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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:06 PM   #281
Thermal
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Does Beckham have the necessary qualifications to have made a clinical psychological evaluation and diagnosis? I don't know. Do you?
No. Which is exactly why you withhold punishment till you discern what you can of the facts.

Would you break the face of a mentally ill homeless guy you found jerking it in the bushes? I would hope not. And since most of us would have no way of diagnosing on the spot, we err to the side of caution and restraint.

I think that you shouldn't hurt people unless you really, really have to. Not a popular opinion around here, what with all you hard guys swaggering around.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:12 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No. Which is exactly why you withhold punishment till you discern what you can of the facts.
There is no punishment in this story, though. Beckham was trying to detain the guy until the authorities could get there and figure out all the facts. The guy fought, and Beckham defended himself.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:35 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
OR Beckham fully believed he was on the right side of the law and yelled for someone to call 911 because he wanted police present as soon as possible.

I believe the surprisingly mild extent of Cassidy's injuries after supposedly being helplessly and inescapably subject for several uninterrupted minutes to the unrestrained, violent, percussive ministrations of a large, angry, muscular thug-man with a revenge-beating on his mind until the arrival of police finally put an end to the ordeal, pretty clearly demonstrates which one of these is more supported by the actual evidence.
See, that...that right there. Where did you get that straw? I have said nothing of the kind. I think he calmly cleaned Cassidy's clock and taught him a lesson. No rage, no thuggish wildness or whatever weird fantasy you have invented. Why would you make something like that up?

Quote:
Literally not the slightest scrap or sliver of evidence to even passively suggest Cassidy has any mental disability whatsoever.
A homeless dude whacking off outside the window of a kid getting changed in the early hours of the morning, in a parking lot only a few feet from the front door. Oh, yeah, that just screams 'mentally sound'. Nope, not the slightest suggestion of some loose screws. Ya got me there.

Quote:
As usual you resort to reaching for the most remote possibilities and injecting them casually in attempt to poison the well.
Did you really just type that after concocting the weird fantasy of yours, noted above? Does self-reflection mean anything to you?

Quote:
I would be just as justified in interjecting "Cassidy seems to be a scrawny transient, possibly a white-supremacist and domestic terrorist", and thence repeating "possible terrorist" during the discussion and demanding that people consider the possibility that he is a racist terrorist and Beckham disrupted a terrorist plot and hate-crime against his family as if that were plausible.
I have described why I think he may have mental issues. Got anything to support this Fantasy #2 of yours?

Quote:
Beckham has "experience in catching and dropping people" who are encased in body armor and helmets pointedly designed to prevent injury to their bodies and particularly their heads and faces in the course of being caught and dropped. Isn't that a funny coincidence?
Oh, I see your point. A professional athlete wouldn't be able to modify his abilities to suit a slightly different set of circumstances. Yep. Full of shrewd insights tonight, you are.

Quote:
If it turns out that Cassidy was a domestic terrorist who was screaming "white power, die [n-word]s!" while scouting the apartment complex for places to plant bombs that would destroy the entire complex, and being tackled Beckham was the only thing that prevented dozens if not hundreds of deaths, will that change your view on whether action to detain him until police arrived was unnecessary?
Strawman-red hering combo! Nice!

Now, to repeat the question: is it okay to break the bones of a mentally ill person that you catch peeping in a window? I know you assert that it was 'just a black eye', and 'it was only one eye' (I really love that one. I mean, he has two, right?), but as Beckham had no knowledge of this guy and Cassidy posed no known threat, would you say it is okay to bust him up whether he was mentally ill or not? If not, how would Beckham know if he was prior to breaking bones?

That is why I am hesitant to applaud vigilante punishment. You won't necessarily know the magnitude of what you are doing.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:42 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There is no punishment in this story, though. Beckham was trying to detain the guy until the authorities could get there and figure out all the facts. The guy fought, and Beckham defended himself.
If a toddler fought you, do you think you could restrain him without shattering bones (excuse the hyperbole)? Beckham is a powerhouse. Cassidy does not appear to be. I think TB could have kept him easily restrained without giving a scratch, as posted upthread.

What do you guys think? Was TB a timid mouse or Cassidy a raging psycho or something? Beckham has some TCB muscle; he did not have to fight for his life from the homeless jerk-off.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:04 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Also, I thought the point was to masturbate in view of the victim.

What's the point of masturbating where the victim can't tell you are masturbating?
I believe that there is such a thing as a man who will observe a live naked woman and masturbate and also not want to be seen by that woman while he is doing it. Given that this act is illegal and also socially unacceptable it seems easy to imagine that such a man would not want to be seen by her (or anyone else) rather than wanting that.

If Cassidy really did want the naked girl to watch him and thought that she will not react negatively and instead remain for him to watch her then I think that he has a genuine detachment from reality. "She won't scream or yell for her parents or call the police and she will just let me look at her nakedness and let me keep doing my thing." In my opinion, that thinking would be coming from mental illness or drugs.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 09:29 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
See, that...that right there. Where did you get that straw? I have said nothing of the kind.
Conceded, although the lack of evidence of any sort of sustained beating, "calm" or otherwise, still makes you wrong about this.

