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Old 27th January 2019, 06:15 PM   #241
Chanakya

 
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Personally, I can only conjecture. I would guess that the relationship builds until the point when the genders are revealed. At that point the individuals would either choose to continue it and revisit their sexual identity, or to be friends.
Makes sense. Lovely romantic story that, btw. Cheers to both of you! :--)

Not to beat this to death, but to revisit this one last time: If personality is necessarily the primary factor that draws two people together, then, when subsequently faced with the 'wrong' gender, what has changed?

My own take would be that attraction is probably a composite of many different things: personality, and/or specific opinions, and/or gender, and/or looks, and/or a hundred and one other factors. The individual weightages would vary, depending on the individual. I don't think we can generalize here.

And in this, like in all other things, the more self-aware one is about how one's mind/body 'ticks', the better one's decision/choice is likely to be.
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Old 27th January 2019, 06:42 PM   #242
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I think that is a good summary, yeah.
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Old 27th January 2019, 06:54 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Makes sense. Lovely romantic story that, btw. Cheers to both of you! :--)

Not to beat this to death, but to revisit this one last time: If personality is necessarily the primary factor that draws two people together, then, when subsequently faced with the 'wrong' gender, what has changed?

My own take would be that attraction is probably a composite of many different things: personality, and/or specific opinions, and/or gender, and/or looks, and/or a hundred and one other factors. The individual weightages would vary, depending on the individual. I don't think we can generalize here.

And in this, like in all other things, the more self-aware one is about how one's mind/body 'ticks', the better one's decision/choice is likely to be.
I dont know. I dont fully understand how it all works tbh. One of my sons is pansexual, meaning he is attracted to people regardless of their gender (and he is trans f to m). So clearly things are wired different but how?

I am straight but I have been attracted to women. If the circumstances allowed would I attempt a relationship? I honestly cannot say. Possibly.

Seems related to your "type", I think. perhaps sexuality is just your "type", which can change over time and is variable. maybe if you met someone who suited you down to the ground, it wouldnt matter their gender.

ps thank you! we are super grateful to the isf that we were brought together!
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Old 27th January 2019, 09:13 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Oh, mon chéri, it is. We are well into the realm of The Blackpill Theory of Human Femoid Sexuality with this stuff.
Uh huh. I'd suppose you'd prefer to sooner forget this whole exchange -- where you say something naive and it gets corrected with logic and evidence -- stems from a comment about how in a polygamous society, "high status individuals of both sexes will dominate equally."

Quote:
But I've never, ever known a guy who was a 10/10 in all things personality who was unable to find love because of how he looked. And I have known a lot of "objectively" fugly dudes.
Again, I am not arguing that an ugly person is doomed to involuntary celibacy. I also do not buy into the rampant paranoia that almost every married man is getting "cucked."

Virtually anyone can get laid with alcohol, Facebook and low standards. Granted, they may not find a desirable partner...

Quote:
Because it's random, and so? What part of "Just because a woman experiences low level arousal upon viewing that, does not mean they want to actually engage in it or base sexual behavior choices upon it" is not computing for you?
I'm not suggesting women want to engage in that behavior. Holy Christ, read for comprehension.

Quote:
Know what women do base actual sexual activity choices upon? This is going to blow your mind, but it's...what we say we do. Straight women actually have sex with dudes, not bonobos and other women doing exercises.
Here's a shocking thought: What people say, and what they actually do are sometimes different things.

Quote:
I said "with any degree of accuracy", not "with perfect accuracy." A photo is a hell of a lot more accurate than someone's self-report about their own intelligence and personality.
This would be funny if you weren't so daft. If I read a profile about a person saying he's funny and smart -- it means little to nothing. This is not to say that a profile cannot demonstrate intelligence and wit. Show, don't tell. I remember reading an profile of a young woman who was hilarious. She had a fantastic personality! Granted, I didn't bother messaging her because I was intimidated by her confidence she was a land-whale.

Quote:
I've never actually known people who regularly go to bars to find people to date. Most people meet others through mutual friends and acquaintances around here.
Cool. What's your favorite color? Never mind, I don't care.
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Old 27th January 2019, 09:15 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I ask again how internet relationships could be possible if personality wasn't the primary draw. Not eHarmony dating sites, but like me and Rincewind. Millions of people like us meet online and marry. Personality is all you have to go on.
One possibility, in short: Lack of options.
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Old 27th January 2019, 10:02 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
One possibility, in short: Lack of options.

That's the kind of offensively personal cheap shot that, while taking care to stay within MA bounds, sometimes renders this otherwise fantastic place unpleasant.

