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Old 24th January 2019, 12:25 PM   #121
kellyb
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Males and females.

Don't blame me for you chucking genders on the end.
Who is arguing that who is not toxic, and where?

I'm still not following you...
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:26 PM   #122
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“Hyper” might have been a better alternative, though that would roll in being extra-whatever-it-is whether it’s harmful or not.

But people in any group tend to dislike others pointing out the extremists of their group. Christians in general don’t like hearing people put down Christian fundamentalists and sometimes feel attacked by that, even though they generally agree with many of the problems people have with fundies. That kind of thing.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:26 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Who is arguing that who is not toxic, and where?

I'm still not following you...
I think he believes that "toxic masculinity" can only refer to males. I don't he he understands the term refers to the concept, not the person espousing it.

But I may be wrong, I'm guessing, not trying to strawman anything.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:51 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I think he believes that "toxic masculinity" can only refer to males. I don't he he understands the term refers to the concept, not the person espousing it.

But I may be wrong, I'm guessing, not trying to strawman anything.
I don't think it's an unreasonable inference for what the concept means since I've never seen toxic masculinity addressed to women, girls, mothers, etc. ie they aren't told not to propagate these roles, only men are.
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Old 24th January 2019, 12:54 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Who is arguing that who is not toxic, and where?

I'm still not following you...
I was saying the ideas are toxic, not the gender associated with them

It doesn't matter who is promoting them
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Old 24th January 2019, 01:03 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I don't think it's an unreasonable inference for what the concept means since I've never seen toxic masculinity addressed to women, girls, mothers, etc. ie they aren't told not to propagate these roles, only men are.
Which is itself darkly ironic, given the role women have traditionally played upholding masculinity.
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Old 24th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I would say that is promoting their idea of how they think things should work. In your words the "toxic" idea.

And apparently there are lot's of "toxic" ideas shared by various groups of people that all cross over each other

How is one group "toxic" because a few think something, yet another group not "toxic" because a few think exactly the same thing?
Fine you are right when people advocate slapping women around that is just a different idea of sex relationships and nothing that people should feel comfortable decrying. I mean a true bastion of masculinity like Sean Connery can't possibly be wrong or toxic on this!
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Old 24th January 2019, 01:35 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Males and females.

Don't blame me for you chucking genders on the end.
Because you obviously don't grasp the concept; Feminine does not mean female(gender) it means feminine(trait) and similarly masculine does not mean male(gender) it means masculine(trait).

There is a reason they are separate words.

To be masculine is to have or display traits normally associated with men, it does not require being male to be masculine just as it doesn't require being female to be feminine.

So when discussing toxic masculinity/femininity we are saying nothing about any gender being toxic only the traits themselves being expressed/forced to a toxic degree.

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Old 24th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #129
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Relevant:
https://twitter.com/mythsforkids/sta...29925144002565


Gonna hafta disagree wif Scott R. here.

Gender solidarity goes both ways and may well be healthy much of the time.
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Old 24th January 2019, 02:54 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can you give me a source for your numbers?

Status and desirability involves a lot more than physical appearance. Things like intelligence and sense of humor matter a lot, probably much more than the "drop dead gorgeous" vs "average" aspect.
Sense of humor is not something easily separated from appearance/social status. People are more likely to laugh at their boss's jokes. Norm Macdonald said they'd' get handsome male celebrities on SNL who would think they're funny, and insist on using their own poorly written jokes.

Quote:
The claim that most pair-bonded women in the western world are "settling" for their mate seems kinda preposterous to me. I also don't know and have never known a single woman who wanted to be (or would be willing to be) one of several girlfriends or wives.
There are powerful mechanisms for self-deception. Women could settle, but then later believe they found a diamond in the rough. "He was not my first choice, but I wouldn't have it any other way." Women initiate most divorces (in spite of the fact their own sexual market value has likely declined relative to their spouse).
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Old 24th January 2019, 03:20 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Sense of humor is not something easily separated from appearance/social status. People are more likely to laugh at their boss's jokes. Norm Macdonald said they'd' get handsome male celebrities on SNL who would think they're funny, and insist on using their own poorly written jokes.



There are powerful mechanisms for self-deception. Women could settle, but then later believe they found a diamond in the rough. "He was not my first choice, but I wouldn't have it any other way." Women initiate most divorces (in spite of the fact their own sexual market value has likely declined relative to their spouse).
I dunno.

People laugh at their boss' jokes to suck up to them.

I'd be extremely surprised if Patton Oswalt had trouble getting women to date him before becoming famous, and he kinda looks like a garden gnome. He's just THAT funny, intelligent, moral, etc to where he's going to be attractive to women.

