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Old 23rd January 2019, 09:11 AM   #41
TragicMonkey
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Y'all must not be from the South. Toxic femininity? It can be freaking radioactive. The way certain Southern girls treat each other...it's horrific, and all done with fake smiles. The targets of toxic femininity are other women, men are only incidental, used as tools for toxic women to hurt each other. Toxic masculinity is men being ********. Toxic femininity is women playing goddamn Game of Thrones with each other, minus the shreds of decency.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 09:45 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Both masculinity and femininity refer to a set of behaviours and norms culturally associated with one's gender. If you take them too far, they can easily become toxic, or at least harmful.
So many of you are assuming that because there's toxic masculinity, toxic femininity must exist. OK, so what are the family of behaviors associated with it?

From the previous mentioned Bust article:

Quote:
The Good Men Project defines toxic masculinity this way:

Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away.

...

Toxic femininity is a narrow and repressive description of womanhood, designating womanhood as defined by cooperation, sexual subservience, status, and passivity. It’s the cultural ideal of womanliness, where the ability to please is everything while troublesomeness is a weakness; where beauty and ability to make men feel good are yardsticks by which women are measured, while supposedly “masculine” traits—which can range from expressing anger to sexual independence — are the means by which your status as “woman” can be taken away.

Oh my god, you guys.

LOL.

This is so accurate that I need a goddamn inhaler and an ice pack. This is maybe the best description I’ve ever heard of life as a lady in the patriarchy.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 09:49 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
So many of you are assuming that because there's toxic masculinity, toxic femininity must exist. OK, so what are the family of behaviors associated with it?
I provided one example of femininity taken to an unhealthy extreme. How many do you require?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:18 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Y'all must not be from the South. Toxic femininity? It can be freaking radioactive. The way certain Southern girls treat each other...it's horrific, and all done with fake smiles. The targets of toxic femininity are other women, men are only incidental, used as tools for toxic women to hurt each other. Toxic masculinity is men being ********. Toxic femininity is women playing goddamn Game of Thrones with each other, minus the shreds of decency.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:19 AM   #45
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It's nowhere near as prevalent or harmful in practice as toxic masculinity.

Think of the last time a teenage guy got murdered by a woman for refusing her aggressive advances.

Last edited by Venom; 23rd January 2019 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's nowhere near as prevalent or harmful in practice as toxic masculinity.

Think of the last time a teenage guy got murdered by a woman for refusing her aggressive advances.
Even if that did happen, it would not be an example of taking femininity too far.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:45 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's nowhere near as prevalent or harmful in practice as toxic masculinity.

Think of the last time a teenage guy got murdered by a woman for refusing her aggressive advances.
Murder isn't so prevalent.

If we lump *some* types of murder as "toxic masculinity" (maybe not a terrible idea, as long as we're consistent) then I would agree that the most extreme forms of toxic masculinity are more harmful.

But toxic femininity obviously won't be the exact same behaviors, so the harm may or may not be more prevalent whether each act is more harmful or not.

An extreme I would consider*** "toxic femininity" would be Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001555.htm

or

parental alienation (abusing the legal system to alienate children from their parents) AND/OR cuckolding

or

false allegations of <sexual/violent thing>

***I don't like either term: toxic femininity/masculinity. I accept both or neither, but think that their general use is divisive and pointless (let's not kid ourselves, it's almost exclusively "toxic masculinity" being used as a tool to shame and blame men - even "toxic femininity" was redirected onto the "patriarchy" in the OP)
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:49 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Y'all must not be from the South. Toxic femininity? It can be freaking radioactive. The way certain Southern girls treat each other...it's horrific, and all done with fake smiles. The targets of toxic femininity are other women, men are only incidental, used as tools for toxic women to hurt each other. Toxic masculinity is men being ********. Toxic femininity is women playing goddamn Game of Thrones with each other, minus the shreds of decency.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Words said by a southern lady shortly before verbally eviscerating someone:

"God bless him, but..."
"She/he tries so hard, you know, ..."
"Well, you know what kind of life he/she has had..."

