of when Hillary stated that some Trump Supporters were a Basket of Deplorables and immediately all the Trump Supporters went out of their way to claim to be in that basket, instead of showing why they weren't in the part of the group being described.

I see it all the time, when a subsection of a group is addressed, and often told a specific truth, those that speak up loudest in the group, instead of denying that part of the group being spoken against instead declare solidarity with them. Just like when the parts of the Alt-Right as condemned as White Supremacists we have a US President getting up and telling us how there are great folks on both sides rather than condemning those in the group who are White Supremacists.

Having said that I think I am going to bow out of this thread now, I think that really there is little more to say or argue over that hasn't already been said by others.
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:50 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Plural..?
I'm glad you brought that up. Almost all of my acquaintances, who of course use the phrase frequently, would maintain that this refers to the 'unnatural act', you know, up the tradesman's, but I've always believed that the plural rules that out and mandates that the 'back' refers to the manner of entry, with your companion being bent forwards at the waist, and that the 'doors' analogise... well, swing doors - what are those swing doors called, the kind you get in cowboy films..? Louvre doors, those are the ones, louvre doors. Just without the slats.

Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Wow, whoosh.

Haven’t seen the ad, but it’s an ad. It’s by definition simply a play on the thoughts of its audience in order to manipulate them.

Seems to have worked
Unless you see me rushing out the store with my arms full of overpriced razors called **** like Fusion Laser Mach 99 then no, it hasn't worked.

Or are you referring to me having adopted the appropriate mindset after watching the ad? In which case, I refer you to the beginning of this post.
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Old 16th January 2019, 02:50 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your list is not what you claim it to be.
It's not a list of sexual predators?

Quote:
And for those cases on the list which are, it doesn't really point to a problem with masculinity, but with unaccountable power.
You totally missed the point being made, it's not to do with the cause of those people's actions, it was that there were people around all of them that knew what was going on and stood back and allowed it to keep going on.

Now I'm out.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:03 PM   #209
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Females by far commit the vast majority of Neonaticides.

I think it is time all women had a look in the mirror and sort your crap out.

In fact I think we need a "Lady Shave" advert created to drive the point home to the lot of you.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:03 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Gillette: do as we say, not as we do.
Oh, sweetie!
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:10 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I have no strong feeling about the commercial either way.

I like the content of the video. If it were a PSA coming from some "Organization for Masculine Morality" I'd think was great. In the context of trying to sell overpriced razors, I feel kinda pandered to, though, in a way that doesn't sit quite right with me. I've always been slightly put off by those "Choosy Moms Choose Jiff" commercials, too, though.

Manipulating people via moralizing for the purpose of a-social/antisocial capitalism is distasteful to my delicate Marxist sensibilities, I guess. LOL
Ultimately, this is what needs to be said more and more.

A company is not a person, does not have sensibilities nor free speech nor a will. And there is nothing socially redeeming about a bunch of greedy psychopaths who are willing to literally do or say whatever it takes in order to make another quick buck or manipulate all manner of social ideals and mores to boost sales.

It is just one more in a long line of corporations who are pushing this idea of consumption as activism. "Hey guys/gals/humans! We're so ******* woke! Lookit! Here! Here's us being über-woke even! So buy our stuff and celebrate all of us being so woke! Hey! You're woke too? Buy our razors to show it off! It's okay to show off how awesome you are when you buy our stuff!"

Gah.

Seriously, all this **** needs to die and fast.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:14 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Right, which means as an ad, it hit the mark the advertisers were going for.
I don't know, it got attention but will it sell razors?
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:19 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't know, it got attention but will it sell razors?
I'm not sure we'll ever know in if it was overall more effective or more counterproductive. If most conservative men are rolling their eyes more than being boycott type outraged, I think it will, though.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:20 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's not a list of sexual predators?
All of them are alleged sexual predators. Some of them are proven to be so, but not all of them.

Quote:
You totally missed the point being made, it's not to do with the cause of those people's actions, it was that there were people around all of them that knew what was going on and stood back and allowed it to keep going on.
And the people who enabled predatory behavior includes a lot of women as well. But Gillette's add doesn't include them in its message. It only targets men. If the point is to get people to not be passive or acquiesce in the face of bad behavior, why target only men? Hell, it's not even like men are Gillette's only customers, they have products specifically targeted to women, and this ad wasn't product specific.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:22 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
All of them are alleged sexual predators. Some of them are proven to be so, but not all of them.



And the people who enabled predatory behavior includes a lot of women as well. But Gillette's add doesn't include them in its message. It only targets men. If the point is to get people to not be passive or acquiesce in the face of bad behavior, why target only men? Hell, it's not even like men are Gillette's only customers, they have products specifically targeted to women, and this ad wasn't product specific.
Because their slogan here is “the best a man can get”. Women can’t usually aspire to be better men.

