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Old 21st January 2019, 01:12 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
...Now, unlike some here, I do not approve of feeding someone to an alligator, or prison violence, or beating someone to within an inch of their life once someone is restrained, but I think it is more than reasonable for some exercise of violence to be used in self-defence.
How absolutely enlightened you sound. Self-defense how?
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:33 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
How absolutely enlightened you sound. Self-defense how?
Do you know what went on after he caught the creepy dude that everyone else doesn't?

Because the police, I would think know more than any of us on here and they seem pretty satisfied it was self defence.
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:58 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
How absolutely enlightened you sound. Self-defense how?
Thanks!

He’s apprehending a criminal involved in committing a crime against his family. That counts as far as I am concerned.
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Old 21st January 2019, 03:08 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It depends. Am I the state, trying to determine whether I have a lawful justification for infringing on his rights?

Or am I a private citizen, with a trespasser on my property?

Because the state does indeed have to follow a process. But private citizens are pretty much left to their own judgement in such matters as labeling people.

You're a poster on the internet.

Not trying to be flippant, that's the point of view that was being discussed. I accept, at the time, believing the apparently obvious and apprehending the guy. I don't accept, but do understand roughing him up a bit. I entirely don't accept that, after the fact, we can simply dismiss the excuse. It might be valid. I think that's vanishingly unlikely, but weird things happen.
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Old 21st January 2019, 07:25 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
He gave him a black eye. In only one eye. All of Cassidy's injuries can be explained with one or two punches, tops. Beckham very clearly didn't work him over; and given that he immediately stopped and stood up when the police arrived he clearly wasn't in some kind of rage fit either.
You know, I was getting ready to do the line-by-line thing, when I realized what you are doing. Well played, you had me going.

Although I am going to steal 'it was only one eye' for later use
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:40 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Now, unlike some here, I do not approve of feeding someone to an alligator, <snip>


Nor I.
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Old 21st January 2019, 02:58 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Now, unlike some here, I do not approve of feeding someone to an alligator, <snip>


Nor I.
Especially if they're wearing artificial fibres. It plays havoc with their teeth
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Old 21st January 2019, 06:14 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Your response to my example, was not a good-faith effort. I posted a video of a man whom it can be clearly and quite instantly discerned is masturbating, despite the fact that his hand and his genitals are not directly visible. Your reply was "The father stood around for several minutes watching the accused peeping and stroking it, did he?", which is nonsensical and dishonest given that the very video I linked as an example isn't even "several minutes" long in its entirety, let alone that you only have to watch a few seconds of it at most to see what's going on.
The video you posted was well longer than five seconds though and that's my point. It took a good minute or so to verify that's what the blanket bus guy was doing. In reality, it was a matter of a few seconds at most at what Beckham thought he saw.


Quote:
I posted the video as a direct response to your suggestion that the fact the man's hands were in his pants meant that the father would not have been able to reliably determine whether the man was fondling himself (i.e., "might've had his hands in his pockets") - an allegation which in the same post you call "central to the issue". The video has a point: with this particular activity, you do not need to see hands on body parts to know what's going on under the fabric. You CAN reliably determine with high confidence that a person in that set of circumstances is engaging in that activity.
Not in a few seconds. Not in a few seconds, at night, at a distance, with movement by both parties.




Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Uhhh....facts not in evidence, right there at the end. We have absolutely no idea what was said or not said between the two men.
"Facts not in evidence" is kind of rich coming from you.



Quote:
But assuming for a moment, as I suspect most will, that Beckham did nothing except talk with his fists when he finally caught up to Cassidy - the whole reason Cassidy had to be chased and subdued to begin with was because when initially spotted and called out by Beckham, he did not take the opportunity of the moment to even attempt an excuse, but rather immediately turned and ran away. Actions speak, and this particular action would seem to say "I've just been caught doing something I know is wrong". Such a non-verbal statement would do nothing but corroborate Beckham's assessment of what had been going on.
Sure, he was peeping. He was caught peeping and ran away. Anything further than that doesn't have the evidence required in a court of law to support the felony he's been charged with.

