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Old 25th January 2019, 12:16 PM   #161
Elvis666
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
This idea that women sit around complaining how they are innocent victims of big, mean men is not something I've ever seen or heard outside of the far depths of tumblr.
This is an honest question from a 66-year old white male. Is this not what is taught in many university-level women's studies curricula? My college days were behind me before such courses caught on in any significant number, but my impression from media coverage of statements directly from members of these types of departments has led me to believe so.

I understand that it is not a commonly-held belief and also that women's rights advocates certainly have plenty of reason to protest the way women in general are treated, but I truly believed that there was a small group of them who made statements functionally equivalent to the one I quoted above.
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Old 25th January 2019, 12:39 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I met my husband here on the ISF. Was deeply head over heels before I even saw him for the first time. Internet relationships wouldn't exist if looks were even half the draw. I agree with kellyb on this. Funny and smart ...
Careful. Have you seen what he's been saying over on the "Of time travel and Hitler" thread? It's ALL about Rincewind!!
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Old 25th January 2019, 02:43 PM   #163
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For those that don't think toxic femininity exists, I present this in spades. It's out there, it's real and they're usually too busy blaming men because that's the modern day feminist narrative.

'It was hell': Woman's co-worker accused of repeatedly tainting her water bottle with Lysol

edited to add: Women get bullied and harassed by other women in the workplace all the time... but the media and society in general sweeps it under the rug and only want to discuss when a man does it to a women because that IS the feminist narrative. Men, particularly white men, don't have a victim card that can be played so it's open season.

Last edited by Wirelight; 25th January 2019 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:02 PM   #164
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I'm not really sure what trying to murder someone via poisoning has to do with either feminism or toxic femininity, other than Lysol being toxic, but okay.
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:17 PM   #165
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Because if a man was doing the poisoning it would easily be labelled toxic masculinity. You know, the fact that men are abusive, rape and kill?

Thanks for proving my point, Kelly.
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Old 25th January 2019, 03:54 PM   #166
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I don't think it's fair to label behavior x as an example of either "masculine" or "feminine" in today's world. It is, however, fair to label that behavior as "toxic," if it's harmful. Thus, I'm on the "toxic people" bandwagon and I don't find assigning "toxicity" to "masculinity" or "femininity" to be very useful.

Focus on the behavior of people, not whatever gender you want to assign to people.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:04 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm not really sure what trying to murder someone via poisoning has to do with either feminism or toxic femininity, other than Lysol being toxic, but okay.
I mean, it was literally toxic.

Also, poison is a great weapon for people who can't rely on a statistical advantage in upper body strength.

Second only to handguns, probably.

Last edited by theprestige; 25th January 2019 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:21 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Focus on the behavior of people, not whatever gender you want to assign to people.
There's nothing wrong with describing the type of behavior. Men can act feminine; women can act masculine. We understand what is meant in Game of Thrones when a character says "poison is a woman's weapon." If a man were to poison another man, I'm not at all sure it would instantly be labeled "toxic masculinity." Toxic masculinity is understood as public, aggressive, confrontational. A toxic femininity would be more private, indirect, duplicitous.

With a handgun or broadsword, a person literally pulls the trigger or swings the handle. For poison, a victim may administer it to her/himself.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Anyway, the thing about looks is that they matter. They matter more to men than women, but women lie -- to themselves and others -- about how much they matter.
No, pretty sure I really do not care. Looks change. Old people all kinda look similar. But who you are as a person can be sexy as hell. Look at Anthony Hopkins. Sexy as ******* hell, even tho as he has aged his head looks more and more like an orange.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:30 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Honest to god, I've only seen that in movies.

Maybe it's a southern thing, but it's considered really...pathetic and kind of "trashy" to be into someone with a wife or girlfriend around here.

Being some sort of "side girl" is a really shameful thing. Aspiring to be one is flat-out unheard of.
Here too. Really the lowest of the low.

Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
This is an honest question from a 66-year old white male. Is this not what is taught in many university-level women's studies curricula? My college days were behind me before such courses caught on in any significant number, but my impression from media coverage of statements directly from members of these types of departments has led me to believe so.

I understand that it is not a commonly-held belief and also that women's rights advocates certainly have plenty of reason to protest the way women in general are treated, but I truly believed that there was a small group of them who made statements functionally equivalent to the one I quoted above.
not to my knowledge

Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
Because if a man was doing the poisoning it would easily be labelled toxic masculinity. You know, the fact that men are abusive, rape and kill?

