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Old 17th January 2019, 10:04 AM   #321
kellyb
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
In my younger days, in pubs and clubs mostly. I never complained. I used to bodybuild. Ass grabs were not an issue, titty twisting was sometimes painful but let me tell you, when a woman grabs you by the balls where you're not expecting it, that is pain that only a man can understand.
For just 1k sexual assaults, that would be once a week for 20 years...

You didn't mind being sexually assaulted as long as it wasn't painful?
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:06 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
For just 1k sexual assaults, that would be once a week for 20 years...

You didn't mind being sexually assaulted as long as it wasn't painful?
I've got a better question: is it assault if he doesn't mind?
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:08 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I've got a better question: is it assault if he doesn't mind?
Happened to me occasionally as a young, fit, man. I was generally flattered by it.
I am certain it is a different experience for a woman, however.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:13 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Happened to me occasionally as a young, fit, man. I was generally flattered by it.
I am certain it is a different experience for a woman, however.
Absolutely. It just shows that it's hard to apply the same rules to two groups that think entirely differently about these things.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:19 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So I should never take a chance because she maybe might feel uncomfortable?
I would suggest not taking a chance because it may make your wife feel uncomfortable. But that is just a reflection of my marriage, and yours may be different.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:20 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
As long as you didn’t ask her if she wanted a coffee...
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:22 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I've got a better question: is it assault if he doesn't mind?
I would say yes.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:23 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
One of the more puzzling questions.

The person to whom I was replying. I'm struggling to discern how there's any confusion there.
I was being sarcastic. How was that not obvious?
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:33 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I would say yes.
The law says no. That's part of why you can have boxing matches without somebody going to jail.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:34 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
For just 1k sexual assaults, that would be once a week for 20 years...
That's true. Looking at it that way, I admit that I probably underestimated.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You didn't mind being sexually assaulted as long as it wasn't painful?
Pretty much. I don't see anything sexual in a woman grabbing a man's chest or his ass, it's just messing around. If the man doesn't like it he can say so.
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:43 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I would suggest not taking a chance because it may make your wife feel uncomfortable. But that is just a reflection of my marriage, and yours may be different.


Fair point!


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Old 17th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The law says no. That's part of why you can have boxing matches without somebody going to jail.
Boxing matches are agreed to as consensual beforehand.
Nobody demonstrates consent to be groped by simply being at a bar.
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:21 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Pretty much. I don't see anything sexual in a woman grabbing a man's chest or his ass, it's just messing around. If the man doesn't like it he can say so.
Do you think it's also "just messing around" and fine if a man grabs a woman's ass at a bar?
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:30 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
But hey, as long as they find that full on rape is bad (depending on how drunk she was and what she was wearing), why not overlook the tiny stuff like the cat calling, the gestures, the groping in clubs and things like that. Right?
This is something that I find hard to reconcile. I would say in my social circle(s) throughout my life when guys have got together they have engaged in what I guess Trump would call 'locker room talk' that if it was published would no doubt be considered sexist, misogynist and downright objectionable. But none of them have ever suggested or hinted that they have done any of the things you mention above. And if they did I am sure they would have been told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't on.

On the other hand the women in my social circle(s) throughout my life tell me that all of these things are pretty common occurrences.

I don't quite know what that tells me but it just seems a disconnect somewhere.
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:34 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This is something that I find hard to reconcile. I would say in my social circle(s) throughout my life when guys have got together they have engaged in what I guess Trump would call 'locker room talk' that if it was published would no doubt be considered sexist, misogynist and downright objectionable. But none of them have ever suggested or hinted that they have done any of the things you mention above. And if they did I am sure they would have been told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't on.

On the other hand the women in my social circle(s) throughout my life tell me that all of these things are pretty common occurrences.

