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Old 23rd January 2019, 08:39 PM   #81
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Oh the humanity!

.... won't anyone think of the children/dogs?



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/b5...17008f69b7.jpg
I am guessing those are yours?
If so, I can't blame you for that.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 10:02 PM   #82
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The quick answer is yes, the slightly longer answer is yes, but not in the way that the MRA groups like to claim.

Toxic Masculism is when socially attributed traits of Masculinity are taken to a point where they harm the person themselves, or those around them. Things such as not showing emotion because men just need to harden up, or being willing to solve issues with your fists.

The issue is that MRA's then take these things and say "women do it too" and flip that to call these actions in women "Toxic Femininity", but this is wrong. Just like Toxic Masculinity, Toxic Femininity is when socially set standards of femininity become harmful to the person following them, or those around them.

Things such as Bulimia and Anorexia are the results of Toxic Femininity, the body image that is put onto women to be thin and perfect in body shape. A belief that you are unworthy, worth less, stupid, or less able by being a woman is another example of Toxic Femininity.

That doesn't mean that women can't be cruel, violent, bullying, hateful, rude, arrogant, and bitchy, they can, and many are a lot of the time, but these traits are not ones we associate with being feminine, and thus are never Toxic Femininity, even though many MRAs like to try and claim it so.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:29 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Things such as Bulimia and Anorexia are the results of Toxic Femininity, the body image that is put onto women to be thin and perfect in body shape.
Have you seen Kim Kardashian's ass lately? Men do not promote thin as being the perfect body. That's a female thing.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:36 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The quick answer is yes, the slightly longer answer is yes, but not in the way that the MRA groups like to claim.

Toxic Masculism is when socially attributed traits of Masculinity are taken to a point where they harm the person themselves, or those around them. Things such as not showing emotion because men just need to harden up, or being willing to solve issues with your fists.

The issue is that MRA's then take these things and say "women do it too" and flip that to call these actions in women "Toxic Femininity", but this is wrong. Just like Toxic Masculinity, Toxic Femininity is when socially set standards of femininity become harmful to the person following them, or those around them.

Things such as Bulimia and Anorexia are the results of Toxic Femininity, the body image that is put onto women to be thin and perfect in body shape. A belief that you are unworthy, worth less, stupid, or less able by being a woman is another example of Toxic Femininity.

That doesn't mean that women can't be cruel, violent, bullying, hateful, rude, arrogant, and bitchy, they can, and many are a lot of the time, but these traits are not ones we associate with being feminine, and thus are never Toxic Femininity, even though many MRAs like to try and claim it so.

Agree with this point, but the problem is a lot of women blame men for this and the imaginary pressure to look good.

Which is odd, as the pressure comes from other women
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:53 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
An extreme I would consider "toxic femininity" would be Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001555.htm

or

parental alienation (abusing the legal system to alienate children from their parents) AND/OR cuckolding

or

false allegations of <sexual/violent thing>
These are interesting examples.
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Old 23rd January 2019, 11:59 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Have you seen Kim Kardashian's ass lately? Men do not promote thin as being the perfect body. That's a female thing.
Sure, but nobody in this thread, so far as I know, is blaming men for that. The instagram nonsense "#Ana" or "#WithAna" was driven by young women. I wouldn't be surprised if the authors of the first quote in the OP somehow blamed "the patriarchy" because poor, little girls "internalized" a "false consciousness," but the pressure to be thin can be driven by, well, a kind of toxic feminism.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:03 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Have you seen Kim Kardashian's ass lately? Men do not promote thin as being the perfect body. That's a female thing.
Who said it was men's fault? I stated it was a form of Toxic Femininity, not that men pressured them into it.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Agree with this point, but the problem is a lot of women blame men for this and the imaginary pressure to look good.