And I still think if most women could be classified as "settling", most men would be, too. But I don't think that's the way intense pair-bonding works usually. People generally go through an intense obsessive bonding phase when newly in love.
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Old 24th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Could you clarify what you mean by that?
Sure. What I mean is humans like to categorize things. We like to put things in boxes. So we say there are "males", and they act/look/do this. And there are "females", who act/think/do this. The "this" is culturally determined and in some cultures, there are more than two boxes, but there are still boxes.

However, humans don't come in prepackaged box form. We exist upon spectrums. If one end of the spectrum is "heavily masculine" and the other end was "heavily effeminate", most men would fall toward the middle, but not everyone. In other words, we want to group people into categories of YES and NO but we are in reality shades.

Our culture has for centuries enforced (in many cases legally in addition to socially) gender roles that are predicated on the YES and NO. Just because that is a fact doesn't mean the underlying assumption upon which it is based is itself a fact.
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Old 24th January 2019, 04:31 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which is itself darkly ironic, given the role women have traditionally played upholding masculinity.
Don't forget we are products of our cultures and upbringing. Plenty of women are misogynistic because they were raised in a culture that was at its base misogynistic. I mean, Queen Elizabeth I was as anti-feminist as they come!

If I live in a culture that holds a certain view of male roles, chances are I am going to hold that same view, toxic or not. Obviously other factors apply, but the basic trend stands.
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Old 24th January 2019, 04:47 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I dunno.

People laugh at their boss' jokes to suck up to them.

I'd be extremely surprised if Patton Oswalt had trouble getting women to date him before becoming famous, and he kinda looks like a garden gnome. He's just THAT funny, intelligent, moral, etc to where he's going to be attractive to women.
Performers can pull wool out of their league by simply being on stage and entertaining a crowd. Musicians, cops and comedians do not need to be famous to attract groupies, badge-bunnies and chuckle-sluts. Young females develop crushes on teachers and professors every day.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:02 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Performers can pull wool out of their league by simply being on stage and entertaining a crowd. Musicians, cops and comedians do not need to be famous to attract groupies, badge-bunnies and chuckle-sluts. Young females develop crushes on teachers and professors every day.
What I meant was, even if he'd never performed on stage, a lot of girls would have liked him. Being by far the smartest, funniest person in the room creates a sort of instant "status".
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:08 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What I meant was, even if he'd never performed on stage, a lot of girls would have liked him. Being by far the smartest, funniest person in the room creates a sort of instant "status".
Comedians disagree.
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Old 24th January 2019, 05:27 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Comedians disagree.
All the guys I've ever known who were a mix of really funny, really smart, and reasonably warm, outgoing, and "moral" never had trouble finding a girlfriend, regardless of how they looked.

And I've known some guys who were supermodel gorgeous who had major trouble getting a girlfriend, because their personality was off in some way.

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Old 24th January 2019, 06:39 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
All the guys I've ever known who were a mix of really funny, really smart, and reasonably warm, outgoing, and "moral" never had trouble finding a girlfriend, regardless of how they looked.

And I've known some guys who were supermodel gorgeous who had major trouble getting a girlfriend, because their personality was off in some way.

I met my husband here on the ISF. Was deeply head over heels before I even saw him for the first time. Internet relationships wouldn't exist if looks were even half the draw. I agree with kellyb on this. Funny and smart

eta my ex husband is relatively handsome. it.only takes one conversation for most people to realize he is vacuous and nasty. cant look good enough to be worth that.
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Old 24th January 2019, 06:41 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
All the guys I've ever known who were a mix of really funny, really smart, and reasonably warm, outgoing, and "moral" never had trouble finding a girlfriend, regardless of how they looked.

And I've known some guys who were supermodel gorgeous who had major trouble getting a girlfriend, because their personality was off in some way.

I don't understand how Nixon won. Nobody I know voted for him.

- kellyb, probably
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Old 24th January 2019, 06:57 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand how Nixon won. Nobody I know voted for him.

- kellyb, probably
I'm not so sure. I'm the one living in a bubble as I have probably never known a single man (or woman) who was "supermodel gorgeous." Not only has she known multiple such men, but some of them had trouble finding girlfriends. Sounds totally plausible.
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Old 24th January 2019, 07:23 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I'm not so sure. I'm the one living in a bubble as I have probably never known a single man (or woman) who was "supermodel gorgeous." Not only has she known multiple such men, but some of them had trouble finding girlfriends. Sounds totally plausible.
I'm sure you have known people who were as attractive as professional models.
I don't think the people who become professional models are actually more attractive than the most attractive people in a place like school, though.
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Old 24th January 2019, 07:23 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand how Nixon won. Nobody I know voted for him.

