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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:05 AM   #1
Cain
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Is Toxic Femininity a Thing?

Here's the first hit on my Google (it contains a "TRIGGER WARNING"):

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_femininity

Quote:
Toxic femininity is a term used by Men's rights advocacy activists to construct a False equivalence between Toxic masculinity... There is no such thing as toxic femininity, but Benevolent sexism is a way in which superficially positive beliefs about women harm women and sometimes make it possible for individual women to get away with bad behavior, and Sexism covers the most common ways in which expectations of conventional femininity harm women...

While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare and when it isn't actually self-defense being mischaracterized as an abuse, it happens individualistically, not as part of a patriarchal pattern of political violence. Abuse by women aimed at children is much more common, but the roots of that abuse are also in patriarchy, not femininity. Child abuse is a way in which women can actively participate in supporting patriarchal structure, and Internalized sexism means that women, as well as men, will continue to abuse children as long as patriarchy continues.
OK, that sounds totally fair. I was listening to my NPR affiliate today, and they were discussing toxic masculinity. One guest wanted to steer conversation off-topic to "toxic femininity." I cannot recall his exact definition, but he mentioned women being "manipulative."

My second hit was Bust, which said:

Quote:
If you ask a man about toxic femininity, get ready to hear about alllllll the ladies who couldn’t see what a nice guy he was, and possibly some ******* [effing] disturbing accusations of greediness, stupidity, and shallow ***** [bitchy but with a c] whoreishness from said nice guy.
https://bust.com/feminism/195520-toxic-femininity.html

It's not clear to me that it's necessary to have a term like toxic femininity. Toxic masculinity -- I'm willing to accept that as a thing. Benevolent sexism? Sure, that's real. I think critics of feminism are groping for a term more like "female privilege," or "female entitlement." But those terms have been around for a long, long time.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:11 AM   #2
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Is toxic masculinity a thing?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is toxic masculinity a thing?
..
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:17 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Here's the first hit on my Google (it contains a "TRIGGER WARNING"):

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_femininity



OK, that sounds totally fair. I was listening to my NPR affiliate today, and they were discussing toxic masculinity. One guest wanted to steer conversation off-topic to "toxic femininity." I cannot recall his exact definition, but he mentioned women being "manipulative."

My second hit was Bust, which said:



https://bust.com/feminism/195520-toxic-femininity.html

It's not clear to me that it's necessary to have a term like toxic femininity. Toxic masculinity -- I'm willing to accept that as a thing. Benevolent sexism? Sure, that's real. I think critics of feminism are groping for a term more like "female privilege," or "female entitlement." But those terms have been around for a long, long time.
You can't have one without the other.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:28 AM   #5
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While the attitudes that women are lesser beings and mere chattles of men still thrive such talk will be indistinguishable from whataboutism.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:35 AM   #6
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probably.
but then, there are just people who are toxic.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:38 AM   #7
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Can members of races that are treated as inferior beings be racist themselves?
Yes, of course they can!
Can women be sexist?
Yes, of course. A woman starting a sentence with "All men are such ..." is probably going to present you with a good example of toxic femininity.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Can members of races that are treated as inferior beings be racist themselves?
Yes, of course they can!
Can women be sexist?
Yes, of course. A woman starting a sentence with "All men are such ..." is probably going to present you with a good example of toxic femininity.
The problem comes when the toxic attitudes pervade the power structures. Whether you are talking about prejudice from women or non whites these attitudes are not the foundations of institutionalised oppression* in our societies.

*ETA and normalising power.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:53 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The problem comes when the toxic attitudes pervade the power structures. Whether you are talking about prejudice from women or non whites these attitudes are not the foundations of institutionalised oppression in our societies.
I take it you have evidence these toxic attitudes pervade the power structures.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:06 AM   #10
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If anyone has seen the film Mean Girls, then they've seen an example of 'toxic femininity'.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:12 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I take it you have evidence these toxic attitudes pervade the power structures.
If you think represion of women and belief in their inferiority ended some time in the distant past when they were granted suffrage then you are under the spell of social normalisation of these attitudes.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:21 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you think represion of women and belief in their inferiority ended some time in the distant past when they were granted suffrage then you are under the spell of social normalisation of these attitudes.
Strangely enough I am talking about now. As in 2019.