I don't quite know what that tells me but it just seems a disconnect somewhere.
Trump's "locker room talk" was bragging about actually groping women.
Is that the sort of "locker room talk" your friends engaged in?
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:37 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you think it's also "just messing around" and fine if a man grabs a woman's ass at a bar?
Depends if it's an ass-grabber's bar.
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:51 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Nope, don’t believe a word of this.
Listen, I don't agree with baron on much on these threads and I don't agree with his conclusions here, but it absolutely is not unusual for a sadly large minority of women to feel entitled to grabbing men.

For several years I would get my ass grabbed while cosplaying at conventions. You know it was a grab by the cupping. As someone who has also lived with, worked out with, is related to, and damn near did body building, it is stupidly common for women to just touch you.

Even at work, when I worked retail, middle age or older women would quite consistently just walk up and put their hands around my arm and make weird 'ooooo' sounds. Or just take my very long hair in their hands to examine it. Now, I actually am extremely physically affectionate, but I do NOT like just randomly being touched by strangers (which should be unsurprising given my history). Incidental contact is fine, but just doing it like they're entitled to it is not.

So I totally believe baron had these interactions.

What I disagree quite strongly on is that these are acceptable to the degree he indicates. I doubt he'll agree when I say a lot (but certainly not all) of this sense of entitlement to touching men is actually because of sexism towards women and towards men. Men's sexuality is 'dangerous' and 'powerful', while women's and women themselves are 'harmless' and 'passive'. That is why guys who think women doing that stuff is 'just messing around' would never accept the exact same actions from man of even smaller size than most women.
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:57 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Listen, I don't agree with baron on much on these threads and I don't agree with his conclusions here, but it absolutely is not unusual for a sadly large minority of women to feel entitled to grabbing men.
I just don't like the way Baron has called all women rapist.
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Old 17th January 2019, 11:58 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
As someone who has also lived with, worked out with, is related to, and damn near did body building, it is stupidly common for women to just touch you.
That's crazy, but I believe you. Who are these women? Female body-builders?
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:10 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's crazy, but I believe you. Who are these women? Female body-builders?
Oh very rarely. Usually audience people before or after the event.

Like with acting, there is, in my experience, a certain comradery and openness around the bodybuilders themselves. Just because of the nature of putting the event/show/etc on, you're going to accept being basically if not literally naked around each other, and accepting touching just because touching is required to get the job done. It's the context and the consent. Some bodybuilder woman giving you a hand with the oil or sliding past you might have a TON of contact with you, but that's still more acceptable than some random bodybuilder woman grabbing your ass as she passed, even though the latter is objectively less physical contact.
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:19 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oh very rarely. Usually audience people before or after the event.
So, friends and family of the bodybuilders?
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:40 PM   #342
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Just to pitch in. As a Scotsman who occasionally wears full highland dress at formal events I can report that on every single occasion bar one (a cruise) I have been sexually assaulted, exclusively by women.

Each assault consisted of at least one woman who has shoved her hand up my kilt asking the inevitable question. On every occasion I have left them in no doubt as to my feelings and they have expressed absolute surprise that I should feel offended or even assaulted. Not one has managed to make the connection about how they would feel if I did exactly the same thing to them stating that what they were doing was "only a bit of fun". More than one has make another attempt at this point to carry on the assault.

I have made a personal promise to myself that the next time it happens I will phone the police and report it as exactly what it is and that is a big deal as I don't trust the police to handle anything for me. I'm confident they won't even turn up to take a statement.

I can't comment on Barons numbers but I'm 100% with him here. Women have been at this caper under the radar since I was a young boy and I'm sick to my back teeth of them getting away with it. In no time at all on here we've been regaled with some pretty distasteful stories and this is not the first time.

All women are serial assaulters.
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:47 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just to pitch in. As a Scotsman who occasionally wears full highland dress at formal events I can report that on every single occasion bar one (a cruise) I have been sexually assaulted, exclusively by women.

Each assault consisted of at least one woman who has shoved her hand up my kilt asking the inevitable question. On every occasion I have left them in no doubt as to my feelings and they have expressed absolute surprise that I should feel offended or even assaulted. Not one has managed to make the connection about how they would feel if I did exactly the same thing to them stating that what they were doing was "only a bit of fun". More than one has make another attempt at this point to carry on the assault.