- kellyb, probably
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Old 24th January 2019, 07:24 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm sure you have known people who were as attractive as professional models.
I don't think the people who become professional models are actually more attractive than the most attractive people in a place like school, though.
Models also have professional hair and makeup, good lighting, and photoshop. I have dozens of instagram friends who could be models based on their feeds but who look like crap in real life without the makeup and filters
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Old 24th January 2019, 08:26 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can you give me a source for your numbers?
Not precisely. At first it was a blog entry at OKCupid∙Com, but that site was founded by statisticians who've posted a bunch of times with stats on data they collected from their own site, so it's hard to find a particular blog entry if you don't recall its title. I presume it's still in there, just a matter of finding the right one. I've heard it again from a couple more sources since then (one of which was another dating site), but didn't take note of who those were because it was nothing new to me. It would have been like remembering the sources from which I learned that rhinoceroses have horns on their noses.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I also don't know and have never known a single woman who wanted to be (or would be willing to be) one of several girlfriends or wives.
They might not say so, but the preference for men who are already taken has been determined in experiments that got around conscious declarations about it. It's pretty simple. Make a bunch of hypothetical dating-site profiles of men, in pairs where one says he's single and one says he's married but the rest is precisely the same, show only one version in each pair to a bunch of women so no individual woman sees & compares both versions, and watch the married profiles reliably collect higher ratings than their otherwise identical single counterparts.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The claim that most pair-bonded women in the western world are "settling" for their mate seems kinda preposterous to me.
I can't picture how anybody would think otherwise just based on daily experience with real people. I'm surrounded by the signs of it every day. Sometimes it's in the form of women literally flat-out saying their own boyfriends or husbands don't look good (along with the negativity & complaints & put-downs about them in other ways too; I have only known one woman recently who's generally positive about hers). Then there are the countless times they preach to other people about the importance of settling for an unattractive man because that's practically all there is, which has built-in the indirect assertion that they follow their own advice. Then there's the constant advice for their single male friends to be happy with eventually being settled for by women who've finally given up on ever getting what they actually want. Then there's the way our whole dating scheme is built around the idea of men wanting women but women mostly not wanting men. Then there's the way perfectly ordinary non-bodybuilder male bodies are treated as objects of ridicule for their hilarious unsexiness, while women's are praised just for existing and being female nearly regardless of what condition they're in. Then there's the way a lot of women carry on about how much they want certain men and the fact that it's always the same very few men (this one tends to get denied a lot, but as soon as I'm done hearing/reading the denial, I'm treated to another conversation where my co-workers, regardless of their marital or dating status, gush about how "yummy" one guy or another they've seen at work is and how much they wish they could get him themselves as a result, or I'm treated to another meme of Aquaman or someone else like that with a caption that not only describes some overtly sexual fantasy about the guy in the picture but also might throw in a "why am I with my boyfriend when he doesn't look like this"). And do you agree with the popular consensus that women are more likely than men to be bisexual or homosexual? If it's true, it's exactly what would be expected in a naturally harem-forming species, since it's female behavior that makes a harem-forming species work that way, and that is, after all, the standard, usual type of social structure that would normally be expected for a random mammal/ape species by default in the absence of evidence otherwise. And the amounts of genetic variation in Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA clearly show that the population is descended from a significantly smaller number of male ancestors than female ancestors since prehistoric times.

The real question here is: what aspect of the real world would point an observer in any other direction?

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Old 24th January 2019, 09:11 PM   #145
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I don't think dating site experiments will give you accurate info about anything besides what happens within a dating site, where photogenic physical attractiveness is almost all anyone has to work with.

Re: women who trash talk their husbands and boyfriends, I've never seen that outside of people who were on the cusp of breaking up. All the women I know speak really highly of their husbands/boyfriends.

eta:
Quote:
They might not say so, but the preference for men who are already taken has been determined in experiments that got around conscious declarations about it. It's pretty simple. Make a bunch of hypothetical dating-site profiles of men, in pairs where one says he's single and one says he's married but the rest is precisely the same, show only one version in each pair to a bunch of women so no individual woman sees & compares both versions, and watch the married profiles reliably collect higher ratings than their otherwise identical single counterparts.
I'd really need to see a source for this. Something sounds really off about it. Was it a hypothetical dating site for people looking to have affairs or something?
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:13 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I don't think it's an unreasonable inference for what the concept means since I've never seen toxic masculinity addressed to women, girls, mothers, etc. ie they aren't told not to propagate these roles, only men are.
This is utter BS.
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:15 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
This is utter BS.
Can you provide an example?
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:15 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand how Nixon won. Nobody I know voted for him.