I haven't made any claims.

You have

"toxic attitudes pervade the power structures." - And highlight against females

If you have no evidence this is fine.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Strangely enough I am talking about now. As in 2019.

I haven't made any claims.

You have

"toxic attitudes pervade the power structures." - And highlight against females

If you have no evidence this is fine.
Do you believe they did 200 years ago?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:51 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Do you believe they did 200 years ago?
Probably in the upper echelons, but apart from a few ruling classes your average punters just worked together to survive.

There were no global corporate board rooms etc
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:03 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Probably in the upper echelons, but apart from a few ruling classes your average punters just worked together to survive.

There were no global corporate board rooms etc
The average punter would have had his wife pledge to honour and obey him. He would have also have taken for granted woman as inferior to men as reflected in those vows. These are attitudes that continue to this day.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:08 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
While the attitudes that women are lesser beings and mere chattles of men still thrive such talk will be indistinguishable from whataboutism.
I belive this justifies our derail though I will not labour this point anymore here.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The average punter would have had his wife pledge to honour and obey him. He would have also have taken for granted woman as inferior to men as reflected in those vows. These are attitudes that continue to this day.
Sorry

But that is pants.

You can quibble words in wedding vows all you like though.

Meanwhile back in 2019

Is there a reason you base your views of sexual equality in 2019 on 100s of years ago?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:37 AM   #18
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
If anyone has seen the film Mean Girls, then they've seen an example of 'toxic femininity'.
It's been a long time since I've seen that movie. I want to say it involves a beautiful and popular woman (popular because she's beautiful) oppressing other women.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Is Toxic Femininity a Thing?
No.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is toxic masculinity a thing?
Yes.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 03:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare...
LOL! What manner of damaged mind comes up with this garbage?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:00 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No.


Yes.
Is toxic transisity a thing?

Is toxic gender fluidity a thing?

Does a trans women automatically lose their toxic masculinity?

Is a trans man not capable of toxic masculinity when they decide to change.

It is all a load of kak
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 23rd January 2019 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Is toxic transisity a thing?

Is toxic gender fluidity a thing?

Does a trans women automatically lose their toxic masculinity?

Is a trans man not capable of toxic masculinity when they decide to change.

It is all a load of kak
These are all minorities to white Christian power.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:31 AM   #24
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Do we have to assign the toxicity to a gender?


Can't it just be 'toxic'? Anyone, of either sex, indulging in bullying and intimidation is being 'toxic', be they male or female.

Anyone indulging in harmful or damaging untrue gossip in an attempt to ruin someone's reputation is being 'toxic', be they male or female.

Why the need to genderise it?

(is gernderise even a word?)
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Do we have to assign the toxicity to a gender?


Can't it just be 'toxic'? Anyone, of either sex, indulging in bullying and intimidation is being 'toxic', be they male or female.

Anyone indulging in harmful or damaging untrue gossip in an attempt to ruin someone's reputation is being 'toxic', be they male or female.

Why the need to genderise it?

(is gernderise even a word?)
In the case of toxic masculinity we do becuase it infects our social structures. When the patriarchy is no longer a thing it may be worthwhile examining but until then it seems to serve muddying the waters in attempts to deconstruct it. Muddying of waters is so popular these days.

This discussion was a popular piece of whataboutism in reponse to the Gillette advert and its calls for men to be better. This is a failure to see or acknowledge the continuing repression of women in societies. We can see clear examples in history but also contemporary cultures like that of Saudi Arabia. We fail to see the less obvious attitudes and practices in our own Western societies. Or we simply underplay their impact.