I have made a personal promise to myself that the next time it happens I will phone the police and report it as exactly what it is and that is a big deal as I don't trust the police to handle anything for me. I'm confident they won't even turn up to take a statement.

I can't comment on Barons numbers but I'm 100% with him here. Women have been at this caper under the radar since I was a young boy and I'm sick to my back teeth of them getting away with it. In no time at all on here we've been regaled with some pretty distasteful stories and this is not the first time.

All women are serial assaulters.
Now, hold on a minute. Maybe it's just British girls who are oversexed? Or maybe they're all from Essex?*



*Isn't that the town where all the girls are said to be a bit "Cor, blimey!"? Or did I get that wrong?
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:53 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So, friends and family of the bodybuilders?
Presumably. I don't have a way to actually know that.

I've only been to amateur stuff, and I've never been to an event that didn't have a friend or family member in it. I expect most of the audience at that kind of event is a friend or family member of someone competing.

I should note, because I'm getting the vibe that this might not be clear, that at the events themselves were not by any means the most common place to just be grabbed.
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:57 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Presumably. I don't have a way to actually know that.

I've only been to amateur stuff, and I've never been to an event that didn't have a friend or family member in it. I expect most of the audience at that kind of event is a friend or family member of someone competing.

I should note, because I'm getting the vibe that this might not be clear, that at the events themselves were not by any means the most common place to just be grabbed.
If I'm understanding you, it sounds like both body building culture and cosplay culture are really bad about women sexually assaulting men.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:03 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Now, hold on a minute. Maybe it's just British girls who are oversexed? Or maybe they're all from Essex?*
Ha ha ha, my story of my multiple sexual assaults is a stepping stone to some humour?

Would you respond in a similar fashion if one of our female members related a tale that on multiple occasions they had men thrust their hands up their skirts?


Quote:
*Isn't that the town where all the girls are said to be a bit "Cor, blimey!"?
I don't know if all Essex girls are whores. Is that what you meant?

I can tell you all assaults (around a dozen or so) have been perpetrated by Americans, English, Scottish in the main.

Quote:
Or did I get that wrong?
Elagabalus, you are getting a whole lot wrong in your post.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:12 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
If I'm understanding you, it sounds like both body building culture and cosplay culture are really bad about women sexually assaulting men.
It’s likely a sense of entitlement. ‘This person is in costume for me! Why shouldn’t I enjoy it?’

I’ve been groped a few times while in costume. I try to discourage it, but that can be difficult while posing for photos. I do appreciate the ones who ask if they can hug me (I usually say no. It’s an expensive costume). But there are those who don’t ask.

Many conventions now have signage that states ‘cosplay is not consent’. It seems to help.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Ha ha ha, my story of my multiple sexual assaults is a stepping stone to some humour?
On the one hand, I can see why it'd be offensive. On the other, offensive humour is the best humour.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:21 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What I disagree quite strongly on is that these are acceptable to the degree he indicates. I doubt he'll agree when I say a lot (but certainly not all) of this sense of entitlement to touching men is actually because of sexism towards women and towards men. Men's sexuality is 'dangerous' and 'powerful', while women's and women themselves are 'harmless' and 'passive'. That is why guys who think women doing that stuff is 'just messing around' would never accept the exact same actions from man of even smaller size than most women.
I don't agree or disagree, because I've never analysed it in any depth. The fact is that I personally wasn't bothered (aside from a handful of occasions and even then it was more of an eye-roll than a protest). I do maintain that it's not a sexual thing, at least in my experience*, rather a joke that some people find objectionable and some don't. What I'm saying is that a man can make his own decisions and if he doesn't like it he can say so.

I'll also say that my last assertion applies primarily to social occasions, pubs, clubs, etc. In the workplace or at random in the street, for example, that would be unacceptable.