I can pretty much guarantee that he'll be convicted of it anyway and to hell with the petty little nuances as long as some poor schmuck gets beat up and jailed for years. Especially if he's mentally ill. Gotta have no excuse for those types, after all.


Quote:
But this seems to me to be a specious line of reasoning. Why does Beckham need to ask Cassidy to "explain" why he was masturbating before deciding what to do about it?
You don't know he was masturbating. You have a suspicion and are fine with that. Great.



Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's a good guide to what a reasonable person's feelings and responses would be. Yes, he could "just" be a peeping tom, but he could have been a stalker working himself up to a rape.
Or a kidnapper even. Or a serial killer.


Quote:
It is perfectly reasonable for a parent to think the worst in such a situation and to take immediate action.
No it isn't. This is the same exact problem that we have when dealing with cops who murder innocent people — we're elevating feelings and hunches well over facts and probabilities.



Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'd say that the state has a monopoly on justice.

In the UK and US people have a right to self defence, which also includes their loved ones.
True. What does that have to do with this case?



Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wouldn't.

State justice is the solution of last resort between people who can't resolve their differences privately. Not a be-all and end-all of justice.


I'd say everyone has a right to self defense, whether the state recognizes it or not. And self-defense is exactly the kind of private justice that falsifies the claim that the state has a monopoly on justice.
Where was the threat of immediate harm?



Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
For those talking about trials or due process, in certain circumstances, the police can shoot a fleeing felon in the US. No due process.
You're stating this as if it's applicable in this case. It isn't.



Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
There's nothing like that in the police report, as far as I can tell. Beckham was not making a citizen's arrest. He was detaining a person he caught peeping in his daughter's window.
Earlier you claimed he was making a citizen's arrest. Now you're saying he didn't. Why the change?


Quote:
That person chose to fight with Beckham. Beckham defended himself.
Running away from Beckham is now "cho[osing] to fight with Beckham?" LOL



Quote:
When the police arrived, the two were on the ground. Beckham let Cassidy go when the police intervened.

Cassidy ran from the police and fell down, and the police caught up to him and arrested him.
So?


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Don't forget that this is about somebody being caught red handed and reasonable force is permissible when making an arrest. Apparently Florida also allows citizens to use force to make an arrest.

Whether the force used by the home owner was excessive or not can't be discerned by the information given.
Sure it can. Breaking bones is a pretty good indicator that the force used was too much especially considering things like athletic ability and age and so on.



Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
He gave him a black eye. In only one eye.
Only a black eye is a bruise. He had several fractures around the eye socket. That's well more than a just a black eye.



Quote:
All of Cassidy's injuries can be explained with one or two punches, tops. Beckham very clearly didn't work him over; and given that he immediately stopped and stood up when the police arrived he clearly wasn't in some kind of rage fit either.
That's... good... I suppose but still doesn't mitigate the fact that what force was used was too much.

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Old 21st January 2019, 10:52 PM   #209
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I think some people either haven't heard of the police report, or they apparently don't believe it.

I assumed he made a citizen's arrest until better info came along about what happened.

I can't find a specific citizen's arrest law for Florida.

Cassidy will have a lawyer and he will have a fair chance to tell his side of the story.

As a transient, he may not even show up for the trial. His bail is quite low.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 21st January 2019, 11:17 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
You don't know he was masturbating. You have a suspicion and are fine with that. Great.
Beckham had that suspicion. Whether you think it was justified or not while reading about it afterwards and using your imagination, Beckham was there at the time and observed, and became convinced that was what was going on. So since for the sake of this point we're putting ourselves in the shoes of a person in that position - what is this bizarre insistence that "when you catch him, you should give him the opportunity to explain himself"? If you are completely convinced by your own eyes that the man was masturbating, what is left to explain? What could he possibly say that he had really been doing, with his pants loose and partially down, and his hands in the front of them "making a motion consistent with masturbation" while angling around for a better view through your daughter's bedroom window, that's going to give you pause and make you consider that you might've been mistaken and this is all just some innocent misunderstanding?


Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure it can. Breaking bones is a pretty good indicator that the force used was too much especially considering things like athletic ability and age and so on.

Only a black eye is a bruise. He had several fractures around the eye socket. That's well more than a just a black eye.
This here is just silly. Beckham is, or was, an athlete, so he is capable of some pretty amazing things more like as not; but the man doesn't have x-ray vision. When you punch someone in the face, you might break their nose but you also might not, with what would seem to you to be the exact same punch. You may give them an orbital fracture, or you may not. You, while standing there, have no way of knowing if this happens. Visibly, Cassidy in his booking photo has a decidedly mild black eye. That's all that's within Beckham's capability to discern he had given Cassidy. And, obviously he was happy to settle for that, because I think it's hard to argue that if Beckham had really been set on breaking bones, Cassidy would have a heck of a lot more than two fractures that a doctor declared didn't even need treatment.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 12:31 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Beckham had that suspicion. Whether you think it was justified or not while reading about it afterwards and using your imagination, Beckham was there at the time and observed, and became convinced that was what was going on. So since for the sake of this point we're putting ourselves in the shoes of a person in that position - what is this bizarre insistence that "when you catch him, you should give him the opportunity to explain himself"? If you are completely convinced by your own eyes that the man was masturbating, what is left to explain? What could he possibly say that he had really been doing, with his pants loose and partially down, and his hands in the front of them "making a motion consistent with masturbation" while angling around for a better view through your daughter's bedroom window, that's going to give you pause and make you consider that you might've been mistaken and this is all just some innocent misunderstanding?

The problem isn't that it's not reasonable to think that a private citizen can't make that judgement some of the time, and make it well. The problem is that we as a society shouldn't be giving private citizens the power to make that judgement and enforce it, themselves.

Rather they can testify in court and the court can decide what should be done about the actions of that other individual.

I'll be honest now. I don't really think this. In truth I am happy that Beckham punched the guy. But I do that that there is a discussion to be had about how and when we as a society should trust private citizens to implement violent justice toward each other.

Note that self-defence is different from "justice" here, and I think we can all agree that self-defence is necessary whether or not we think that people should be able to throw a punch or two at what they deem to be criminals when they aren't in danger.

Restraining a criminal is also another matter and may be a good justification for the violence in this case. But I think many consider the violence to have been justified even if it wasn't necessary in restraining him. That's the issue that I think is meaningful because basically I agree but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to square that agreement with my views about the how we should view people's violence toward each other.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:10 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Beckham had that suspicion. Whether you think it was justified or not while reading about it afterwards and using your imagination, Beckham was there at the time and observed, and became convinced that was what was going on. So since for the sake of this point we're putting ourselves in the shoes of a person in that position - what is this bizarre insistence that "when you catch him, you should give him the opportunity to explain himself"? If you are completely convinced by your own eyes that the man was masturbating, what is left to explain? What could he possibly say that he had really been doing, with his pants loose and partially down, and his hands in the front of them "making a motion consistent with masturbation" while angling around for a better view through your daughter's bedroom window, that's going to give you pause and make you consider that you might've been mistaken and this is all just some innocent misunderstanding?




This here is just silly. Beckham is, or was, an athlete, so he is capable of some pretty amazing things more like as not; but the man doesn't have x-ray vision. When you punch someone in the face, you might break their nose but you also might not, with what would seem to you to be the exact same punch. You may give them an orbital fracture, or you may not. You, while standing there, have no way of knowing if this happens. Visibly, Cassidy in his booking photo has a decidedly mild black eye. That's all that's within Beckham's capability to discern he had given Cassidy. And, obviously he was happy to settle for that, because I think it's hard to argue that if Beckham had really been set on breaking bones, Cassidy would have a heck of a lot more than two fractures that a doctor declared didn't even need treatment.
Out of curiosity, suppose when the orbit was fractured a bone fragment penetrated the brain and either killed him or resulted in severe brain damage, would that change your mind as to whether the level of force was OK or not?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 03:18 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Out of curiosity, suppose when the orbit was fractured a bone fragment penetrated the brain and either killed him or resulted in severe brain damage, would that change your mind as to whether the level of force was OK or not?
Out of curiosity, suppose when the girl putting clothes on saw the bloke, freaked out, went to run out of her room, tripped and hit the corner of a dresser, fracturing her skull, which entered her brain and she died, would that change your mind as to whether the peeping Tom was harmless or not?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 04:52 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Out of curiosity, suppose when the girl putting clothes on saw the bloke, freaked out, went to run out of her room, tripped and hit the corner of a dresser, fracturing her skull, which entered her brain and she died, would that change your mind as to whether the peeping Tom was harmless or not?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 05:10 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Out of curiosity, suppose when the orbit was fractured a bone fragment penetrated the brain and either killed him or resulted in severe brain damage, would that change your mind as to whether the level of force was OK or not?