ETA: I think the whole "more in sorrow than in anger" routine was invented in that environment! Although I suppose it's billed as "more in sympathy than in ridicule".

Last edited by Hellbound; 23rd January 2019 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:50 AM   #49
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The people that believe in in the concept of toxic masculinity (which by definition means all males are toxic), tend to be the same people that believe sex and gender can be fluid and people can switch between them at will.

You would think they would just turn into males and they wouldn't have to live their horrible lives oppressed by men.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:52 AM   #50
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Is toxic femininity a thing?? I see you haven't spent much time on tumblr.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:53 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The people that believe in in the concept of toxic masculinity (which by definition means all males are toxic), tend to be the same people that believe sex and gender can be fluid and people can switch between them at will.

You would think they would just turn into males and they wouldn't have to live their horrible lives oppressed by men.
There is nothing in this post that is correct. This is not how transgender works.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:56 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
There is nothing in this post that is correct. This is not how transgender works.
I'm not sure cullennz was refering to people with actual gender disphoria, but to a caricature of them held up even by the left.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The people that believe in in the concept of toxic masculinity (which by definition means all males are toxic), tend to be the same people that believe sex and gender can be fluid and people can switch between them at will.

You would think they would just turn into males and they wouldn't have to live their horrible lives oppressed by men.
Now I'm imagining a dystopia where the Matriarchy recognizes gender dysphoria, and fully supports people transitioning if they need to... But only allows FTM transitions if the resulting "M" conforms to social constructs of femininity - Thus negating the entire point of the transition and leaving the sufferer no better off.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:56 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Y'all must not be from the South. Toxic femininity? It can be freaking radioactive. The way certain Southern girls treat each other...it's horrific, and all done with fake smiles. The targets of toxic femininity are other women, men are only incidental, used as tools for toxic women to hurt each other. Toxic masculinity is men being ********. Toxic femininity is women playing goddamn Game of Thrones with each other, minus the shreds of decency.
Bless your heart...

Southern women are scary.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:58 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not sure cullennz was refering to people with actual gender disphoria, but to a caricature of them held up even by the left.
I can honestly say I have never seen/read such a representation outside of the alt right.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:58 AM   #56
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Sure I think it is, but trying to equate it to toxic masculinity is likely wrong. I see it in the ways women pressure themselves to do more housework, do more emotional labor and so on. So it ends up with very different victims but could be well regarded as toxic.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 12:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure I think it is, but trying to equate it to toxic masculinity is likely wrong. I see it in the ways women pressure themselves to do more housework, do more emotional labor and so on. So it ends up with very different victims but could be well regarded as toxic.
different victims?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 12:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The people that believe in in the concept of toxic masculinity (which by definition means all males are toxic),
You do know that those statements are totally unconnected right?

Toxic masculinity is simply harmful effects from how society has conditioned people to view what is masculine. So it is the refusal to talk about feelings as only sissys cry, and so on. It is not at all defining men as by definition toxic.

This is like suggesting that racism still exists (which by definition means all white people are evil).
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Old 23rd January 2019, 12:09 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I can honestly say I have never seen/read such a representation outside of the alt right.
Well you have to watch some pretty silly people on Youtube to be aware of that. I guess there's a bit of a fad on the very far left that oppression gives you brownie points and so the teens confused about their sexuality try to fit the mold by claiming to be part of some super-minority.

I'm not sure one could make a case that the left as a whole is falling prey to this, but the caricature isn't without foundation. It's just that the people represented by the caricature aren't actually trans.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 12:11 PM   #60
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The minute I opened this thread, I knew that transgenderism would be brought up. Yep.

Truth is toxic masculinity isn't a thing. Toxic femininity isn't a thing. Being toxic is a thing...and both/all sexes/genders/whatever-we-are-calling-what-people-identify-as-today can be toxic.

I don't see how hard this is to understand. And I agree with TM since I live in the South. Men's machinations towards other men is simply children's games compared to the nefarious, over-the-top, destroy-the-other-at-all-costs plotting that I have seen southern women do to each other.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 12:16 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

Toxic masculinity is simply harmful effects from how society has conditioned people to view what is masculine. So it is the refusal to talk about feelings as only sissys cry, and so on. It is not at all defining men as by definition toxic.
This sounds incredibly vague

What are the exact socially conditioned "toxic" masculine traits and what are the "good" masculine traits?