After further consideration, I'll amend my statement of earlier: "One or two punches at most" is not all that's needed to explain the entirety of Cassidy's injuries. He could've very easily sustained everything he presented with, purely from falling on his face in the parking lot from a tackle and nothing else. The possibility of such injuries is, after all, exactly why football players wear protective equipment.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A homeless dude whacking off outside the window of a kid getting changed in the early hours of the morning, in a parking lot only a few feet from the front door. Oh, yeah, that just screams 'mentally sound'. Nope, not the slightest suggestion of some loose screws. Ya got me there.
Okay, you need to understand that there is a real and serious difference between a mental disability, which is the word you used, and even drastically poor judgment or decision-making, which I'm sure you'll agree that fully mentally-able people are perfectly capable of. There's also the possibility of drugs or alcohol, which the police report does not mention him being tested for at the hospital, affecting his judgment - which are not considered by society at large to be exculpatory for bad behavior.

Additionally, being homeless isn't symptomatic of a mental disability.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I have described why I think he may have mental issues. Got anything to support this Fantasy #2 of yours?
But your "reason" is arbitrary and comical. Got anything to support a "mental disability" besides making a bad decision? He seemed pretty sharp at the hospital when police were questioning him and he refused to tell them where his "broken down vehicle" was, and then invoked the Fifth Amendment.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, I see your point. A professional athlete wouldn't be able to modify his abilities to suit a slightly different set of circumstances. Yep. Full of shrewd insights tonight, you are.
Yes I'm sure "professional athletes" have a unique superpower that allows them to adjust their body-mass on the fly (literally) during a tackle so that a person with no padding or anything else to protect his body and face wouldn't get hurt when said face impacts the ground after the tackle.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Now, to repeat the question: is it okay to break the bones of a mentally ill person that you catch peeping in a window?
Wait - we're going from "mental disability" to "mentally ill"? I suppose it it's all the same to you. Very well...

I see you're still trying to imply that Beckham made a conscious decision to administer precisely the two fractures diagnosed by the doctor at the hospital and took measured steps to make those specific injuries happen. Here in the real world where real-life happens, Beckham couldn't have known whether he had given Cassidy minor bone fractures during the tussle, since he doesn't have x-ray vision (as I mentioned earlier); so what you're really asking is "is it okay to tackle a mentally ill person fleeing from the scene of a crime", or at most "is it okay to punch a mentally ill person in the face in order to subdue them until police arrive after they have committed a crime". I would say, yes. Not advisable, mind, due to the risk that the offender may be armed and is obviously unpredictable in any case; but if the offended decides to take that risk, then yes it is okay.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 09:37 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If Cassidy really did want the naked girl to watch him and thought that she will not react negatively and instead remain for him to watch her then I think that he has a genuine detachment from reality.
"Flashers" and public exposure is a thing, with a long and storied history. I'm not sure the point of it is ever that the flasher expects his victim to stand passively and continue watching him; my impression was that the horrified surprise on the victim's part is what he's after, and the flasher expects he'll be able to escape the area before police arrive.

That said, I don't think it was Cassidy's intent to be seen.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 09:50 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If a toddler fought you, do you think you could restrain him without shattering bones (excuse the hyperbole)? Beckham is a powerhouse. Cassidy does not appear to be.
Note that we have never actually seen Cassidy's body and have no idea of what his build is.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think TB could have kept him easily restrained without giving a scratch, as posted upthread.
That's because you live in Bugs Bunny cartoon-land where even though Cassidy was running full-tilt to get away, Beckham should've been able to simply run up and grab his arms and just hold him still and laugh.

When you're comparing the scuffle between Beckham and Cassidy to an adult poster on this forum "fighting a toddler" and expecting people to take you seriously, it makes me think there is someone here who's detached from reality, and it wasn't Cassidy.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:58 AM   #289
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Who gives a hoot if the man is mentally ill. The goal was to apprehend him. Any mental illness can be considered a mitigating factor in a court of law later. The window peeper's motivations or state of mind are not relevant at the moment of apprehension.

If the man is so ill that he cannot prevent himself from committing sexual crimes on children, he needs to be institutionalized or have some other medical intervention in place. Whether or not the state of medical care and criminal justice in this country will allow for this to happen rather than just throwing the man in prison is another matter.

This hypothetical has nothing to do with the need to apprehend and turn the man over to the authorities, including using force to do so.
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:01 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I believe that there is such a thing as a man who will observe a live naked woman and masturbate and also not want to be seen by that woman while he is doing it. Given that this act is illegal and also socially unacceptable it seems easy to imagine that such a man would not want to be seen by her (or anyone else) rather than wanting that.

If Cassidy really did want the naked girl to watch him and thought that she will not react negatively and instead remain for him to watch her then I think that he has a genuine detachment from reality. "She won't scream or yell for her parents or call the police and she will just let me look at her nakedness and let me keep doing my thing." In my opinion, that thinking would be coming from mental illness or drugs.
He picked an odd window for someone who did not want to be seen, imo.

If I wanted to look in a window and not be seen, that sort of window would not be one I'd try.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:10 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If a toddler fought you, do you think you could restrain him without shattering bones (excuse the hyperbole)? Beckham is a powerhouse. Cassidy does not appear to be. I think TB could have kept him easily restrained without giving a scratch, as posted upthread.

What do you guys think? Was TB a timid mouse or Cassidy a raging psycho or something? Beckham has some TCB muscle; he did not have to fight for his life from the homeless jerk-off.
By doing what he did, Cassidy is voluntarily taking the risk of being beaten up by a resident of the house, or a passer by, or possibly being bitten by the family dog, etc.