If the beating was shown to be well beyond what was required to apprehend the fellow (and, at this stage, it seems that it actually wasn't, I think.), then that's felony murder, isn't it?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 06:05 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The problem isn't that it's not reasonable to think that a private citizen can't make that judgement some of the time, and make it well. The problem is that we as a society shouldn't be giving private citizens the power to make that judgement and enforce it, themselves.

Rather they can testify in court and the court can decide what should be done about the actions of that other individual.

I'll be honest now. I don't really think this. In truth I am happy that Beckham punched the guy. But I do that that there is a discussion to be had about how and when we as a society should trust private citizens to implement violent justice toward each other.

Note that self-defence is different from "justice" here, and I think we can all agree that self-defence is necessary whether or not we think that people should be able to throw a punch or two at what they deem to be criminals when they aren't in danger.

Restraining a criminal is also another matter and may be a good justification for the violence in this case. But I think many consider the violence to have been justified even if it wasn't necessary in restraining him. That's the issue that I think is meaningful because basically I agree but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to square that agreement with my views about the how we should view people's violence toward each other.
+1

The issue is that if we support a little bone breaking when the private citizen is right, what do we do when he is wrong? How do we treat the dad who breaks the face of a meter reader doing his job? Evaluating each case by case is a recipe for unequal enforcement.

My work puts me in empty houses at all hours. In some states (not mine), a neighbor could treat me as a prowler and shoot me. The Guyger/apartment thread shows how badly things can go when this happens (legitimate resident minding his own business shot dead). So how much leash for on-the-spot punishment should be legally afforded?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 06:16 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Out of curiosity, suppose when the orbit was fractured a bone fragment penetrated the brain and either killed him or resulted in severe brain damage, would that change your mind as to whether the level of force was OK or not?
*You have received a warning for presenting alternative universe fan fic hypotheticals. The poster who normally would insult and ridicule you for this has missed this post.*
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:17 AM   #218
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While not advocating for extra-judicial beatings, I'm going to write this one off as within the allowances of good faith error on the part of the protective father.

I am of the opinion, purely from my own moral reasoning and nothing to do with legal precedent, that some leeway ought to be extended to those finding themselves in physical confrontations not of their own making. I am sympathetic and willing to be generous for someone minding their own business and suddenly finding themselves in high stress physical altercation. This guy didn't create this situation and, if in the heat of the moment, happens to use more force than is really necessary, I'm willing to not really care about it. I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback a victim protecting themselves unless it is truly egregious.

Exactly how much leeway is a matter of discretion and context. A couple good cracks to the face to apprehend a fleeing, resisting sexual prowler seems acceptable.

The courts don't exist to make judgement on every possible criminal matter. Law enforcement discretion and judicial discretion are important qualities. Trying to decide if the first or second or third punch was one too many seems like small potatoes. Somewhere out there someone is jay walking, but I'm not going to get animated about this injustice. Such is life.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:28 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Out of curiosity, suppose when the orbit was fractured a bone fragment penetrated the brain and either killed him or resulted in severe brain damage, would that change your mind as to whether the level of force was OK or not?
Beckham would simply claim that Cassidy was fighting with him as he tried to restrain him, and he had to defend himself from Cassidy.

Since it is in the police report that the two were fighting when police arrived, and that Beckham disengaged when the police arrived, and that Cassidy then ran, it would likely not change anything about the case.