Thanks for proving my point, Kelly.
No, she did not prove your point. Not at all. Just saying it has been proven does not actually prove anything.
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Old 25th January 2019, 04:33 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Careful. Have you seen what he's been saying over on the "Of time travel and Hitler" thread? It's ALL about Rincewind!!
I wouldnt go back and kill Hitler either, because rincewind wouldn't exist, and neither would I, since my ancestors came here because of the war.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:51 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
No, pretty sure I really do not care. Looks change. Old people all kinda look similar. But who you are as a person can be sexy as hell. Look at Anthony Hopkins. Sexy as ******* hell, even tho as he has aged his head looks more and more like an orange.
Says who you are as a person can be sexy as hell. Cites an actor.
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Old 25th January 2019, 05:54 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I wouldnt go back and kill Hitler either, because rincewind wouldn't exist, and neither would I, since my ancestors came here because of the war.
I wouldn't go back and kill Hitler, because he's already dead and nobody's even heard of him anyway.
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Old 25th January 2019, 06:24 PM   #174
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Does anyone really not understand the difference between finding someone beautiful and finding someone attractive? They are distinct qualities, and are quite frequently found separately.
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Old 25th January 2019, 06:36 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Does anyone really not understand the difference between finding someone beautiful and finding someone attractive? They are distinct qualities, and are quite frequently found separately.
That seems far too subjective to reasonably expect anyone else to understand the difference you mean.
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Old 25th January 2019, 07:13 PM   #176
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Hmm...

There was a women's group, active in Australia, called: "Women who want to be women."

My female friends and colleagues used to call them: "Women who want to be doormats."

I don't think they're active anymore, but I would have described them as "toxic femininity".

When their members were interviewed on TV they would make statements like:

"Men should control all money including the household budget."
"Women should be in the home, raising children."
"Rape isn't possible within the marriage."

I found them to be highly unattractive, because of their attitudes and the amount of makeup, coiffure etc. they displayed. (Much less attractive than drag-queens for example)

Probably just my biases because I've always valued intelligent, successful women, who wear no makeup, or apply it so skilfully that I can't tell that they're wearing any.

and PS...

I like women who ride bicycles, because bicycles, but skinny is massively unattractive to me. As my ex said to me when I lost too much weight once: "Who the **** wants to share a bed with a toolbox?"
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Old 25th January 2019, 07:27 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Hmm...

There was a women's group, active in Australia, called: "Women who want to be women."

My female friends and colleagues used to call them: "Women who want to be doormats."

I don't think they're active anymore, but I would have described them as "toxic femininity".

When their members were interviewed on TV they would make statements like:

"Men should control all money including the household budget."
"Women should be in the home, raising children."
"Rape isn't possible within the marriage."

I found them to be highly unattractive, because of their attitudes and the amount of makeup, coiffure etc. they displayed. (Much less attractive than drag-queens for example)

Probably just my biases because I've always valued intelligent, successful women, who wear no makeup, or apply it so skilfully that I can't tell that they're wearing any.

and PS...

I like women who ride bicycles, because bicycles, but skinny is massively unattractive to me. As my ex said to me when I lost too much weight once: "Who the **** wants to share a bed with a toolbox?"
Apparently, from earlier posts, that would be women displaying toxic masculinity
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Old 25th January 2019, 07:40 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems far too subjective to reasonably expect anyone else to understand the difference you mean.
Wait, really?

While they might be used interchangeably often, something being beautiful means it has qualities that the person enjoys in an aesthetic sense. Finding something attractive means it has qualities that attracts you to it, in the context under discussion that would be sexually.

I might call a sunset 'beautiful', but I wouldn't rightly say that I'm 'attracted' to it.

Again, in many contexts the difference is non-existent because people will use them creatively or whatnot, but I kind of thought the difference was well known.

Does no one study Greek or Latin anymore?
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Old 25th January 2019, 07:51 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apparently, from earlier posts, that would be women displaying toxic masculinity
Because they're behaving in ways that they believe will be more attractive to men?

erm... OK.

I think I'll just have to add that to the massively long list of "things about people that I will probably never understand."