Cassidy's choices are his own, and he has to deal with the consequences of those choices.

Just like Beckham and his choices.

There is absolutely zero chance of any jury convicting Beckham of anything imo, even if you grant that Beckham did not need to punch Cassidy in the face.
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:11 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Conceded, although the lack of evidence of any sort of sustained beating, "calm" or otherwise, still makes you wrong about this.
Again with the fantasies. I didn't say there was any sustained beating. After just conceding that you made up your earlier version, you go right on to make up another?

Quote:
After further consideration, I'll amend my statement of earlier: "One or two punches at most" is not all that's needed to explain the entirety of Cassidy's injuries. He could've very easily sustained everything he presented with, purely from falling on his face in the parking lot from a tackle and nothing else. The possibility of such injuries is, after all, exactly why football players wear protective equipment.
And now you are actually posing that Beckham didn't hit him at all. Cassidy just 'fell'. Yeah, I hear a lot of people just 'fall' when being apprehended. Beckham's 'conversation' must have been just that, I suppose, right? A little chat over tea?

Quote:
Okay, you need to understand that there is a real and serious difference between a mental disability, which is the word you used, and even drastically poor judgment or decision-making, which I'm sure you'll agree that fully mentally-able people are perfectly capable of. There's also the possibility of drugs or alcohol, which the police report does not mention him being tested for at the hospital, affecting his judgment - which are not considered by society at large to be exculpatory for bad behavior.

Additionally, being homeless isn't symptomatic of a mental disability.
You are unaware of the significant correlation, I take it? Trying to separate and explain away the different factors individually is pointless. All in all, Cassidy shows every indication of having some problems. None of which has been my point, anyway. But keep arguing tangental irrelevancies.

Quote:
But your "reason" is arbitrary and comical. Got anything to support a "mental disability" besides making a bad decision? He seemed pretty sharp at the hospital when police were questioning him and he refused to tell them where his "broken down vehicle" was, and then invoked the Fifth Amendment.
Wow. Serving up fantasy #4, Checkmite now knows how sharp Cassidy was at his hospital interview. You go boy!Second sight for the win!

Quote:
Yes I'm sure "professional athletes" have a unique superpower that allows them to adjust their body-mass on the fly (literally) during a tackle so that a person with no padding or anything else to protect his body and face wouldn't get hurt when said face impacts the ground after the tackle.
Superpower? Really? Is it so far fetched to you that a former pro D-back would not have the slightest problem running the transient masturbater down and stopping him? Wait...are you suggesting Tony Beckham was too stupid to do anything but a full-on football tackle? That's pretty racist. Check yer privilege, yo.

Quote:
Wait - we're going from "mental disability" to "mentally ill"? I suppose it it's all the same to you. Very well...
I was obviously asking the more general question, using the OP as a jumping off point. You need not keep playing the cheap gotchas if you are honestly interested in discussion.

Quote:
I see you're still trying to imply that Beckham made a conscious decision to administer precisely the two fractures diagnosed by the doctor at the hospital and took measured steps to make those specific injuries happen...
Dear god, fantasy what, #5? I'm starting to lose track. I imply nothing of the kind.

Quote:
Here in the real world where real-life happens, Beckham couldn't have known whether he had given Cassidy minor bone fractures during the tussle, since he doesn't have x-ray vision (as I mentioned earlier); so what you're really asking is "is it okay to tackle a mentally ill person fleeing from the scene of a crime", or at most "is it okay to punch a mentally ill person in the face in order to subdue them until police arrive after they have committed a crime". I would say, yes. Not advisable, mind, due to the risk that the offender may be armed and is obviously unpredictable in any case; but if the offended decides to take that risk, then yes it is okay.
Okay. 'Fleeing from the scene of a crime', you say? 'X-ray vision'? Yeah, we are not torquing this narrative at all, are we?

My question is: is it acceptable to break some bones of a sad little peeper? Drop your silliness of pretending Cassidy was some unpredictably dangerous monster. Sure, anyone could be, but by that logic a jaywalker could be (as you opined earlier) a terrorist and you would feel justified in busting his skull. 'Could be' means nothing.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Note that we have never actually seen Cassidy's body and have no idea of what his build is.
The police report you considerately provided notes Cassidy as being 5'8", 195 lbs, and of medium build. Tony Beckham is what some of us would refer to as built like a brick ****house. Fantasy #6 fails on evidence.

Quote:
That's because you live in Bugs Bunny cartoon-land where even though Cassidy was running full-tilt to get away, Beckham should've been able to simply run up and grab his arms and just hold him still and laugh.
Yep. A homeless peeper who was jerking it in the bushes would surely be able to outrun a freaking NFL defensive back at the drop of a hat. Beckham must have really met his match here, in your view. Maybe Cassidy has a future in the NFL, based on the prowess you assume?

Quote:
When you're comparing the scuffle between Beckham and Cassidy to an adult poster on this forum "fighting a toddler" and expecting people to take you seriously, it makes me think there is someone here who's detached from reality, and it wasn't Cassidy.
Had you bothered to read the post you are gotcha-ing, I specifically asked to excuse the hyperbole. I have been sparring for most of my adult life. There is a reason for weight classes in boxing, wrestling, etc. Heavier body mass gives you a dramatic advantage. Beckham's build, even now, is on the extreme end of conditioning. The homeless transient, I am admittedly assuming, is likely not spending quite so many hours in the gym and would pose little challenge to TB.