* What I mean here is that it's rarely a come-on. It doesn't mean anything. If you took it to mean that you'd be laughed at for sure.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I can't comment on Barons numbers but I'm 100% with him here. Women have been at this caper under the radar since I was a young boy and I'm sick to my back teeth of them getting away with it. In no time at all on here we've been regaled with some pretty distasteful stories and this is not the first time.
You've never seen anything until you've pushed through a hen night in Blackpool to get to the bar. It's like being in a war, I've literally had bruises the next day.

Last edited by baron; 17th January 2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
If I'm understanding you, it sounds like both body building culture and cosplay culture are really bad about women sexually assaulting men.
From my perspective there was no bodybuilding culture. It was simply the fact I was a big guy amongst women who were, let's say, in high spirits.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:25 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yeah I know I said I was out and this will be it. I just thought that of the 11 comments on this video, the top one just sort of put an exclamation mark on this thread for me.

It reads....



Yup, pretty much says it all.
Well, hold on . . . if I'm an actor and I get cast in a movie that features a sex scene with a beautiful woman that I'm attracted to . . . now, I will be professional and I wouldn't ever let anyone know, but I would be lying if I said I had no feelings on the subject.

Even today, in interviews with actors (especially females, I've noticed), the interviewers always ask stuff like, "who was the best kisser?" Mostly, the answers tend to focus on the physical aspects (they have bad breath, she has soft lips) because actors are professionals. But many actors who work together acting as a romantic couple have enough chemistry that they become real life couples. So obviously, they enjoyed their kisses and romantic scenes.

We are people. We enjoy sex. I see no problem with acknowledging this.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:26 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
On the one hand, I can see why it'd be offensive. On the other, offensive humour is the best humour.
By and large I don't disagree but can you see the double standard at play?

I might be wrong but I'll bet nobody has ever followed up a sexual assault story submitted by one of our female members with a joke about it.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:28 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I might be wrong but I'll bet nobody has ever followed up a sexual assault story submitted by one of our female members with a joke about it.
I apologise for my omission. Next time, I promise...
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just to pitch in. As a Scotsman who occasionally wears full highland dress at formal events I can report that on every single occasion bar one (a cruise) I have been sexually assaulted, exclusively by women.

Each assault consisted of at least one woman who has shoved her hand up my kilt asking the inevitable question. On every occasion I have left them in no doubt as to my feelings and they have expressed absolute surprise that I should feel offended or even assaulted. Not one has managed to make the connection about how they would feel if I did exactly the same thing to them stating that what they were doing was "only a bit of fun". More than one has make another attempt at this point to carry on the assault.

I have made a personal promise to myself that the next time it happens I will phone the police and report it as exactly what it is and that is a big deal as I don't trust the police to handle anything for me. I'm confident they won't even turn up to take a statement.

I can't comment on Barons numbers but I'm 100% with him here. Women have been at this caper under the radar since I was a young boy and I'm sick to my back teeth of them getting away with it. In no time at all on here we've been regaled with some pretty distasteful stories and this is not the first time.

All women are serial assaulters.
???
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Ha ha ha, my story of my multiple sexual assaults is a stepping stone to some humour?

Would you respond in a similar fashion if one of our female members related a tale that on multiple occasions they had men thrust their hands up their skirts?




I don't know if all Essex girls are whores. Is that what you meant?

I can tell you all assaults (around a dozen or so) have been perpetrated by Americans, English, Scottish in the main.



Elagabalus, you are getting a whole lot wrong in your post.
Apologies. In my defense, however, you did end with this:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
...All women are serial assaulters.
Which is quite an all encompassing group and considering that both you and baron are from the UK I was merely inquiring if, perhaps, this might be a UK thing and, therefore, not all women.