Besides, it's wrong. Oh, it's technically correct, that is indeed an option, but that really says nothing, as paucity of options can apply equally to ALL relationships (or at least, to be scrupulously accurate, to almost all), including any that you (or I) have or had, online or otherwise.

Besides, you've yourself discussed the option Magrat's described. Just now, right there. That chick's funny witty online dating profile? Funny this option, that you spoke of just now -- personality -- doesn't occur to you, nor a host of others, but only a lack of options does.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:11 PM   #247
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:18 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Again, I am not arguing that an ugly person is doomed to involuntary celibacy. I also do not buy into the rampant paranoia that almost every married man is getting "cucked."

Virtually anyone can get laid with alcohol, Facebook and low standards. Granted, they may not find a desirable partner...
I'm talking about satisfying long term relationships, not "getting laid" via social media and booze. If you stepped away from the depressed braincel crowd for a while, you might rediscover a whole different world out there, where people fall and stay in love for years or decades.


Quote:
I'm not suggesting women want to engage in that behavior. Holy Christ, read for comprehension.
You're the one who posted that link to back up your point about what women really want.

Maybe you should actually read the content of the links you post? That would really help you make coherent and persuasive arguments.

Quote:
Here's a shocking thought: What people say, and what they actually do are sometimes different things.
Of course. I don't even disagree. I'm sure you could have found actual evidence to back that point, too, instead of a study evaluating women watching bonobos boink, and trying to pigeonhole that into your theory of female behavioral motivations with an out of context quote.


Quote:
This would be funny if you weren't so daft. If I read a profile about a person saying he's funny and smart -- it means little to nothing.
That was my point. I said:

Originally Posted by me
I said "with any degree of accuracy", not "with perfect accuracy." A photo is a hell of a lot more accurate than someone's self-report about their own intelligence and personality.
Pay attention.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:39 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
One possibility, in short: Lack of options.
You exist in a very strange, lonely and dark head space if you think people only fall in love with another for their personality via lack of options, however that would actually work. The whole concept doesn't even make any sense.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:45 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That's the kind of offensively personal cheap shot that, while taking care to stay within MA bounds, sometimes renders this otherwise fantastic place unpleasant.

Besides, it's wrong. Oh, it's technically correct, that is indeed an option, but that really says nothing, as paucity of options can apply equally to ALL relationships (or at least, to be scrupulously accurate, to almost all), including any that you (or I) have or had, online or otherwise.
It's mostly just really and truly sad, I think.

It's fairly common, too - there's a whole online culture of lonely and angry men who basically don't believe in love, and view everyone else's relationships through a lens of either patheticness or selfishness.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:52 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You exist in a very strange, lonely and dark head space if you think people only fall in love with another for their personality via lack of options, however that would actually work. The whole concept doesn't even make any sense.
It makes sense under one theory I've heard of. Basically when choosing a mate we are all trying to find the best partner that will also choose us. But you don't know who will choose you until you try. So, one heuristic for finding the best partner that you can is to try out different people for a while (perhaps only through flirting, not actually anything serious), see who is into you to establish a baseline, and then having established that baseline go into a second phase in which you choose the first person who reaches the same level as the top of that baseline.

Obviously "choose" here isn't a conscious decision, but rather one regulated by hormones.

This would lead to who you fall in love with being in part dependant upon the history of who your options were.

(This model is just a simplified suggestion of something that could be similar to the way human mating works that I read about probably more than 10 years ago in one of Steven Pinker's books. If I'm making a mess of it, that's one me. I'm only trying to make the point that it's possible for "the whole concept" of one's options impacting on one's mating choices to make some sense.)
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:08 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It makes sense under one theory I've heard of. Basically when choosing a mate we are all trying to find the best partner that will also choose us. But you don't know who will choose you until you try. So, one heuristic for finding the best partner that you can is to try out different people for a while (perhaps only through flirting, not actually anything serious), see who is into you to establish a baseline, and then having established that baseline go into a second phase in which you choose the first person who reaches the same level as the top of that baseline.

Obviously "choose" here isn't a conscious decision, but rather one regulated by hormones.

This would lead to who you fall in love with being in part dependant upon the history of who your options were.

(This model is just a simplified suggestion of something that could be similar to the way human mating works that I read about probably more than 10 years ago in one of Steven Pinker's books. If I'm making a mess of it, that's one me. I'm only trying to make the point that it's possible for "the whole concept" of one's options impacting on one's mating choices to make some sense.)
I think what you're describing is probably at least somewhat true, but I don't really know how that relates to Cain's argument, that people only fall in love online via "lack of options".