When was the last time you had someone who outweighed you by 50 lbs of well-conditioned muscle try to overpower you? I'm guessing it's been at least a while, if ever? Please take my word for this: he will handle you quite easily. The toddler comparison, while admitted hyperbole, is not far off from being a valid comparison.
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:16 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
By doing what he did, Cassidy is voluntarily taking the risk of being beaten up by a resident of the house, or a passer by, or possibly being bitten by the family dog, etc.

Cassidy's choices are his own, and he has to deal with the consequences of those choices.

Just like Beckham and his choices.

There is absolutely zero chance of any jury convicting Beckham of anything imo, even if you grant that Beckham did not need to punch Cassidy in the face.
Agreed. My question is, should private citizens be allowed to break faces in non-self-defense situations with impunity? I feel like a charge should be filed against TB, if only because he did harm someone. Surely he would not be found guilty of anything (I think), but he should have to demonstrate that more formally. As is, it sets a precedent for moving the line of acceptable street beatings, which are generally frowned upon.
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:29 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Who gives a hoot if the man is mentally ill. The goal was to apprehend him. Any mental illness can be considered a mitigating factor in a court of law later. The window peeper's motivations or state of mind are not relevant at the moment of apprehension.

If the man is so ill that he cannot prevent himself from committing sexual crimes on children, he needs to be institutionalized or have some other medical intervention in place. Whether or not the state of medical care and criminal justice in this country will allow for this to happen rather than just throwing the man in prison is another matter.

This hypothetical has nothing to do with the need to apprehend and turn the man over to the authorities, including using force to do so.
It does, in the general sense. The question I am asking is how much force should be accepted in a private citizen's apprehension of a non-violent suspect. I interpret Beckham's comments as meaning he tuned him up punitively (yes, it can be argued, but the media certainly is running with this interpretation). So if we accept this narrative, we are accepting private physical punishment in non-self-defense situations. Using the mentally disabled alleged offender as an example shines a little light on why this should not be acceptable. As it has been noted, you can't give a psyche eval on the spot. So perhaps the peeper should be spared the broken face if it is not necessary? And I think you have a long way to go to prove that Cassidy could give Tony Beckham a run for his money.
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:16 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again with the fantasies. I didn't say there was any sustained beating. After just conceding that you made up your earlier version, you go right on to make up another?
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous. You have repeatedly used language which invokes a sustained beating:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The police were still taking the guy doing the beating at his word, though.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Beckham was working the guy over in public view.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We can't excuse the beating because Beckham was right in determining that Cassidy was a peeper.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The police decided Beckham's beat down was fine with them.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
At the time that Beckham went to town on Casdidys face, no excuses had been heard
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Even a dog will flee from a painful beating, which he sure seemed to have received.
Obviously you're talking about more than a punch or two, here, because that's what I proposed and you have repeatedly dismissed it as somehow impossible on the basis of the minor bone fractures Cassidy received. So yes, "sustained beating" precisely describes what you are contending that Beckham did to Cassidy.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And now you are actually posing that Beckham didn't hit him at all. Cassidy just 'fell'.
Was tackled. Generally that implies force; I'm sure you realize that.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are unaware of the significant correlation, I take it?
Yes there's a correlation between mental disability and homelessness. But being homeless is not prescriptive of a mental disability.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Trying to separate and explain away the different factors individually is pointless. All in all, Cassidy shows every indication of having some problems.
The only problem Cassidy shows any indication of is poor impulse control.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Superpower? Really? Is it so far fetched to you that a former pro D-back would not have the slightest problem running the transient masturbater down and stopping him? Wait...are you suggesting Tony Beckham was too stupid to do anything but a full-on football tackle? That's pretty racist. Check yer privilege, yo.
Tony Beckham hasn't tackled anyone in over a decade. Obviously he hasn't been maintaining the same training and exercise regimen that he had been when he was in the NFL more than ten years ago. But yes, go ahead and explain to us all about how NFL cornerbacks are rigorously trained to fine-tune their tackles to reduce tackling force on demand (because obviously when tackling a runner you don't want to hit him with as much force as possible in any situation apparently), and like learning to ride a bicycle this training never leaves them, even more than a decade past retirement.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I was obviously asking the more general question, using the OP as a jumping off point.
You are seeking refuge in this explanation because you think the emotional argument of "but he could be mentally ill!" has some staying power; but it doesn't. Mental illness does not preclude ability to tell right from wrong, the ability to make a conscious decision to break the law, or one's eligibility to be caught and held for police.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dear god, fantasy what, #5? I'm starting to lose track. I imply nothing of the kind.
Then why do you keep characterizing this situation as an endeavor by Beckham "to break bones"? You've been repeatedly asserting that intention on Beckham's part.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Okay. 'Fleeing from the scene of a crime', you say?
Are you now even denying that Cassidy was being chased by Beckham because Beckham caught him committing an alleged crime?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
'X-ray vision'? Yeah, we are not torquing this narrative at all, are we?
If you are going to concede that Beckham could not have known whether he had given Cassidy any facial fractures, then you need to stop framing that as his intention (as you do in the very next quote, viz: )

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My question is: is it acceptable to break some bones of a sad little peeper?
I've answered that it's acceptable for someone to tackle and subdue a "sad little peeper" until police arrive if they wish to. Minor fractures ARE a possible consequence of that action, but that doesn't change anything. If Beckham had truly beaten Cassidy to the point that his face looked like a mottled tomato, but managed to avoid actually causing any fractures, I would STILL consider that to be excessive force despite the lack of "broken bones".