Beckham's story still fits what was observed.

We also have in the police report that when Cassidy ran, he fell. That could have resulted some of the facial injuries.

I can't imagine a prosecutor pressing charges even if Cassidy died from a punch.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:30 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
While not advocating for extra-judicial beatings, I'm going to write this one off as within the allowances of good faith error on the part of the protective father.

I am of the opinion, purely from my own moral reasoning and nothing to do with legal precedent, that some leeway ought to be extended to those finding themselves in physical confrontations not of their own making. I am sympathetic and willing to be generous for someone minding their own business and suddenly finding themselves in high stress physical altercation. This guy didn't create this situation and, if in the heat of the moment, happens to use more force than is really necessary, I'm willing to not really care about it. I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback a victim protecting themselves unless it is truly egregious.

Exactly how much leeway is a matter of discretion and context. A couple good cracks to the face to apprehend a fleeing, resisting sexual prowler seems acceptable.

The courts don't exist to make judgement on every possible criminal matter. Law enforcement discretion and judicial discretion are important qualities. Trying to decide if the first or second or third punch was one too many seems like small potatoes. Somewhere out there someone is jay walking, but I'm not going to get animated about this injustice. Such is life.
But the problem comes up if Cassidy were a maintenance worker tending to the common area who fled because some guy starts screaming at him and chasing him down. We can't excuse the beating because Beckham was right in determining that Cassidy was a peeper. Not everyone will be right in such a situation. If it was your eye socket fractured, would you be so caviler in allowing the civilian to break up people he suspected of misdemeanors? We can't really advocate acceptable behavior from the rear view mirror; drunk drivers who make it home still committed a crime that was not okay.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:33 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But the problem comes up if Cassidy were a maintenance worker tending to the common area who fled because some guy starts screaming at him and chasing him down. We can't excuse the beating because Beckham was right in determining that Cassidy was a peeper. Not everyone will be right in such a situation. If it was your eye socket fractured, would you be so caviler in allowing the civilian to break up people he suspected of misdemeanors? We can't really advocate acceptable behavior from the rear view mirror; drunk drivers who make it home still committed a crime that was not okay.
Citizen's arrest is a risky proposition, as citizens don't get the absurd benefits that police do when it comes to using force and honest mistakes. Misidentifying the meter reader and beating him into submission would be a crime, not so if they were a prowler. A lawyer would probably not recommend making a citizen's arrest given the liabilities.

Whether or not it is generally prudent for someone to make a citizen's arrest is a different question than the specific incident in the OP.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:40 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Citizen's arrest is a risky proposition, as citizens don't get the absurd benefits that police do when it comes to using force and honest mistakes. Misidentifying the meter reader and beating him into submission would be a crime, not so if they were a prowler. A lawyer would probably not recommend making a citizen's arrest given the liabilities.
Citizens arrest carries the requirement that you notify the suspect that you are doing so and he understands that. Beckham did not claim to do so. He pretty brazenly claimed to be teaching him a lesson (had a good conversation, he won't be doing this on this side of town again, etc). This is a couple steps to the side of self-defense or citizen's arrest. This was unapologetic vigilantism.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 07:57 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Citizens arrest carries the requirement that you notify the suspect that you are doing so and he understands that. Beckham did not claim to do so. He pretty brazenly claimed to be teaching him a lesson (had a good conversation, he won't be doing this on this side of town again, etc). This is a couple steps to the side of self-defense or citizen's arrest. This was unapologetic vigilantism.
I don't see any requirement to notify or for a fleeing criminal to understand. Common law is pretty vague on what is required, with the only element being that a person witnesses another committing a crime and apprehends them to surrender to the police. If you have any citation for requiring some special notice given by the citizen or any other specifics, kindly provide them.

I don't really see blusterous talk after the fact as an explicit confession of criminal intent or vigilantism. Reasonable force may have resulted in injury for the fleeing prowler, and the homeowner may brag about causing that injury afterwards. He may even frame it in a narrative of "got what he deserved", but that could easily be a post-hoc narrative. Just because it is distasteful, doesn't mean it is criminal.