Along with men almost entirely preferring women to wear minimal or no make-up, and women wearing it to protect themselves from unpleasant comments from other women. (This has been explained to me, by women, many times, and I still think it sucks.)
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Old 25th January 2019, 07:55 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
No, pretty sure I really do not care. Looks change. Old people all kinda look similar. But who you are as a person can be sexy as hell. Look at Anthony Hopkins. Sexy as ******* hell, even tho as he has aged his head looks more and more like an orange.
The thing about actors and models is you don't know who they are as people so that can't be what you find attractive about them. The images in the media rely 100% on the physical attraction of the model, nothing else.

As TragicMonkey stated, there is a huge difference between beautiful people and attractive people. You may be very attracted to Hopkins but he is not beautiful. You may not have been attracted to Brad Pitt in his younger years but he was beautiful by our standards.

You can teach people how to act, and how to pose, but you can't teach them how to be beautiful.
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Old 25th January 2019, 09:11 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Because they're behaving in ways that they believe will be more attractive to men?

erm... OK.

I think I'll just have to add that to the massively long list of "things about people that I will probably never understand."

Along with men almost entirely preferring women to wear minimal or no make-up, and women wearing it to protect themselves from unpleasant comments from other women. (This has been explained to me, by women, many times, and I still think it sucks.)
It is an interesting concept

Even when it is just a women being a **** it's masculinity's fault
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Old 25th January 2019, 09:52 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Does anyone really not understand the difference between finding someone beautiful and finding someone attractive? They are distinct qualities, and are quite frequently found separately.
This new and improved "Downer" Cain is quite attractive.
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Old 25th January 2019, 10:59 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems far too subjective to reasonably expect anyone else to understand the difference you mean.
I'm not sure what subjectivity has to do with expecting people to understand the difference. We are all human and as such our shared experience includes shared subjective experiences.

One such experience is finding people beautiful without being attracted to them. Another is being attracted to people that we don't find beautiful.

If you haven't had those experiences then I can understand not being able to understand the difference TM is talking about.

Personally there is one woman I know who is not particularly beautiful (I've described her to friends as "you probably wouldn't even notice her") but who I find painfully attractive.
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Old 25th January 2019, 11:40 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Personally there is one woman I know who is not particularly beautiful (I've described her to friends as "you probably wouldn't even notice her") but who I find painfully attractive.
I have to say that I've experience both examples of that.

1. Stunningly beautiful people that I'm not attracted to at all.

2. Ordinary people that I'm totally attracted to.

(And everything else in between most likely.)

The more I think about it, 2. is the tricky one, because attraction seems to overwhelm everything else. i.e. The more I'm attracted to a person, the harder it is to be critical about the exterior.
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Old 26th January 2019, 01:16 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Says who you are as a person can be sexy as hell. Cites an actor.
An actor I personally have spoken to and gotten to know, actually, but even if I hadnt, it is fairly easy to get a feel for a celebrity's personality if you read their interviews etc. So what is your point?
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Old 26th January 2019, 01:53 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems far too subjective to reasonably expect anyone else to understand the difference you mean.
Seems perfectly cromulent. I would add "striking" to that list. They might not be beautiful or attractive and yet have "something" that makes them stand out.
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:26 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
An actor I personally have spoken to and gotten to know, actually, but even if I hadnt, it is fairly easy to get a feel for a celebrity's personality if you read their interviews etc. So what is your point?
You strike me as deluded. Confronted with the idea of divergence between what women say they desire and what they actually desire, you insist that you're the exception. Based on celebrity interviews, you insist you have a pretty good idea of what someone's like in person. After all, that's what happened with Anthony Hopkins Tony. It's almost as if confirmation bias isn't a thing. The people who break up with and divorce these celebrities would like some words.

Here's a classic article on female desire: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/m...5desire-t.html

"[W]ith the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person."
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:15 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
You strike me as deluded. Confronted with the idea of divergence between what women say they desire and what they actually desire, you insist that you're the exception. Based on celebrity interviews, you insist you have a pretty good idea of what someone's like in person. After all, that's what happened with Anthony Hopkins Tony. It's almost as if confirmation bias isn't a thing. The people who break up with and divorce these celebrities would like some words.

Here's a classic article on female desire: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/m...5desire-t.html

"[W]ith the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person."

Have you been talking to Shemp's ex-career manager?*



*You remember when Shemp got all "edgy" a few years ago?
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:30 PM   #189
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You really, really can't extrapolate arousal levels from watching porn to knowing who a woman will choose to date, much less enter a serious relationship with.