If all the people who believe in "toxic masculinity" can put together lists it would make everything a lot clearer.

I'll give you a hand to start

"Aggression": - Now which types of aggression are good and which are bad?

Is physical aggression bad? Should men stop playing rugby?

Is mental aggression bad? Should men not aggressively seek to achieve a goal. Does it depend on what the goal is?

etc etc etc
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Old 23rd January 2019, 12:28 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This sounds incredibly vague

What are the exact socially conditioned "toxic" masculine traits and what are the "good" masculine traits?

If all the people who believe in "toxic masculinity" can put together lists it would make everything a lot clearer.
Easy when it becomes a problem. That is the thing the traits may not be bad in all instances, but when reinforced by culture they become exaggerated to unhealthy degrees.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The problem comes when the toxic attitudes pervade the power structures. Whether you are talking about prejudice from women or non whites these attitudes are not the foundations of institutionalised oppression* in our societies.

*ETA and normalising power.
Power is entirely situational, you cannot apply a single dynamic with any degree of accuracy.

If I work in pharmacy in Canada for example, and I were to be of a racist bent, I'm not going to last (with good cause) change that to farming, and I probably still have my job.

Everyone has issues to work on, you don't get a free pass because some people like you (or you) were treated poorly. This very premise is what is creating so much backlash against the left lately.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:37 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's nowhere near as prevalent or harmful in practice as toxic masculinity.

Think of the last time a teenage guy got murdered by a woman for refusing her aggressive advances.
I can think of a few who killed themselves after especially viscous "pranks" by females.

But I'm going to guess that doesn't count because they should have been tough enough to take it.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 01:41 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You do know that those statements are totally unconnected right?

Toxic masculinity is simply harmful effects from how society has conditioned people to view what is masculine. So it is the refusal to talk about feelings as only sissys cry, and so on. It is not at all defining men as by definition toxic.

This is like suggesting that racism still exists (which by definition means all white people are evil).
Who are you, or anyone else, to tell me how to live my life. I get to decide how, and when, I express my emotions.

Essentially you are saying "Everyone gets to decide how they express their emotions, except men who don't cry over everything."

It's the equivalent of the recent phenomenon of being proud of your body image . . . unless by some arbitrary measure you are too thin, then they can kick you out of university.

That's Toxic SJWing in my view. An agenda that intrudes on people's personal choices.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I provided one example of femininity taken to an unhealthy extreme. How many do you require?
I asked for the family of behaviors.

Honestly, though, I did not see your example. I was in a hurry this morning.

Quote:
To take a relatively common example, my generation was raised to believe men should make the first move when it comes to dating, sex, marriage, etc. Taken in moderation, the idea helps clarify roles during an otherwise tricky process. Taken too far we will have women failing to make a move when they would rather like to see a given relationship flourish into more, not to mention men shouting unsolicited sexual remarks to women on the street. The latter is more readily identifiable as socially toxic, but the former could have significant opportunity costs to the person who has internalized the norms in play.
Except women do initiate, albeit in more subtle fashion (e.g., laughing at comments that are not remarkably funny, eye contact, asking a man's opinion about something). Women today are more likely to initiate than in the past, so are we to believe that this facet of "toxic femininity" is on the decline? Female passivity can be explained as a "logical" consequence of "male power structures": Women are reluctant to take an interest in men as they might be labeled a "slut."

There was a great, though predictably overlooked post in the masculinity thread where a user commented on "the inherent inconsistency in modern feminism." http://www.internationalskeptics.com...m#post12562457

Simply by swiping a woman on a dating app can say she likes a particular man first -- without fear of embarrassment. If they match, she can initiate contact. On some apps she can make it so that only she is allowed to initiate a conversation (even if there's a match). So what happens? Are men relieved of the burden of initiating? Well, sure -- some men. Specifically, the most desirable men.