Which is odd, as the pressure comes from other women
I don't think that women do blame men for it, much of the pressure comes from the way women are portrayed in the media and as a lot of media comes online, by celebrities who portray unreal standards as "normal."
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:16 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Have you read this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ession/573949/

A substantive portion of it touches on the themes being discussed here.
I want to say I've been reading that article for years. It's long, so I skimmed some sections, but it presents a compelling overview of the current landscape. I had not heard about fifth base.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:18 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Who said it was men's fault? I stated it was a form of Toxic Femininity, not that men pressured them into it.



I don't think that women do blame men for it, much of the pressure comes from the way women are portrayed in the media and as a lot of media comes online, by celebrities who portray unreal standards as "normal."


Weird thing with eating disorders is that even though men make up a tiny proportion of eating disorders they are going up as fast as women are.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...in-nhs-figures
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:55 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
. . . celebrities who portray unreal standards as "normal."
It is a strange person who thinks a celebrity, as in: movie star, super model, etc., is the standard of "normal."

They are celebrities specifically because they are not normal.
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:01 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It is a strange person who thinks a celebrity, as in: movie star, super model, etc., is the standard of "normal."

They are celebrities specifically because they are not normal.
When the media portrays it as being normal, then people start to see it as normal and believe it is normal, and if they don't meet the standard they see on TV, in movies, and magazines, where even "ugly" people are beautiful, then they start to question their own appearance and end up with body issues.

Whether we like it or not, the media creates and packages an image of what both men and women should look like and tells you that this is "normal," they have for a very long time, from artists that painted more curvy women during the Renaissance to the advertisers early last century, who convinced women to shave their legs and armpits, and more recently, other places, through to the artists that airbrush the models on the covers of women's fashion mags.

You might consider it strange, but it's also reality
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:07 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
When the media portrays it as being normal, then people start to see it as normal and believe it is normal, and if they don't meet the standard they see on TV, in movies, and magazines, where even "ugly" people are beautiful, then they start to question their own appearance and end up with body issues.

Whether we like it or not, the media creates and packages an image of what both men and women should look like and tells you that this is "normal," they have for a very long time, from artists that painted more curvy women during the Renaissance to the advertisers early last century, who convinced women to shave their legs and armpits, and more recently, other places, through to the artists that airbrush the models on the covers of women's fashion mags.

You might consider it strange, but it's also reality
That is true

Not sure if I'd say normal though.

More the ideal, or what you need to be.

Which women seem a lot more prone to latch on to.
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:17 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Sorry

But that is pants.

You can quibble words in wedding vows all you like though.

Meanwhile back in 2019

Is there a reason you base your views of sexual equality in 2019 on 100s of years ago?
1985 is not hundreds of years ago. That was the year in New Zealand in which for the very first time a man could be charged with raping his wife.

Of course things are getting better, and 1985 isn't 2019 but attitudes don't change instantly.
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:29 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Agree with this point, but the problem is a lot of women blame men for this and the imaginary pressure to look good.

Which is odd, as the pressure comes from other women
What's even odder is acting like these are women's problems. Not only do men have both of those, but they also have a third one, focused not on eating but on weightlifting.

Source of women's slight, minor pressure about looks: women
Source of men's far more intense & ubiquitous pressure about looks: women
That's toxic. And maybe so is thinking there's more pressure on your group when the standard public message for your group is so full of positivity and the standard public message for the other group is all negativity & hostility.
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Old 24th January 2019, 04:07 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Who are you, or anyone else, to tell me how to live my life. I get to decide how, and when, I express my emotions.

Essentially you are saying "Everyone gets to decide how they express their emotions, except men who don't cry over everything."
Exactly that is toxic masculinity right there. Remember boys don't cry.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:54 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Gender as a construct is not reflective of human nature in general
Could you clarify what you mean by that?
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:56 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Agree with this point, but the problem is a lot of women blame men for this and the imaginary pressure to look good.