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The police report you considerately provided notes Cassidy as being 5'8", 195 lbs, and of medium build. Tony Beckham is what some of us would refer to as built like a brick ****house. Fantasy #6 fails on evidence.

Yep. A homeless peeper who was jerking it in the bushes would surely be able to outrun a freaking NFL defensive back at the drop of a hat. Beckham must have really met his match here, in your view. Maybe Cassidy has a future in the NFL, based on the prowess you assume?

Had you bothered to read the post you are gotcha-ing, I specifically asked to excuse the hyperbole. I have been sparring for most of my adult life. There is a reason for weight classes in boxing, wrestling, etc. Heavier body mass gives you a dramatic advantage. Beckham's build, even now, is on the extreme end of conditioning. The homeless transient, I am admittedly assuming, is likely not spending quite so many hours in the gym and would pose little challenge to TB.

When was the last time you had someone who outweighed you by 50 lbs of well-conditioned muscle try to overpower you? I'm guessing it's been at least a while, if ever? Please take my word for this: he will handle you quite easily.
(insert really annoying buzzer sound here)

Now this is where you really stick your foot in your mouth in several different ways.

Firstly, according to this handy height-weight chart from Rush University Medical Center, 195 pounds at 5'8" is quite overweight - only two pounds shy of obese. He was NOT a "scrawny" guy, as you have attempted to portray him.

Further, according to his bio from the website of the Detroit Lions, the last NFL team he played for, Tony Beckham's weight in 2007 - the last year he played for the NFL - was 198 pounds, which is only three pounds heavier than Cassidy's weight given in the police report. As a one-time athlete, Beckham likely had an advantage on Cassidy. But this was not some David-and-Goliath situation, Cassidy was not outrageously outclassed, certainly not "outweighed by 50 lbs of well conditioned muscle" as you put it (my god, where did you even pull that number out of?), and Beckham might well have had a hell of a time subduing Cassidy. It would not have been a minimal-effort task for Beckham to catch and hold him.

And that's just comparing weights. Now let's go to the tape. Or well, the reports of the incident.

Two things to consider:

1. Judging from our view of the scene as provided by the video in the news report I linked, Cassidy was at most about ten feet from Beckham when he was spotted and the chase began,

2. According to the police report, when police arrived on the scene and found Cassidy and Beckham struggling, they were in a location about 50 yards away from Beckham's house. That's half a football field, slick.

That's a pretty damn decent run, objectively speaking, for someone who isn't a football player (as far as we know) to be evading what you describe as a highly trained and experienced NFL "powerhouse". And I'm sure that after needing to run after him for that long, Beckham - who was ten years out of practice and hadn't exactly had a pre-game stretch before this play - was less interested in "finessing" Cassidy to a gentle stop and more interested in just ending the chase as definitively as possible with a solid tackle. Face, meet parking lot.

Now it's possible that Beckham tackled him earlier than that and Cassidy, while struggling, managed to move the scrum however many yards further away, but either way that just goes to show that Cassidy wasn't as weak and "scrawny" as you claim he is, or that Beckham was not the absolutely overpowering behemoth you promote him as; and either way, the "evidence" shows that just about every single thing you have blithely presumed about this encounter is wrong. You've overestimated Beckham's weight by a comical amount, you've underestimated Cassidy's comparative size by an equally comical amount, and it looks like you never even bothered to consider just how far Cassidy was able to kite Beckham before finally being tackled, and therefore underestimated Cassidy's overall fitness by a comical amount.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The toddler comparison, while admitted hyperbole, is not far off from being a valid comparison.
lol
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:26 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. My question is, should private citizens be allowed to break faces in non-self-defense situations with impunity? I feel like a charge should be filed against TB, if only because he did harm someone. Surely he would not be found guilty of anything (I think), but he should have to demonstrate that more formally. As is, it sets a precedent for moving the line of acceptable street beatings, which are generally frowned upon.
Street beatings of criminals caught in the act are generally frowned upon?

Where?

Beckham was defending his family and the community, and rightly so.

Once again, your victim can press charges any time he wants, regarding being injured by Beckham. He is free to swear out a complaint at any time, and we know he has a lawyer.

I wonder why he doesn't fill out that paperwork?

Since anyone can file a complaint against anyone else, there is no such thing as the impunity you mention.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:28 PM   #297
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Maybe you should agree to disagree, or something.
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:44 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Toxic masculinity or just a pervert?
Which one gets a Gillette endorsement deal for the dad?
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:55 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Maybe you should agree to disagree, or something.
If we did that, the board would disappear.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:58 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Street beatings of criminals caught in the act are generally frowned upon?
Whether it is frowned upon might depend on the races of the two involved parties. Nowadays we decide what is frowned upon by looking at the internet and tweets and determining which way the wind is blowing by the degree of public outrage.

This incident seems to have had no perceptible public outrage for Cassidy's black eye or beating (if that's what someone wants to call it). We can't know for certain that there would be no outrage if the races were reversed. "That white dude didn't need to beat down the brother because he could have just called the police instead. This kind of thing has been going on too long and it has got to stop now!" Tweet that 4 million times.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:12 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Street beatings of criminals caught in the act are generally frowned upon?