Maybe if you're only looking at the subset of women in the market for one night stands, or something like that, but that's it.
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:56 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You really, really can't extrapolate arousal levels from watching porn to knowing who a woman will choose to date, much less enter a serious relationship with.
That's exactly what I said that you objected to earlier.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:02 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That's exactly what I said that you objected to earlier.
Where? Can you quote what you said and my response?

I'm pretty sure we were not discussing attempts to extrapolate arousal levels from watching porn to knowing who a woman will choose to date...
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:05 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
You strike me as deluded. Confronted with the idea of divergence between what women say they desire and what they actually desire, you insist that you're the exception. Based on celebrity interviews, you insist you have a pretty good idea of what someone's like in person. After all, that's what happened with Anthony Hopkins Tony. It's almost as if confirmation bias isn't a thing. The people who break up with and divorce these celebrities would like some words.

Here's a classic article on female desire: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/m...5desire-t.html

"[W]ith the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person."
Have you considered the admittedly outrageous proposition you just might be wrong? Also, I call him Mr Hopkins he's a lot older than me.

eta I never said I am the sole exception. I said you were wrong entirely.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:23 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Have you considered the admittedly outrageous proposition you just might be wrong?
Sure.

Quote:
eta I never said I am the sole exception. I said you were wrong entirely.
Please, do not get into the semantic wanking. It oozes desperation. For every general rule, there are exceptions. The comment was to imply that you were part of the minority, yet you went ahead and inferred that you're "the one." Please.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:27 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
For every general rule, there are exceptions.
erm... That's dangerously close to the "exception proves the rule" nonsense.

The exception demonstrates that the rule is incorrect.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:28 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You really, really can't extrapolate arousal levels from watching porn to knowing who a woman will choose to date, much less enter a serious relationship with.
This is another foolish comment. It has little to do with predicting who women will choose for a serious relationship. It's merely showing that women have significant blind spots. I know a guy who is a rich, and he's heard women recite the whole shebang about they don't care about what kind of car a man drives, where he lives and so on. Then they get to his house -- which is pretty bitchin' -- and they can't help but smile, "You live here??"
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:31 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
erm... That's dangerously close to the "exception proves the rule" nonsense.

The exception demonstrates that the rule is incorrect.
Holy hell, it's just one dumb post after another. No, it's similar to the third person effect.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:34 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
erm... That's dangerously close to the "exception proves the rule" nonsense.



The exception demonstrates that the rule is incorrect.
Depends what you think that expression means.

You can't make exceptions without first having a general rule. If you're talking about exceptions, that pretty much proves the existence of the rule.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:44 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Where? Can you quote what you said and my response?
* * *
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Attractiveness in women is distributed on a low, wide, semi-flattened version of the bell curve. For men, it skews hard to the left...

most couples in a predominantly 1:1 system necessarily involve a woman settling for a man she never actually wanted
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The claim that most pair-bonded women in the western world are "settling" for their mate seems kinda preposterous to me.
Before you respond to that, something to consider in composing your response: I've met actual women in the real world. I've seen & heard their behavior. When I'm done reading your response here, I'll go back to interacting with them again soon. So your response here will be sandwiched between real-world examples you have no control over.
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:35 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
* * *Before you respond to that, something to consider in composing your response: I've met actual women in the real world. I've seen & heard their behavior. When I'm done reading your response here, I'll go back to interacting with them again soon. So your response here will be sandwiched between real-world examples you have no control over.
I am completely missing how you said the same thing I said on any level.

Most women do not think they're "settling" when they get married.
Most women's relative and comparative physical responses to porn has nothing to do with who they want to share a life with.

eta: and the women you work with honestly sound like some of the worst women on earth.
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Old 26th January 2019, 07:42 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
This is another foolish comment. It has little to do with predicting who women will choose for a serious relationship. It's merely showing that women have significant blind spots. I know a guy who is a rich, and he's heard women recite the whole shebang about they don't care about what kind of car a man drives, where he lives and so on. Then they get to his house -- which is pretty bitchin' -- and they can't help but smile, "You live here??"
Yes, there are gold digging women out there, and there are lying women, but that has nothing to do with the fact that most women are not choosing their mates based on how hot those men would look in a porn.

What pushes buttons in porn for women is a whole 'nother universe. It's not relevant to the topics at hand at all.
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