Which is odd, as the pressure comes from other women
Indeed. I don't know a man who likes very very thin women.
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Old 24th January 2019, 06:06 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Is toxic femininity a thing?? I see you haven't spent much time on tumblr.
Exactly this! Take a dive on tumblr and it's scary.

While I agree that anyone can be toxic we do have to agree that some of the behaviors can be linked all or mostly to a certain gender. For females, how about getting away with things in a public or workplace environment by playing the sexual harassment card? I work in a plant and I see first hand how supervisors are afraid to write up a female for the same thing they would a male employee for fear of being accused of sexual harassment. Not all of the female workers do it, but enough do, and have been taught to use that to their advantage whenever possible. I would consider that female toxicity.
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:01 AM   #99
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I sometimes find Pharpaisís vitriol escapes a bit freely into his posts but many of his contributions here and his examples (munchausen by proxy etc) are IMO spot on.

Btw Iím pleasantly amazed that this thread isnít a huge dumpster fire.

Iíll again echo the sentiment that I wish the sociology folks had settled on a less easily misinterpreted term for what is IMO a useful concept. Itís jargon, sure, but when it escapes into common use it jerks a lot of knees.
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:21 AM   #100
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What about toxic hermaphrodity?
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:38 AM   #101
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Toxic femininity ≠ Being toxic while female

Tonya Harding did some toxic things but she didn't do those things because they were an expression of hyperfemininity. We are generally socialized to believe physical aggression is a masculine rather than feminine trait.

The same goes for many of the examples given upthread. They cannot be reasonably thought to be related to any popular conception of femininity. Southern belles are perhaps the obvious exception here, since "mean girls" using social influence to immiserate other girls seems to be sort of an example of extreme femininity (assuming I'm groking pop culture correctly).
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:10 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Toxic femininity ≠ Being toxic while female

Tonya Harding did some toxic things but she didn't do those things because they were an expression of hyperfemininity. We are generally socialized to believe physical aggression is a masculine rather than feminine trait.

The same goes for many of the examples given upthread. They cannot be reasonably thought to be related to any popular conception of femininity. Southern belles are perhaps the obvious exception here, since "mean girls" using social influence to immiserate other girls seems to be sort of an example of extreme femininity (assuming I'm groking pop culture correctly).
This new TERF thing could be categorised as toxic femininity.

Actually radical feminism as a whole
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:17 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This new TERF thing could be categorised as toxic femininity.

Actually radical feminism as a whole
You must be rolling w/ different radfems than the ones I've met; they tend to find femininity entirely off-putting and even oppressive.
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:27 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You must be rolling w/ different radfems than the ones I've met; they tend to find femininity entirely off-putting and even oppressive.
What a coincidence

Same with blokes and what has been categorised as toxic masculinity on this thread,

Uncanny

It is almost like the whole concept that entire groups can be tarnished with "toxicity" is utter *******

Oh. It is.
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:39 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Not at all. Attractiveness in women is distributed on a low, wide, semi-flattened version of the bell curve. For men, it skews hard to the left. Women put 80% of the male population below the midpoint on the scale, more than a quarter in the bottom level or two, and so few at the top that it tends to disappear into the zero line if you try to graph it.

Mathematically, there's no way to escape the fact that most couples in a predominantly 1:1 system necessarily involve a woman settling for a man she never actually wanted, and a system in which women chose to be with who they really want would be nowhere near 1:1 but instead a bunch of entirely voluntary harems excluding most men.
Can you give me a source for your numbers?

Status and desirability involves a lot more than physical appearance. Things like intelligence and sense of humor matter a lot, probably much more than the "drop dead gorgeous" vs "average" aspect.