Where?
If I see someone punching someone else in the street, I don't care who they are. I'm calling the police. There are no mitigating circumstances.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:25 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If I see someone punching someone else in the street, I don't care who they are. I'm calling the police. There are no mitigating circumstances.
Of course, I'd call the police too.

Initially you don't know anything but what you see.

But when the dust settles, few people will be frowning about it.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:28 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous. You have repeatedly used language which invokes a sustained beating:
Okay. We're doing this again, this thing where responses get longer and longer with finer degrees of hairsplitting. Sticking to the main points:

Quote:
Then why do you keep characterizing this situation as an endeavor by Beckham "to break bones"? You've been repeatedly asserting that intention on Beckham's part.
No. I think his intent was to teach Cassidy an extrajudicial lesson. Nothing 'sustained', or 'specific intention to break bones', or any of your other fantasies. I think he worked him over hard and fast, but I have no reason to think fantasy number...whatever we are on (specific intent)...was in play.

Quote:
I've answered that it's acceptable for someone to tackle and subdue a "sad little peeper" until police arrive if they wish to. Minor fractures ARE a possible consequence of that action, but that doesn't change anything. If Beckham had truly beaten Cassidy to the point that his face looked like a mottled tomato, but managed to avoid actually causing any fractures, I would STILL consider that to be excessive force despite the lack of "broken bones".
The police said they found Cassidy 'bruised and bloodied'. We have only a front shot of his face, but even that shows cuts and a split open lip, in addition to the other known fractures. This was more than 'a punch or two', and we don't even know about body shots. You are dramatically downplaying this to dismiss it as a 'punch or two'. Why?

Quote:
Firstly, according to this handy height-weight chart from Rush University Medical Center, 195 pounds at 5'8" is quite overweight - only two pounds shy of obese. He was NOT a "scrawny" guy, as you have attempted to portray him.

Further, according to his bio from the website of the Detroit Lions, the last NFL team he played for, Tony Beckham's weight in 2007 - the last year he played for the NFL - was 198 pounds, which is only three pounds heavier than Cassidy's weight given in the police report. As a one-time athlete, Beckham likely had an advantage on Cassidy. But this was not some David-and-Goliath situation, Cassidy was not outrageously outclassed, certainly not "outweighed by 50 lbs of well conditioned muscle" as you put it (my god, where did you even pull that number out of?), and Beckham might well have had a hell of a time subduing Cassidy. It would not have been a minimal-effort task for Beckham to catch and hold him.
Okay, good. Now, ignoring that you claimed in your last post that we know nothing about Cassidy's build that you have suddenly become quite the expert on, you are comparing Beckham's weight from 11 years ago to Cassidy's now. Going waaaaay out on a limb here, might Beckham's current weight be more applicable? No? Okay.

Our transient was of medium build and borderline obese. Beckham, based on the TV interview, is not. Looks pretty damned fit, if you ask me. You know, I've heard that two men can weigh the same, but one be solid muscle and one be pudgy pot belly. But you think the weight tells the tale. Whatever. Moving on to the more interesting:

Quote:
And that's just comparing weights. Now let's go to the tape. Or well, the reports of the incident.

Two things to consider:

1. Judging from our view of the scene as provided by the video in the news report I linked, Cassidy was at most about ten feet from Beckham when he was spotted and the chase began,

2. According to the police report, when police arrived on the scene and found Cassidy and Beckham struggling, they were in a location about 50 yards away from Beckham's house. That's half a football field, slick.
Yes, the cops did say that. It is completely refuted by Mrs Beckham, in the OP video from around 1:15 to 1:20. She points behind her at the patio door and said she came out there and Tony had Cassidy on the curb, pointing to a penninsula about 25 feet away(not half a football field, slick). Something is wrong with the spatial relationships, here.

Quote:
That's a pretty damn decent run, objectively speaking, for someone who isn't a football player (as far as we know) to be evading what you describe as a highly trained and experienced NFL "powerhouse". And I'm sure that after needing to run after him for that long, Beckham - who was ten years out of practice and hadn't exactly had a pre-game stretch before this play - was less interested in "finessing" Cassidy to a gentle stop and more interested in just ending the chase as definitively as possible with a solid tackle. Face, meet parking lot.

Now it's possible that Beckham tackled him earlier than that and Cassidy, while struggling, managed to move the scrum however many yards further away, but either way that just goes to show that Cassidy wasn't as weak and "scrawny" as you claim he is, or that Beckham was not the absolutely overpowering behemoth you promote him as; and either way, the "evidence" shows that just about every single thing you have blithely presumed about this encounter is wrong. You've overestimated Beckham's weight by a comical amount, you've underestimated Cassidy's comparative size by an equally comical amount, and it looks like you never even bothered to consider just how far Cassidy was able to kite Beckham before finally being tackled, and therefore underestimated Cassidy's overall fitness by a comical amount.
I am saying Beckham had 50 pounds of muscle on him. As opposed to 50 pounds of fat. I get that you don't appreciate the difference. I also get where Mrs TB saw them, which is dramatically closer than the police report, which needs some explanation on it's own.

So. You start out earlier in the thread saying Cassidy just got a black eye. It is pointed out to you that he got a fractured eye socket among other facial fractures, and you say 'well, it was just one eye' (god, will that one come back to haunt you). You dismiss his other facial injuries and say that it all might have happened when he 'fell'. You are twisting every post I make into a pretzel to prove me wrong, to the point of making things up, and changing your story with every post to maintain the narrative. Why?
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:36 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Street beatings of criminals caught in the act are generally frowned upon?