These attempts to point the finger down at those under social repression will at a minimum appear tools of maintaining power structures.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 04:42 AM   #26
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I would think that anything taken to an extreme would probably be toxic so I would think that if toxic masculinity is a thing on one side there is a counter on the other side that would also be toxic.

Although I would caveat that by saying that its probably less likely to be pervasive in that its probably unlikely for a man to come across a workplace that is it 'toxicly feminine'

I would think that there are examples of women using their sexuality to get what they want in a way that probably harms men and other women and would say that's probably 'toxic femininity' but the key difference, which i think is what the quote in the OP is getting at, is that in that situation the man can simply walk away and be at no great loss. He doesn't have to involve himself in that and is choosing to, so he is still retaining the power.

I think this goes back to the age old question where there is a power imbalance is it OK to use sneaky tactics and unethical behaviour to overcome the stronger party?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:25 AM   #27
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Well, guys: I found a girl who is in fact toxic and admits to it:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:44 AM   #28
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Women are mere reflectors of the toxic attitudes of the prevailing power structures. They are inherently incapable of contributing to or shaping the toxicity of those attitudes because they're weak and passive and insignificant, while men generate toxicity every moment of every day. Even when they're asleep. And what are they doing sleeping anyhow? They should be up working, so we can get ahead and move out of this crappy neighborhood and have a nice lawn and not have that dripping faucet I've been telling you for three weeks needs to be fixed. But that's toxic power structures for you.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:50 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Women are mere reflectors of the toxic attitudes of the prevailing power structures. They are inherently incapable of contributing to or shaping the toxicity of those attitudes because they're weak and passive and insignificant, while men generate toxicity every moment of every day. Even when they're asleep. And what are they doing sleeping anyhow? They should be up working, so we can get ahead and move out of this crappy neighborhood and have a nice lawn and not have that dripping faucet I've been telling you for three weeks needs to be fixed. But that's toxic power structures for you.
Straw woman.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:55 AM   #30
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If we are looking for a "Toxic Femininity" that is equivalent to "Toxic Masculinity" it would need to have the same core features.

Most people who bring up this argument seem to be looking for common toxic behaviors exhibited by women and girls. But that's missing the meaning of the original phrase. It doesn't just mean that men can be toxic, it points out where toxic behavior is celebrated, encouraged, used as a gatekeeper to masculinity or at a minimum excused as a natural and inescapable part of being male. Toxic Masculinity isn't that boys fight each other on the playground, its the forces that encouraged and excuse them out in the world. Toxic Masculinity isn't about toxic behavior by men, its about toxic expectations of men. Men and women both help create those expectations.

One of the reasons we don't see much of the term "toxic femininity" is that most of the toxic ideas around what a person must do to be feminine were the first things on the chopping block for feminism. Toxic expectations for women have been discussed for a long time and we've got even more fine grained terms for many ways those toxic expectations manifest.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Here's the first hit on my Google (it contains a "TRIGGER WARNING"):

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_femininity



OK, that sounds totally fair. I was listening to my NPR affiliate today, and they were discussing toxic masculinity. One guest wanted to steer conversation off-topic to "toxic femininity." I cannot recall his exact definition, but he mentioned women being "manipulative."

My second hit was Bust, which said:

https://bust.com/feminism/195520-toxic-femininity.html

It's not clear to me that it's necessary to have a term like toxic femininity. Toxic masculinity -- I'm willing to accept that as a thing. Benevolent sexism? Sure, that's real. I think critics of feminism are groping for a term more like "female privilege," or "female entitlement." But those terms have been around for a long, long time.
"While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare"

Standard lying by feminist activists. No surprise, really.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:57 AM   #32
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In the sense that I understand it, that “toxic” anything is sort of an insistence/adherence on/to some stereotypes that are overall damaging or unnecessarily obnoxious, yes. “Mean Girls,” as cited above. Though in sociology talk there’s probably some extra power structure macguffin like with racism vs bigotry. I do wish there was a less inflammatory term, I see where it’s coming from but it gets under a lot of people’s skin. Is there a general term for this stereotype-embracing-come-hell-or-high-water thing?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:00 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
"While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare"