The claim that most pair-bonded women in the western world are "settling" for their mate seems kinda preposterous to me. I also don't know and have never known a single woman who wanted to be (or would be willing to be) one of several girlfriends or wives.
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:41 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It is almost like the whole concept that entire groups can be tarnished with "toxicity" is utter *******
Noting that some people take certain pervasive social norms (e.g. "Men should take the initiative in dating," "Women should be nurturing and protective.") way too far is just a plain statement of fact. It isn't an attempt to smear men or women in general.
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:44 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What a coincidence

Same with blokes and what has been categorised as toxic masculinity on this thread,

Uncanny

It is almost like the whole concept that entire groups can be tarnished with "toxicity" is utter *******

Oh. It is.
I don't feel like my entire gender group is tarnished by the concept/existence of toxic femininity, and a lot of (most?) guys don't feel like all dudes are tarnished by the concept of toxic masculinity.
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:48 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Noting that some people take certain pervasive social norms (e.g. "Men should take the initiative in dating," "Women should be nurturing and protective.") way too far is just a plain statement of fact. It isn't an attempt to smear men or women in general.
You would have a point if there weren't plenty of women who say "Men should take the initiative in dating" and plenty of men who say "Women should be nurturing and protective."

In fact if you stretched the second to "Women should be nurturing and protective and be the main full time child minder", which a lot of people strangely think and the person saying it was a bloke, some people would say it's "toxic masculinity".
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:00 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Toxic femininity ≠ Being toxic while female

Tonya Harding did some toxic things but she didn't do those things because they were an expression of hyperfemininity. We are generally socialized to believe physical aggression is a masculine rather than feminine trait.

The same goes for many of the examples given upthread. They cannot be reasonably thought to be related to any popular conception of femininity. Southern belles are perhaps the obvious exception here, since "mean girls" using social influence to immiserate other girls seems to be sort of an example of extreme femininity (assuming I'm groking pop culture correctly).
Ok what do we mean then by "toxic"? Bad?
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:01 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You would have a point if there weren't plenty of women who say "Men should take the initiative in dating"
Said women are encouraging men to behave in a manner we can reasonably describe as masculine, but which those women would presumably consider non-toxic.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
...and plenty of men who say "Women should be nurturing and protective."
Said men are encouraging women to behave in a manner we can reasonably describe as feminine, but which those men would presumably consider non-toxic.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:03 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok what do we mean then by "toxic"? Bad?
Harmful to oneself or other people.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:04 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You would have a point if there weren't plenty of women who say "Men should take the initiative in dating" and plenty of men who say "Women should be nurturing and protective."
Yes and they might be promoting toxic femininity and masculinity but how does that prove that these are not useful concepts?
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:05 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You would have a point if there weren't plenty of women who say "Men should take the initiative in dating" and plenty of men who say "Women should be nurturing and protective."
The point is the same regardless. It's probably the same people who have toxic, rigid ideas about their own gender who hold opposite rigid ideas about the other gender, too.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:06 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Harmful to oneself or other people.
That's a "yes", then.

So why use a loaded buzzword instead of saying "bad" or "negative"?
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:08 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a "yes", then.

So why use a loaded buzzword instead of saying "bad" or "negative"?
How would saying Bad/negative masculinity be less loaded?
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:15 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes and they might be promoting toxic femininity and masculinity but how does that prove that these are not useful concepts?
I would say that is promoting their idea of how they think things should work. In your words the "toxic" idea.

And apparently there are lot's of "toxic" ideas shared by various groups of people that all cross over each other

How is one group "toxic" because a few think something, yet another group not "toxic" because a few think exactly the same thing?
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:18 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So why use a loaded buzzword instead of saying "bad" or "negative"?
No idea why it was coined, but I happen to like the metaphorical parallel.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:19 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post

How is one group "toxic" because a few think something, yet another group not "toxic" because a few think exactly the same thing?

What two groups are you talking about here?

You've lost me.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:19 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
No idea why it was coined, but I happen to like the metaphorical parallel.
Ah, I see. I can understand the appeal, yes.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:21 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What two groups are you talking about here?

You've lost me.
Males and females.

Don't blame me for you chucking genders on the end.
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