Where?
Non-violent ones? Pretty much the whole USA. Are pedestrians breaking the toes of jaywalkers in your town or something?

Quote:
Beckham was defending his family and the community, and rightly so.

Once again, your victim can press charges any time he wants, regarding being injured by Beckham. He is free to swear out a complaint at any time, and we know he has a lawyer.

I wonder why he doesn't fill out that paperwork?
The what's this now?

Quote:
Since anyone can file a complaint against anyone else, there is no such thing as the impunity you mention.
Impunity from criminal charges by the police, which Beckham seems to have. His word was evidently enough to not be arrested for battery, which police can even charge the 'good guy' with.
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:56 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Non-violent ones? Pretty much the whole USA. Are pedestrians breaking the toes of jaywalkers in your town or something?



The what's this now?



Impunity from criminal charges by the police, which Beckham seems to have. His word was evidently enough to not be arrested for battery, which police can even charge the 'good guy' with.
It is pretty obvious they were using discretion.

It isn't like they don't know where he lives if they want to question him later.

It's the house that glows by his daughters window when they shine black light on the window
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:14 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No. I think his intent was to teach Cassidy an extrajudicial lesson. Nothing 'sustained', or 'specific intention to break bones', or any of your other fantasies. I think he worked him over hard and fast, but I have no reason to think fantasy number...whatever we are on (specific intent)...was in play.
"Hard and fast" here obviously meaning "0 to 2 punches", according to Cassidy's actual injuries. I'm okay with it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The police said they found Cassidy 'bruised and bloodied'. We have only a front shot of his face, but even that shows cuts and a split open lip, in addition to the other known fractures. This was more than 'a punch or two', and we don't even know about body shots. You are dramatically downplaying this to dismiss it as a 'punch or two'. Why?
He was tackled while running away. That means he fell to the ground face-first. A hard face-plant on concrete is more than enough to explain those injuries, both the bleeding lip AND the minor fractures.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Okay, good. Now, ignoring that you claimed in your last post that we know nothing about Cassidy's build that you have suddenly become quite the expert on, you are comparing Beckham's weight from 11 years ago to Cassidy's now. Going waaaaay out on a limb here, might Beckham's current weight be more applicable? No? Okay.

Our transient was of medium build and borderline obese. Beckham, based on the TV interview, is not. Looks pretty damned fit, if you ask me. You know, I've heard that two men can weigh the same, but one be solid muscle and one be pudgy pot belly. But you think the weight tells the tale.
It is certainly possible - even probable - but not a given, that Beckham weighs a little more now than he did when he played in the NFL. But unless you're now going to tell us that Beckham is stronger and more fit now, over a decade retired, than he was when he actually played football, whatever "extra weight" he has is good old post-retirement beer-blubber, not hard muscle. And that kind of extra weight makes engaging in physicality harder, not easier. If anything it's a handicap to Beckham, not further advantage. And he's definitely not 50 pounds over Cassidy at any rate.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, the cops did say that. It is completely refuted by Mrs Beckham, in the OP video from around 1:15 to 1:20. She points behind her at the patio door and said she came out there and Tony had Cassidy on the curb, pointing to a penninsula about 25 feet away(not half a football field, slick). Something is wrong with the spatial relationships, here.
It's not the inconsistency that you think it is. Mrs. Beckham points out the location that Beckham and Cassidy were at when she saw them, before she called police. The police report gives the location they were at when the police arrived on the scene (and Beckham himself seems to point out that location earlier in the video). The police report includes a building number that Cassidy and Beckham were found in front of, so there is not likely to be any error on their part. This only seems to corroborate the fact that Beckham had much more trouble corralling Cassidy that you so desperately want us to believe he should have had.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I am saying Beckham had 50 pounds of muscle on him. As opposed to 50 pounds of fat.
No, that's not what you said. You said Beckham outweighed Cassidy by 50 pounds. At the time you hadn't even realized that Cassidy was borderline obese, and were still asserting that comparing him to Cassidy in terms of an adult versus a toddler was "hyperbole", but not by much. You even went on this whole song and dance about how you "used to spar" so you know why people are put into "different weight classes" and how "heavier" gives you an advantage. So enough with the trying to pretend you were just drawing a distinction between muscle and fat; 50 pounds of muscle and 50 pounds of fat both end up in the same weight class, which would've rendered that entire tangent of yours out of place.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So. You start out earlier in the thread saying Cassidy just got a black eye. It is pointed out to you that he got a fractured eye socket among other facial fractures, and you say 'well, it was just one eye' (god, will that one come back to haunt you). You dismiss his other facial injuries and say that it all might have happened when he 'fell'.
(...was tackled....)