They are just supposed to keep their back doors well maintained.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

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Old 16th January 2019, 03:38 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The whole line of men just saying "boys will be boys" and then when the one guy breaks up the fight, the three other guys looking at him like "what are you doing?" For some of us, that doesn't mesh with our experiences.
I, too, can say that I have never attended a barbecue consisting of a line of dozens of men each cooking food on an individual grill and chanting indifference in unison.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:49 PM   #217
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What is with all this focus on "rape"? The ad doesn't say anything about rape.

The ad depicts stalky catcalling as bad behavior and promotes the image of men stepping in to stop other men from doing it, as a single example among many others of men discouraging bad behavior by other men.

Catcalling is bad because catcalling is wrong. It has nothing to do with whether men who engage in it are "rapists", or might be rapists. Catcalling in and of itself, is no longer acceptable.
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:58 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What is with all this focus on "rape"? The ad doesn't say anything about rape.

The ad depicts stalky catcalling as bad behavior and promotes the image of men stepping in to stop other men from doing it, as a single example among many others of men discouraging bad behavior by other men.

Catcalling is bad because catcalling is wrong. It has nothing to do with whether men who engage in it are "rapists", or might be rapists. Catcalling in and of itself, is no longer acceptable.
In my experience the vast majority of this behaviour comes from women. The catcalling, the innuendos, the butt grabbing, the inappropriate sexual references, pretty much exclusive to women. Indeed, I can't recall ever seeing a guy grab a woman's butt or titty, but I've had my own grabbed by women hundreds or possibly thousands of times.

But it's OK when women do it, right?
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Old 16th January 2019, 03:58 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is obviously happening here is that a commercial company has noticed a trend and is latching on to it, i.e. profiling itself as anti-traditional-masculinity ideology. It probably already knew from market research that an outdated and rather irrelevant segment of the market, i.e. the supporters of traditional masculinity ideology, would protest vehemently, which turned out to be the case. The supporters of tmi feel validated by their number and for a short while they're able to persuade themselves that they aren't a population segment on the brink of extinction.
R.I.P. Won't miss them.
It's fascinating to me that so many people apparently seem so threatened about this. The message of the advert is "Hey, you want to be the best kind of man there is? Help to put a stop to bullying and sexual harassment." Yet the message some sense is "you men are the bullies and sexual harassers... all of you."

If I see an ad depicting a man sexually harassing a woman, I don't feel like it's talking about me because I don't sexually harass women. Likewise with bullying. I don't and have never bullied anybody, so depictions of bullies don't send me into the kind of anger we're seeing around here.

And I'm not saying that those who are angry over this ad are necessarily bullies and sexual harassers. But they certainly present of the appearance of wanting to live in a world where bullies and sexual harassers are left alone to get on with it in peace and without fear of consequence. And they most certainly seem to resent the idea that it would be good if they personally helped to put a stop to such things. I find it odd.
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Old 16th January 2019, 04:07 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Indeed, I can't recall ever seeing a guy grab a woman's butt or titty, but I've had my own grabbed by women hundreds or possibly thousands of times.


I'm so sorry!

Holy crap.

What sort of context does this happen in?
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Old 16th January 2019, 04:08 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
It's fascinating to me that so many people apparently seem so threatened about this. The message of the advert is "Hey, you want to be the best kind of man there is? Help to put a stop to bullying and sexual harassment." Yet the message some sense is "you men are the bullies and sexual harassers... all of you."

If I see an ad depicting a man sexually harassing a woman, I don't feel like it's talking about me because I don't sexually harass women. Likewise with bullying. I don't and have never bullied anybody, so depictions of bullies don't send me into the kind of anger we're seeing around here.

And I'm not saying that those who are angry over this ad are necessarily bullies and sexual harassers. But they certainly present of the appearance of wanting to live in a world where bullies and sexual harassers are left alone to get on with it in peace and without fear of consequence. And they most certainly seem to resent the idea that it would be good if they personally helped to put a stop to such things. I find it odd.
So much made up horse ****, in so small a post

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Old 16th January 2019, 04:48 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So much made up horse ****, in so small a post

Are you saying that it is horse **** that men seem to be threatened by this ad?

Piers Morgan is calling it an assault on masculinity.

If that is not a man who feels threatened then he will do until one comes along.
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Old 16th January 2019, 04:51 PM   #223
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I watched it. I have no issue with the message in general but I do have a couple nitpicks:

1. If a pretty girl walks by, is a guy just not allowed to try and talk to her? I think it's possible to do so without being a creep and I don't think that it should just automatically be seen as creepy to try and talk a woman in the street.

2. Boys roughhouse. They want to; it's in their nature. I don't think you can just stop them from doing it. I did it and I'm not a violent *******.