- kellyb, probably
What are you trying to say here?
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:16 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Can you provide an example?
You've never heard of a mother who told her son "boys don't cry"? And no one has ever called that out?

Seriously, have any of you guys actually had a conversation with a feminist? Ever?
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:25 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You've never heard of a mother who told her son "boys don't cry"?
Not that I can recall. Seen it in movies, though, so I assume it's a meme.
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Old 24th January 2019, 09:56 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not that I can recall. Seen it in movies, though, so I assume it's a meme.
Yeah, OK.
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:03 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm sure you have known people who were as attractive as professional models.

I don't think the people who become professional models are actually more attractive than the most attractive people in a place like school, though.
I have known someone who became a bonafide professional model. As far as I know, he's not a supermodel. I agree that the people who become models are not necessarily the most physically attractive in a given environment, whether it be high school or a university. Then again, on the female side, I personally find regular models more attractive than most supermodels.

Anyway, the thing about looks is that they matter. They matter more to men than women, but women lie -- to themselves and others -- about how much they matter.
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:07 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd really need to see a source for this. Something sounds really off about it. Was it a hypothetical dating site for people looking to have affairs or something?
You've seen all these supermodels in your life, but you've never seen women pining for forbidden fruit? You've never heard one sigh, "All the good ones are taken?" Oscar Wilde once said something to the effect that "men want to be woman's first love, and women want to be his last romance."
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:15 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
You've seen all these supermodels in your life, but you've never seen women pining for forbidden fruit? You've never heard one sigh, "All the good ones are taken?" Oscar Wilde once said something to the effect that "men want to be woman's first love, and women want to be his last romance."
Honest to god, I've only seen that in movies.

Maybe it's a southern thing, but it's considered really...pathetic and kind of "trashy" to be into someone with a wife or girlfriend around here.

Being some sort of "side girl" is a really shameful thing. Aspiring to be one is flat-out unheard of.
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Old 24th January 2019, 10:50 PM   #155
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Maybe pining was the incorrect word. Women do not want to be "the other woman," but they find men in a relationship more attractive. Same goes for men who have secured the affections of attractive women (e.g., Costanza impressing ladies with a head-shot of man-hands).
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Old 24th January 2019, 11:33 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You've never heard of a mother who told her son "boys don't cry"? And no one has ever called that out?

Seriously, have any of you guys actually had a conversation with a feminist? Ever?
I've never seen it called out, either.

I've certainly seen feminists (when pushed) admit that "women perpetuate toxic femininity as well" (through patriarchy - can't go a single concession without mentioning it as the ultimate driving force) but they really DO require a push. Can you cite a single mainstream example of a feminist activist/campaign that focused equally on telling both men and women to stop perpetuating toxic masculinity?

Oh geez, imagine one that focused solely on women, like the gilette ad focused solely on men (and any example that I can ever recall seeing)

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Old 25th January 2019, 09:00 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Oh geez, imagine one that focused solely on women, like the gilette ad focused solely on men (and any example that I can ever recall seeing)
Men—unlike women—should be strong enough to take public criticism without crying about it.














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Old 25th January 2019, 09:36 AM   #158
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The OkCupid site date is based on several premises that don't hold for the general public. For example, people who are willing to use a dating site (small portion of the population), who think they will be chosen by looks alone, and who choose based mostly on looks. There are more but those are the most prominent. I for one would never use a dating app, and would be unlikely to be chosen based on looks alone, and would never choose based on looks only. So regardless whatever data results you can find from that site, or a similar site, they can't fairly be extrapolated to the general population.
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Old 25th January 2019, 09:37 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Men—unlike women—should be strong enough to take public criticism without crying about

Honey I'm wearing $15 mascara I ain't crying anywhere!
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Old 25th January 2019, 09:40 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I've never seen it called out, either.

I've certainly seen feminists (when pushed) admit that "women perpetuate toxic femininity as well" (through patriarchy - can't go a single concession without mentioning it as the ultimate driving force) but they really DO require a push. Can you cite a single mainstream example of a feminist activist/campaign that focused equally on telling both men and women to stop perpetuating toxic masculinity?

Oh geez, imagine one that focused solely on women, like the gilette ad focused solely on men (and any example that I can ever recall seeing)
Who are these feminists? Where do you encounter these people?

I am a feminist in that I believe women deserve and need to fight for equal rights and protection under the law. Yes, some women help perpetuate the problems. Duh. It hardly needs stated that when we speak of "societal" problems we mean *all* of society! This idea that women sit around complaining how they are innocent victims of big, mean men is not something I've ever seen or heard outside of the far depths of tumblr.
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