Hey look, here's a fun video to watch. This woman was thrown once - just once, by one person - into the side of a concrete bench, and she sustained multiple serious facial fractures requiring reconstructive surgery, and bleeding cuts. From one single facial hit to a hard object.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


This woman received far, far, far more serious and extensive injuries than Cassidy did. From a single hit, and nothing else whatsoever. Compared to what this woman suffered from a single collision, if Beckham "went to town" on Cassidy's face and yet only managed give him two fractures that didn't need treatment and a busted lip, maybe you're the one who's really underselling Beckham's capabilities.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are twisting every post I make into a pretzel to prove me wrong, to the point of making things up, and changing your story with every post to maintain the narrative. Why?
"Changing my story"? My story has remained entirely consistent: Beckham saw Cassidy masturbating, chased him down and tackled him, gave him one or two punches at most (if any at all) in the course of subduing him, and struggled to hold him until police arrived. This is consistent with the police report. The burden of proof is on you if you want to assert that either the police are lying, or Beckham was lying when he told the police he did only what was necessary to keep Cassidy subdued until they arrived. Right now the two minor bone fractures Cassidy received are still consistent with Beckham's story as given by the police report. No matter how many times you rephrase "broken bones" to make your emotional argument, all of the facts remain consistent with Beckham's story.

You are straining credibility to spin Beckham's simple braggadocio on the news about successfully subduing Cassidy, into some kind of confession that he wanted to "punish" Cassidy "extra-judicially" before the police arrived - an assertion for which there is no evidence. You frame Cassidy as a "scrawny" and "possibly mentally ill" victim that was helplessly at the mercy of this vastly larger bruiser who wanted to "clean his clock", when in fact the two men weren't of drastically different body mass, the evidence seems to suggest a protracted struggle to control Cassidy on Beckham's part, and all of Cassidy's injuries are consistent with Beckham simply tackling and then struggling to subdue him pending the arrival of the police.
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:25 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If we did that, the board would disappear.
No it wouldn't.
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:26 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It is pretty obvious they were using discretion.

It isn't like they don't know where he lives if they want to question him later.

It's the house that glows by his daughters window when they shine black light on the window
LOL
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:31 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
<LOTS OF STUFF>

I think you're going to struggle to convince anyone here that extra judicial beatings are de-facto a bad thing and that violence perpetrated by a man detaining another man in commission of a crime that involves a penis (crimes among the worst, most heinous, and most worthy of extra-judicial beating, according to many) should be investigated.


The assembled company is more than happy to take the risk of a weird conjunction of circumstances, mental illness or downright bad luck leading to a mistaken interpretation of the situation where an innocent man gets his face broken.


Better a thousand innocent men have their face punched than one pervert be apprehended without a little something extra.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:16 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think you're going to struggle to convince anyone here that extra judicial beatings are de-facto a bad thing and that violence perpetrated by a man detaining another man in commission of a crime that involves a penis (crimes among the worst, most heinous, and most worthy of extra-judicial beating, according to many) should be investigated.


The assembled company is more than happy to take the risk of a weird conjunction of circumstances, mental illness or downright bad luck leading to a mistaken interpretation of the situation where an innocent man gets his face broken.


Better a thousand innocent men have their face punched than one pervert be apprehended without a little something extra.
Or the bloke may just have admitted what he was doing after the cops caught him, running away from people, for the second time, when they arrived, which could be why they arrested him and didn't bother with the other dude, as they could just come back to verify things.

Ie

There is a lot of things we don't know were either said or happened.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:25 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Or the bloke may just have admitted what he was doing after the cops caught him, running away from people, for the second time, when they arrived, which could be why they arrested him and didn't bother with the other dude, as they could just come back to verify things.

Ie

There is a lot of things we don't know were either said or happened.

Yes. That's rather the point.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:11 AM   #312
cullennz
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On the upside

From reading this thread I have to put the

He might have just happened to have a wee, to avoid being caught weeing in public, because that is a really really bad criminal offence, so did it coincidentally next to a young naked girl getting dressed, then running away from both the father and police, as one of the most humorous things I have read in a while.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 25th January 2019 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:15 AM   #313
3point14
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
On the upside

From reading this thread I have to put the

He might have just happened to have a wee, to avoid being caught weeing in public, because that is a really really bad criminal offence, so did it coincidentally next to a young naked girl getting dressed, then running away from both the father and police, as one of the most humorous things I have read in a while.

Then you've entirely missed the point.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:22 AM   #314
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Non-violent ones? Pretty much the whole USA. Are pedestrians breaking the toes of jaywalkers in your town or something?



The what's this now?



Impunity from criminal charges by the police, which Beckham seems to have. His word was evidently enough to not be arrested for battery, which police can even charge the 'good guy' with.
Yes, felonies and misdemeanors are equal, that's why they have diifferent names and different penalties.

Have you considered that the police have evidence that's not in the newspaper? Like semen and lotion?

You continually re-state the lie that Beckham cannot be charged with beating up Cassidy. That won't ever make it the truth.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:23 AM   #315
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No it wouldn't.
What would be left if we always agreed to disagree instead of carrying on extremely long and repetitive discussions?

And send your joke meter to the calibration lab.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:25 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
What would be left if we always agreed to disagree instead of carrying on extremely long and repetitive discussions?
Indeed.


Quote:
And send your joke meter to the calibration lab.

Likewise...

(perhaps I should have used a smileyface.)
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:31 AM   #317
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Indeed.





Likewise...

(perhaps I should have used a smileyface.)
I've found that emojis and smilies are noticed less and less...
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:33 AM   #318
theprestige
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I've found that emojis and smilies are noticed less and less...
I find them distracting and disingenuous. I actually adblock them.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:40 AM   #319
3point14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I find them distracting and disingenuous. I actually adblock them.

I find them very useful for replacing all the non-verbal and paralinguistic communication that's lost in the written word.
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Old 25th January 2019, 06:30 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I find them very useful for replacing all the non-verbal and paralinguistic communication that's lost in the written word.
They don't, though.
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