What you're describing is the same thing that would happen meeting people irl, or through a dating app, or via a forum like here, all equally.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:15 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think what you're describing is probably at least somewhat true, but I don't really know how that relates to Cain's argument, that people only fall in love online via "lack of options".

What you're describing is the same thing that would happen meeting people irl, or through a dating app, or via a forum like here, all equally.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to support his argument. I thought you were saying it doesn't make sense in general that people could fall in love through lack of options.

I agree that people falling in love online isn't necessarily a sign of lack of options. Nor is it even more likely to be so than in "real life".

Knowing Cain I don't think he thinks so either, I think it's another one of his jokes, though this time in rather poor taste.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:27 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sorry, I wasn't trying to support his argument. I thought you were saying it doesn't make sense in general that people could fall in love through lack of options.

I agree that people falling in love online isn't necessarily a sign of lack of options. Nor is it even more likely to be so than in "real life".

Knowing Cain I don't think he thinks so either, I think it's another one of his jokes, though this time in rather poor taste.
I'm still not seeing how that's a lack of options, though. I mean, you still technically have the option of being with someone you might kinda think in the back of your mind you're "better than". Whoever you choose is still your choice, unless it's some post-apocalypse scenario with only two people left on Earth.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:47 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm still not seeing how that's a lack of options, though. I mean, you still technically have the option of being with someone you might kinda think in the back of your mind you're "better than". Whoever you choose is still your choice, unless it's some post-apocalypse scenario with only two people left on Earth.
Oh I see. Yeah, I guess I was thinking about it as a relative lack of options. The fewer options you have the more likely you are to choose the next person who shows interest.

This is different from “settling” in the sense that Delvo talked about it though, as what I’m describing here would still be genuine strong emotion.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:59 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Whoever you choose is still your choice, unless it's some post-apocalypse scenario with only two people left on Earth.

... and even then, you might not love or even like that person. He or she might not even be your preferred sex (or gender) - or the other way round.
Even if you have no other choice, that still doesn't mean that you will love the only choice you have. This sometimes surprises jealous people: Eliminating whomever you think of as the competition doesn't mean that the object of your desire will now suddenly love you, of all people ...

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The fewer options you have the more likely you are to choose the next person who shows interest.

More likely, maybe, but it would still depend on your finding that person attractive at all.


ETA: I can see that Chanakya has already been there.
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Last edited by dann; 28th January 2019 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:05 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
... and even then, you might not love or even like that person. He or she might not even be your preferred sex (or gender) - or the other way round.
Even if you have no other choice, that still doesn't mean that you will love the only choice you have. This sometimes surprises jealous people: Eliminating whomever you think of as the competition doesn't mean that the object of your desire will now suddenly love you, of all people ...
I was actually thinking of all that as I was typing it, but decided not to go into it.

Honestly, I think I'd be lucky if I was able to be friends with the only other person on earth. The chances I'd be in love with them seems very, very slim.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:20 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
.


More likely, maybe, but it would still depend on your finding that person attractive at all.
Sure, but under the model I suggested who you find attractive would be dependant upon the options you have.

To what extent reality lines up with that model, I don't know. I was only trying to say that it makes some sense, not that it's actually how humans work. I think that people in the real world are probably much more complicated than this simple model, but I do think it also gives some insight into how we work.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:22 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Honestly, I think I'd be lucky if I was able to be friends with the only other person on earth. The chances I'd be in love with them seems very, very slim.
Maybe, but I think it's hard to predict how we'd react to situations that are that different from our current ones.
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:13 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Don't forget we are products of our cultures and upbringing. Plenty of women are misogynistic because they were raised in a culture that was at its base misogynistic. I mean, Queen Elizabeth I was as anti-feminist as they come!

If I live in a culture that holds a certain view of male roles, chances are I am going to hold that same view, toxic or not. Obviously other factors apply, but the basic trend stands.
Political activist Phyllis Schlafly felt that women should be quiet and in the home and not engaging in politics like she was.
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:31 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
One possibility, in short: Lack of options.
hahahahahah ok champ
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:35 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's mostly just really and truly sad, I think.

It's fairly common, too - there's a whole online culture of lonely and angry men who basically don't believe in love, and view everyone else's relationships through a lens of either patheticness or selfishness.
Probably because of a lack of options.
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:57 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It makes sense under one theory I've heard of. Basically when choosing a mate we are all trying to find the best partner that will also choose us. But you don't know who will choose you until you try. So, one heuristic for finding the best partner that you can is to try out different people for a while (perhaps only through flirting, not actually anything serious), see who is into you to establish a baseline, and then having established that baseline go into a second phase in which you choose the first person who reaches the same level as the top of that baseline.
Makes sense, sure. I think I probably unconsciously was thinking of something like that in high school when I figured that really, really hot guys weren’t what I wanted as partners because they tended not to be done sampling the buffet yet. I could get them but so could most of the other cute girls.