Short of some pretty compelling evidence (say, a video) of the homeowner going well beyond what is reasonable, I think it would be hard to make a case here for such minor injury. Dude got tackled and punched a couple times by a very strong man. Again, small potatoes.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 08:11 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
He pretty brazenly claimed to be teaching him a lesson (had a good conversation, he won't be doing this on this side of town again, etc).
Was Beckham implying that his "conversation" with Cassidy would prevent him from repeating the crime?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 08:22 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Was Beckham implying that his "conversation" with Cassidy would prevent him from repeating the crime?
Well, Beckham said that 'he won't be doing that on this side of town again' after that 'good conversation' they had. I really can't imagine a more swaggering way of euphamizing that he taught him a lesson. That's why all these claims of self-defense and accidentally fracturing his face are falling a little flat. Beckham was bragging.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 08:31 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, Beckham said that 'he won't be doing that on this side of town again' after that 'good conversation' they had. I really can't imagine a more swaggering way of euphamizing that he taught him a lesson. That's why all these claims of self-defense and accidentally fracturing his face are falling a little flat. Beckham was bragging.
Yes, he is bragging.

I fail to see his bad-taste chest-thumping as evidence of deliberately causing injury unreasonably exceeding that needed to apprehend the prowler.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 08:39 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, Beckham said that 'he won't be doing that on this side of town again' after that 'good conversation' they had. I really can't imagine a more swaggering way of euphamizing that he taught him a lesson. That's why all these claims of self-defense and accidentally fracturing his face are falling a little flat. Beckham was bragging.
If a "conversation" is all that is necessary to prevent criminals from doing more crime then I want my police force to have these conversations with criminals.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 08:43 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, he is bragging.

I fail to see his bad-taste chest-thumping as evidence of deliberately causing injury unreasonably exceeding that needed to apprehend the prowler.
I see his size, musculature, and work experience as evidence that he could overpower damn near anyone without giving them so much as a scratch, should he choose. I see him as having chose not to do so, and being quite open about it.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 08:45 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, Beckham said that 'he won't be doing that on this side of town again' after that 'good conversation' they had. I really can't imagine a more swaggering way of euphamizing that he taught him a lesson. That's why all these claims of self-defense and accidentally fracturing his face are falling a little flat. Beckham was bragging.
Hypothetical:

Mugger approaches victim with a knife. Victim produces gun and shoots the mugger. Victim mocks mugger as he bleeds to death on the sidewalk. Later, victim publishes video of himself dancing on the mugger's grave.

Victim's gloating and bad taste is still irrelevant to the use of force legality. After the fact gloating and schadenfreude is largely irrelevant.
End hypothetical

Just because the man is happy that the prowler was injured during his apprehension, that doesn't really prove that the man intentionally used force he knew was unnecessary or unreasonable at the time. More evidence of intentional excessive force is needed and unlikely to surface, even if it did occur.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 09:10 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hypothetical:

Mugger approaches victim with a knife. Victim produces gun and shoots the mugger. Victim mocks mugger as he bleeds to death on the sidewalk. Later, victim publishes video of himself dancing on the mugger's grave.

Victim's gloating and bad taste is still irrelevant to the use of force legality. After the fact gloating and schadenfreude is largely irrelevant.
End hypothetical

Just because the man is happy that the prowler was injured during his apprehension, that doesn't really prove that the man intentionally used force he knew was unnecessary or unreasonable at the time. More evidence of intentional excessive force is needed and unlikely to surface, even if it did occur.
I would agree if not for Beckham's muscle mass and CV.

Hypothetical:

NFL lineman breaks the face of slightly built mentally disabled transient. Assume hypothetical transient has no weapons or unarmed assassination skills. Do you think the lineman would have the slightest problem in effortlessly (and without damage) subduing the transient? Say, with one hand and blindfolded with his feet bound with a large rubber band, to keep it more equitable?
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Old 22nd January 2019, 09:48 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I would agree if not for Beckham's muscle mass and CV.