The Red Pillers and others guilty of "toxic masculinity" will argue that this harms women as they will have less stable relationships. They will be used -- "pumped and dumped" -- by high-status/good-looking males. It will also harm lower-status males as they will not have partners at all.

When I have students discuss polygamy, females often object on the grounds that it diminishes their value as women (since a single man attracts multiple mates). But monogamy is not an expression of equality between the sexes; it's an expression of equality among men. In a free-market where women (especially) are permitted greater sexual autonomy, the dominance of high status males increases. The patriarchs in the Old Testament had multiple wives.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:14 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The people that believe in in the concept of toxic masculinity (which by definition means all males are toxic), tend to be the same people that believe sex and gender can be fluid and people can switch between them at will.

You would think they would just turn into males and they wouldn't have to live their horrible lives oppressed by men.
Cool. Take it to another thread.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 02:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
The minute I opened this thread, I knew that transgenderism would be brought up. Yep.

Truth is toxic masculinity isn't a thing. Toxic femininity isn't a thing. Being toxic is a thing...and both/all sexes/genders/whatever-we-are-calling-what-people-identify-as-today can be toxic.

I don't see how hard this is to understand. And I agree with TM since I live in the South. Men's machinations towards other men is simply children's games compared to the nefarious, over-the-top, destroy-the-other-at-all-costs plotting that I have seen southern women do to each other.
Agreed. It's going to be very confusing otherwise.

ETA: Although not from the South my brothers ex-wife is a piece of work.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 05:44 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I asked for the family of behaviors.
I'd be happy to provide (possibly hypothetical) examples, for any given masculine/feminine dichotomy.

Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Women today are more likely to initiate than in the past, so are we to believe that this facet of "toxic femininity" is on the decline?
I certainly hope so. Anything which makes it easier for people to express their true selves to one another is rather probably for the best, IMO.

Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Female passivity can be explained as a "logical" consequence of "male power structures": Women are reluctant to take an interest in men as they might be labeled a "slut."
It feels like you may have may a logical leap too far for me to follow here. Is it so hard to imagine a world in which women achieve adequate power at all levels and still continue to slut shame each other? One of the few ineluctable biological inequities is in play here, after all.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 05:53 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is it so hard to imagine a world in which women achieve adequate power at all levels and still continue to slut shame each other?
Not at all. I thought the scare quotes (along with the rest of my post) sufficiently implied that I, personally, would not find such an explanation terribly compelling.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 05:55 PM   #71
Venom
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Even if that did happen, it would not be an example of taking femininity too far.
Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Murder isn't so prevalent.

If we lump *some* types of murder as "toxic masculinity" (maybe not a terrible idea, as long as we're consistent) then I would agree that the most extreme forms of toxic masculinity are more harmful.

But toxic femininity obviously won't be the exact same behaviors, so the harm may or may not be more prevalent whether each act is more harmful or not.

An extreme I would consider*** "toxic femininity" would be Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001555.htm

or

parental alienation (abusing the legal system to alienate children from their parents) AND/OR cuckolding

or

false allegations of <sexual/violent thing>

***I don't like either term: toxic femininity/masculinity. I accept both or neither, but think that their general use is divisive and pointless (let's not kid ourselves, it's almost exclusively "toxic masculinity" being used as a tool to shame and blame men - even "toxic femininity" was redirected onto the "patriarchy" in the OP)
agreed
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Old 23rd January 2019, 05:58 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
But monogamy is not an expression of equality between the sexes; it's an expression of equality among men. In a free-market where women (especially) are permitted greater sexual autonomy, the dominance of high status males increases. The patriarchs in the Old Testament had multiple wives.
The OT patriarchy was a situation where the women were expected to be monogamous but the men weren't.

In a situation where both sexes are equally polygamous, the high status individuals of both sexes will dominate equally.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 06:24 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Y'all must not be from the South. Toxic femininity? It can be freaking radioactive. The way certain Southern girls treat each other...it's horrific, and all done with fake smiles. The targets of toxic femininity are other women, men are only incidental, used as tools for toxic women to hurt each other. Toxic masculinity is men being ********. Toxic femininity is women playing goddamn Game of Thrones with each other, minus the shreds of decency.
Thank you, TM. I couldn't have made the point that well.