Standard lying by feminist activists. No surprise, really.
I particularly enjoyed the assertion in the first link that child abuse by women is caused by "the patriarchy".
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:06 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I particularly enjoyed the assertion in the first link asserting that child abuse by women is caused by "the patriarchy".
I didn't feel the need to highlight the rest of the paragraph since it mostly comes from definition shifting and lying by omission, multiplying the insanity by 1000. Not sure how someone can see even the first line as "fair", tbh
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:08 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Women are mere reflectors of the toxic attitudes of the prevailing power structures. They are inherently incapable of contributing to or shaping the toxicity of those attitudes because they're weak and passive and insignificant, while men generate toxicity every moment of every day. Even when they're asleep. And what are they doing sleeping anyhow? They should be up working, so we can get ahead and move out of this crappy neighborhood and have a nice lawn and not have that dripping faucet I've been telling you for three weeks needs to be fixed. But that's toxic power structures for you.
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Straw woman.
"While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare and when it isn't actually self-defense being mischaracterized as an abuse, it happens individualistically, not as part of a patriarchal pattern of political violence. Abuse by women aimed at children is much more common, but the roots of that abuse are also in patriarchy, not femininity. Child abuse is a way in which women can actively participate in supporting patriarchal structure, and Internalized sexism means that women, as well as men, will continue to abuse children as long as patriarchy continues."
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:10 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
probably.
but then, there are just people who are toxic.
That'd be my take. There are individual behaviours that are toxic. That sounds more constructive than talking about toxic masculinity or femininity or salinity.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:14 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The problem comes when the toxic attitudes pervade the power structures. Whether you are talking about prejudice from women or non whites these attitudes are not the foundations of institutionalised oppression* in our societies.
They're still a problem, right? I wouldn't want us to ignore toxic behaviour now based on the fact that we today deem that people in the past who shared some characteristics with thev ones with said toxic behaviour were oppressed.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:19 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The average punter would have had his wife pledge to honour and obey him. He would have also have taken for granted woman as inferior to men as reflected in those vows. These are attitudes that continue to this day.
When my mother married my father back in the 60s she had to say "I do" to the priest asking her to take the vow to obey my father. I can say with 100% certainty that she, at no point in her life, ever obeyed him. Vows are words, and a religious marriage is a ritual. It doesn't necessarily reflect the reality at the moment.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
These are all minorities to white Christian power.
White Christian power? What era are you living in?

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No.
So there is no such thing as behaviour by women as a group that can be toxic? That sounds very sexist.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
"While abuse by women aimed at adult men exists, it's exceedingly rare and when it isn't actually self-defense being mischaracterized as an abuse, it happens individualistically, not as part of a patriarchal pattern of political violence. Abuse by women aimed at children is much more common, but the roots of that abuse are also in patriarchy, not femininity. Child abuse is a way in which women can actively participate in supporting patriarchal structure, and Internalized sexism means that women, as well as men, will continue to abuse children as long as patriarchy continues."
Wow, the misandry in that paragraph actually hurts.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Is Toxic Femininity a Thing?
Yes.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is toxic masculinity a thing?
Yes.

Both masculinity and femininity refer to a set of behaviours and norms culturally associated with one's gender. If you take them too far, they can easily become toxic, or at least harmful.

To take a relatively common example, my generation was raised to believe men should make the first move when it comes to dating, sex, marriage, etc. Taken in moderation, the idea helps clarify roles during an otherwise tricky process. Taken too far we will have women failing to make a move when they would rather like to see a given relationship flourish into more, not to mention men shouting unsolicited sexual remarks to women on the street. The latter is more readily identifiable as socially toxic, but the former could have significant opportunity costs to the person who has internalized the norms in play.
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