3. I found the row of barbecuing dads a bit weird. Can't really put my finger on why but if you'll allow me a little stream-of-consciousness *Just look at those horrible men standing there, all self-satisfied in their little boys being little boys -those future aggressive bullies. Every dad wants their little boys to be tough and rough and take no gruff; just look at the row of these barbecuing ******** here. This is every barbecuing dad in the USA!* .

It just seemed a bit extra, as the kids say these days.
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Old 16th January 2019, 04:52 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Are you saying that it is horse **** that men seem to be threatened by this ad?

Piers Morgan is calling it an assault on masculinity.

If that is not a man who feels threatened then he will do until one comes along.
I haven't seen any on here

Slightly frustrated maybe, but I haven't seen any open anger or feeling threatened
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Old 16th January 2019, 04:55 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post


I'm so sorry!

Holy crap.

What sort of context does this happen in?
The dreams of men . . .
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:14 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
1. If a pretty girl walks by, is a guy just not allowed to try and talk to her? I think it's possible to do so without being a creep and I don't think that it should just automatically be seen as creepy to try and talk a woman in the street.
It's not, and it is.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:23 PM   #227
xjx388
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not, and it is.
Really?

So if I see a pretty girl sitting by herself in a hospital waiting room, it's creepy for me to walk up to her and try and chat her up?
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:35 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Really?

So if I see a pretty girl sitting by herself in a hospital waiting room, it's creepy for me to walk up to her and try and chat her up?
Ok, hospital waiting room might be a bit odd. Unless it's a free clinic, in which case your odds are probably pretty good.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:44 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Really?

So if I see a pretty girl sitting by herself in a hospital waiting room, it's creepy for me to walk up to her and try and chat her up?
Yes, it definitely is. Don't do that.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:47 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Really?

So if I see a pretty girl sitting by herself in a hospital waiting room, it's creepy for me to walk up to her and try and chat her up?
Is her husband in a coma? Is she reading The Famished Road by Ben Okri?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:02 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, it definitely is. Don't do that.
Oof, too late.

When I was a teen, I volunteered in a hospital. There was a young lady sitting in the lobby reading a book. I walked over and said, "what are you reading?" We flirted a bit and I asked for her number. We dated for a few months, so I don't think she thought it was creepy, at least.

I mean, c'mon, really? No guy here has ever just approached a woman on the street, at a store, etc?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:09 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You really, really need a new place to hang out. And some new associates. Those I hang out with are practically queuing up to do exactly you say men do not.
Who needs a new place to hang out?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:10 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oof, too late.

When I was a teen, I volunteered in a hospital. There was a young lady sitting in the lobby reading a book. I walked over and said, "what are you reading?" We flirted a bit and I asked for her number. We dated for a few months, so I don't think she thought it was creepy, at least.

I mean, c'mon, really? No guy here has ever just approached a woman on the street, at a store, etc?
Was it the Famished Road by Ben Okri? And did her husband wake up from his coma?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:18 PM   #234
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Wait....so you're trying to tell me a funeral is not an appropriate place to approach women for hook-ups? You know, once you've double-checked to make sure they're not related to you and all that?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:18 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Was it the Famished Road by Ben Okri? And did her husband wake up from his coma?
That book was written about 5 years after this event, so . . . no. As for her husband, I pulled the plug before I approached her so he never got the chance to wake up!
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:18 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oof, too late.

When I was a teen, I volunteered in a hospital. There was a young lady sitting in the lobby reading a book. I walked over and said, "what are you reading?" We flirted a bit and I asked for her number. We dated for a few months, so I don't think she thought it was creepy, at least.

I mean, c'mon, really? No guy here has ever just approached a woman on the street, at a store, etc?
I have no idea either way on this, but what's the conversational "in" with a woman at the store?
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:20 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That book was written about 5 years after this event, so . . . no. As for her husband, I pulled the plug before I approached her so he never got the chance to wake up!
Well played!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:21 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I have no strong feeling about the commercial either way.

I like the content of the video. If it were a PSA coming from some "Organization for Masculine Morality" I'd think was great. In the context of trying to sell overpriced razors, I feel kinda pandered to, though, in a way that doesn't sit quite right with me. I've always been slightly put off by those "Choosy Moms Choose Jiff" commercials, too, though.

Manipulating people via moralizing for the purpose of a-social/antisocial capitalism is distasteful to my delicate Marxist sensibilities, I guess. LOL
Pretty sure they are trying to reverse past 'manly' messages.

Though the memory I have of Gillette ads are their annual Christmas inundation which is mostly a sled or sleigh or something shaving the snow.

My comment about the kids fighting, though, is 'let kids solve their own disputes without parental interference' is the healthy thing to do unless one needs to intervene to prevent injuries.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 16th January 2019 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:22 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I have no idea either way on this, but what's the conversational "in" with a woman at the store?
Watch and learn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_G0BCs-Fo
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th January 2019, 06:25 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I have no idea either way on this, but what's the conversational "in" with a woman at the store?
Do you know where I can find extra-large condoms?
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