As a male teacher in a rural Southern high school in the late 70's/early 80's, I saw the predominately female faculty outdo the students in venom.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 06:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well you have to watch some pretty silly people on Youtube to be aware of that. I guess there's a bit of a fad on the very far left that oppression gives you brownie points and so the teens confused about their sexuality try to fit the mold by claiming to be part of some super-minority.

I'm not sure one could make a case that the left as a whole is falling prey to this, but the caricature isn't without foundation. It's just that the people represented by the caricature aren't actually trans.
My son is trans, and I can verify from him and the other trans people I know that this is not what being trans means. Transgender is rare. Gender as a construct is not reflective of human nature in general, which leads to misunderstanding and confusion, though.

As for toxic(adjective)ity, toxic people are toxic. My ex husband is toxic, and he uses whatever device falls to hand to reflect his toxicity.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 06:38 PM   #75
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Toxic masculinity: "Hey, let's kick sand in the face of the dweeb! Hey bozo! DYEL, bro?! Huh huh huh!"

Toxic femininity: "And like, Omigod, did you see what she was wearing? I mean, come on, you don't have to be homeless to wear that stuff, but it helps amirite girls?"
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:40 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I asked for the family of behaviors.

Honestly, though, I did not see your example. I was in a hurry this morning.



Except women do initiate, albeit in more subtle fashion (e.g., laughing at comments that are not remarkably funny, eye contact, asking a man's opinion about something). Women today are more likely to initiate than in the past, so are we to believe that this facet of "toxic femininity" is on the decline? Female passivity can be explained as a "logical" consequence of "male power structures": Women are reluctant to take an interest in men as they might be labeled a "slut."

There was a great, though predictably overlooked post in the masculinity thread where a user commented on "the inherent inconsistency in modern feminism." http://www.internationalskeptics.com...m#post12562457

Simply by swiping a woman on a dating app can say she likes a particular man first -- without fear of embarrassment. If they match, she can initiate contact. On some apps she can make it so that only she is allowed to initiate a conversation (even if there's a match). So what happens? Are men relieved of the burden of initiating? Well, sure -- some men. Specifically, the most desirable men.

The Red Pillers and others guilty of "toxic masculinity" will argue that this harms women as they will have less stable relationships. They will be used -- "pumped and dumped" -- by high-status/good-looking males. It will also harm lower-status males as they will not have partners at all.

When I have students discuss polygamy, females often object on the grounds that it diminishes their value as women (since a single man attracts multiple mates). But monogamy is not an expression of equality between the sexes; it's an expression of equality among men. In a free-market where women (especially) are permitted greater sexual autonomy, the dominance of high status males increases. The patriarchs in the Old Testament had multiple wives.
Have you read this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ession/573949/

A substantive portion of it touches on the themes being discussed here.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 07:59 PM   #77
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In a situation where both sexes are equally polygamous, the high status individuals of both sexes will dominate equally.
Only one way to test this, but I doubt it would get past the IRB.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:06 PM   #78
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Toxic femininity...

Too much pink?
Flowery patterned furniture?
The invention of glitter?
Forcing poodles to wear ribbons in their hair?
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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:19 PM   #79
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Oh the humanity!

.... won't anyone think of the children/dogs?



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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In a situation where both sexes are equally polygamous, the high status individuals of both sexes will dominate equally.
Not at all. Attractiveness in women is distributed on a low, wide, semi-flattened version of the bell curve. For men, it skews hard to the left. Women put 80% of the male population below the midpoint on the scale, more than a quarter in the bottom level or two, and so few at the top that it tends to disappear into the zero line if you try to graph it.

Mathematically, there's no way to escape the fact that most couples in a predominantly 1:1 system necessarily involve a woman settling for a man she never actually wanted, and a system in which women chose to be with who they really want would be nowhere near 1:1 but instead a bunch of entirely voluntary harems excluding most men.
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