Hypothetical:

NFL lineman breaks the face of slightly built mentally disabled transient. Assume hypothetical transient has no weapons or unarmed assassination skills. Do you think the lineman would have the slightest problem in effortlessly (and without damage) subduing the transient? Say, with one hand and blindfolded with his feet bound with a large rubber band, to keep it more equitable?
While there may be a plausible argument that the force used was excessive, this doesn't seem like a case where criminal investigation is warranted. Should the homeowner be charged in your opinion?

I think the police decision of "who cares" is appropriate use of discretion.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 09:57 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
While there may be a plausible argument that the force used was excessive, this doesn't seem like a case where criminal investigation is warranted. Should the homeowner be charged in your opinion?
Probably. Charged, then summarily acquitted, I would expect. But the message that private justice will be scrutinized by more than just the responding officers offhand opinions should be sent.

Quote:
I think the police decision of "who cares" is appropriate use of discretion.
That scares me a bit. Allows for far too much selective enforcement.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 10:09 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Probably. Charged, then summarily acquitted, I would expect. But the message that private justice will be scrutinized by more than just the responding officers offhand opinions should be sent.



That scares me a bit. Allows for far too much selective enforcement.
Discretion is a necessary element of the criminal justice system. It can certainly be abused, but that doesn't mean it can be eliminated. No law can be written that negates the need for discretion in the system. Charging someone you know is going to be acquitted is a waste of resources and would probably do more harm than good. The criminal justice system should not engage in pointless prosecution and should prioritize their resources in a thoughtful manner.

Use of force hairsplitting when it comes to some guy apprehending a prowler is a waste of effort. (He says, with zero self awareness)
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Old 22nd January 2019, 10:19 AM   #234
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I like the whole 'but he was running away" angle. In a college town not so far away, it's a 250 dollar fine for urinating in public. So I'm probably not going to stand in the middle of the street, I'm going to find a nice secluded shrub (maybe tucked away in a car park somewhere) to relieve myself. And if someone started yelling at me I would probably take off, post haste.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:28 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I like the whole 'but he was running away" angle. In a college town not so far away, it's a 250 dollar fine for urinating in public. So I'm probably not going to stand in the middle of the street, I'm going to find a nice secluded shrub (maybe tucked away in a car park somewhere) to relieve myself. And if someone started yelling at me I would probably take off, post haste.
Well, you didn't read much of the thread...

You can't just walk up to this house and pee next to the window.

You need to make an effort to get to the house and the window.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 11:32 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Probably. Charged, then summarily acquitted, I would expect. But the message that private justice will be scrutinized by more than just the responding officers offhand opinions should be sent.



That scares me a bit. Allows for far too much selective enforcement.
Prosecutors don't work that way at all in the USA though, as far as I know.

The belief that a jury would likely acquit, generally means no charges will be filed.

An unwinnable case is generally not even attempted.

Partly because you only get one shot to convict.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 12:01 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Prosecutors don't work that way at all in the USA though, as far as I know.

The belief that a jury would likely acquit, generally means no charges will be filed.

An unwinnable case is generally not even attempted.

Partly because you only get one shot to convict.
Leaving discretion to charge solely up to the responding officer. Others trust cops more than I do, I suppose
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Old 22nd January 2019, 12:44 PM   #238
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Prosecutors often drop or change charges.

the police can report whatever they want, but if the prosecutor decides to drop the charges, then that's that.
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:17 PM   #239
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Yes, but I'm talking about on the spot. The police decided Beckham's beat down was fine with them. That's the part I'm a little uneasy with. As far as the cops knew, Beckham could've been lying through his teeth and skipped town if things got ugly (excuse the little hyperbole). The police arrested Casdidy based on the report of the guy who was doing the only observable damage to another person
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Old 22nd January 2019, 01:38 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Out of curiosity, suppose when the girl putting clothes on saw the bloke, freaked out, went to run out of her room, tripped and hit the corner of a dresser, fracturing her skull, which entered her brain and she died, would that change your mind as to whether the peeping Tom was harmless or not?
Doesn't seem to be answering the hypothetical I posted.
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