And, yes, if a female poster here said that all men are serial assaulters I would expect that sentiment to be questioned rather fervently by others here, just as it has been in this thread.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #356
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At the very least, that the discussion has shifted into the same old "#notallmen/women are capable of bad behavior too, why doesn't anyone lecture them" groove supports my theory that the idea this outrage was solely about Gillette being the messenger as opposed to the actual message itself was, in fact, a weak pretense.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:47 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Trump's "locker room talk" was bragging about actually groping women.
Is that the sort of "locker room talk" your friends engaged in?
No. As I said, there was never any talk or confession of actually doing such things and I don't personally have any reason to believe that they ever did such things but a lot of talk of who what where when why and how they would enjoy doing things given the chance (those things not including sexual assault I should add).
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:03 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Listen, I don't agree with baron on much on these threads and I don't agree with his conclusions here, but it absolutely is not unusual for a sadly large minority of women to feel entitled to grabbing men.

For several years I would get my ass grabbed while cosplaying at conventions. You know it was a grab by the cupping. As someone who has also lived with, worked out with, is related to, and damn near did body building, it is stupidly common for women to just touch you.

Even at work, when I worked retail, middle age or older women would quite consistently just walk up and put their hands around my arm and make weird 'ooooo' sounds. Or just take my very long hair in their hands to examine it. Now, I actually am extremely physically affectionate, but I do NOT like just randomly being touched by strangers (which should be unsurprising given my history). Incidental contact is fine, but just doing it like they're entitled to it is not.

So I totally believe baron had these interactions.

What I disagree quite strongly on is that these are acceptable to the degree he indicates. I doubt he'll agree when I say a lot (but certainly not all) of this sense of entitlement to touching men is actually because of sexism towards women and towards men. Men's sexuality is 'dangerous' and 'powerful', while women's and women themselves are 'harmless' and 'passive'. That is why guys who think women doing that stuff is 'just messing around' would never accept the exact same actions from man of even smaller size than most women.
I don't believe those of us calling baron's claims less than credible were saying women never grope. It was the volume that was unlikely and claiming he was groped hundreds of times while never seeing a woman groped by any men.

If women grope men at Cosplay events I can see that depending on the costumes a man is wearing. And I said if baron was a male stripper, maybe.

But without the exception of specific circumstances, his claim was not credible.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:04 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
???
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Apologies. In my defense, however, you did end with this:



Which is quite an all encompassing group and considering that both you and baron are from the UK I was merely inquiring if, perhaps, this might be a UK thing and, therefore, not all women.

And, yes, if a female poster here said that all men are serial assaulters I would expect that sentiment to be questioned rather fervently by others here, just as it has been in this thread.
It's given you both pause I see and that being the case, the assertion has done it's work. It's something that is bandied about constantly with regard to men, so what's good for the goose.....

My kilt story is not the only sordid tales of assault I could give you. I could tell you about two female staff members from separate employments who harassed me for sex, one even going to the extent of setting up a poorly executed smear campaign on my then wife in the hope that I would leave her and become available. I could tell you, like Baron and tyr_13, about the myriad gropes, squeezes and wholly inappropriate comments and suggestions I've encountered, even as a young underage boy. If I sat and thought about it I could certainly fill a few pages of A4.

Already we have one female poster seeming to attempt to ever so slightly marginalise the problem to a subset of women. I hope I'm reading that wrong.
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Old 17th January 2019, 02:21 PM   #360
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't believe those of us calling baron's claims less than credible were saying women never grope. It was the volume that was unlikely and claiming he was groped hundreds of times while never seeing a woman groped by any men.

If women grope men at Cosplay events I can see that depending on the costumes a man is wearing. And I said if baron was a male stripper, maybe.

But without the exception of specific circumstances, his claim was not credible.
I don't know about the volumes and numbers. But there is a general narrative that a man touching a woman is going to be unwelcome while a woman touching a man is doing him a favour.

I'm trying to think back to my kilt wearing experiences... I don't think I was ever groped but I was certainly asked if I was wearing underwear. I imagine the same question directed to a woman would earn me a slap at least 8 times put of 10.

ETA: I was reminded of this news story https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-garments.html

I wonder what the reaction would be if a mostly female wait staff had to change their outfits to avoid being harassed?

But I will also admit it never bothered me. And I doubt being touched would have either. Can't say for sure though.
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