That probably ties in to toxic something, I mean it’s blatantly stereotypical but still feels like it was just a sensible thing to think. “Young hot guys will go for anything” undoubtedly sounds a lot truer than it is, and where it’s not true it’s cruelly insulting.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:29 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That's the kind of offensively personal cheap shot that, while taking care to stay within MA bounds, sometimes renders this otherwise fantastic place unpleasant.

Besides, it's wrong. Oh, it's technically correct, that is indeed an option, but that really says nothing, as paucity of options can apply equally to ALL relationships (or at least, to be scrupulously accurate, to almost all), including any that you (or I) have or had, online or otherwise.

Besides, you've yourself discussed the option Magrat's described. Just now, right there. That chick's funny witty online dating profile? Funny this option, that you spoke of just now -- personality -- doesn't occur to you, nor a host of others, but only a lack of options does.
When you hear hooves you think horses not zebra.

Get offended all you want but finding people online has a higher percentage of folks doing it because they have no options.

Does that mean everyone doing it is a troll looking individual? No, but I'm likely to ruin into more online than if I were to use more traditional methods.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:34 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I was actually thinking of all that as I was typing it, but decided not to go into it.

Honestly, I think I'd be lucky if I was able to be friends with the only other person on earth. The chances I'd be in love with them seems very, very slim.
Supposing the last two on Earth were male and female and aware that the other existed, pretty soon you would most likely find them together trying to make more humans because that's what humans do.

The whole idea that there is a "soul mate" for each of us is absolutely absurd based on statistics and the other issues you claim not to want to go into.

People tend to find a person they can "live with" to marry. Even that doesn't work out so well with the divorce rate being what it is.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:38 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That's the kind of offensively personal cheap shot that, while taking care to stay within MA bounds, sometimes renders this otherwise fantastic place unpleasant.
When a member here makes their personal life part of the discussion, it is fair play to comment on that personal life. If you don't want it discussed. don't bring it up.

Often you find members bringing up their personal life, having it commented on, and then taking offence in an attempt to salvage their side of a discussion. That the real cheap shot.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:52 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
The whole idea that there is a "soul mate" for each of us is absolutely absurd based on statistics and the other issues you claim not to want to go into.
The idea that you call what’s been discussed here “soul mate” talk is absurd.

Some people just don’t want to be in a relationship enough to “settle” anyways.
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Old 28th January 2019, 08:01 AM   #268
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Everything's much easier, and more pleasant, when you give up the insane assumption that physical lust, romantic love, and friendship can and must be combined into a single relationship with just one other person. Not only are the odds very against truly finding all three in one package, but then making it last for a lifetime? What a terrible burden to put on people! No wonder so many are unhappy.
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Old 28th January 2019, 08:44 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
the women you work with honestly sound like some of the worst women on earth.
The simplest & most straightforward response to this would be that now we're back on the original subject, because simply lashing out that someone who doesn't do what you want him/her to do is a horrible person (and that apparently somehow makes them not count as if they didn't exist) is certainly "toxic". But I'll also use it for a bit of a closer look at exactly who "those women" are and what it means for observations of them from other people's perspectives.

So, who are they? Exactly what makes them different from other women? Isolating just that one item from a list as you did means treating that one item as an exception that's different from the rest of the world. But it was a typical example. The same behavior is always all around, job after job, semester after semester, year after year, overheard passing by on sidewalks and in malls, getting gratuitously inserted into conversations on other subjects, from one boy-band or new bodybuilding star actor or whoever to the next, from one city or town to another. It would be weird to find a setting where it would not be this way. So this category "women who act like exactly as women would act if they all only wanted the same few men" (we'll call it W1) is not some odd obscure exception. It's all of them. Knock one down as a horrible person (because that means she isn't really real or something), and there are countless others left right behind her. That's where the thing about "claiming to be the one and only exception" came from: because if a woman who says she's not in W1 is describing herself accurately, then she by definition has to be the exception by a very wide margin, whether the explicitly calls herself that or not.

So then, who would be the alternative (W2)? What makes women who say the kind of stuff you're saying in this thread different from W1, whom you depict as being so rare & odd?... because if W1 actually is/were such rare easily-dismissed outliers as you say, then an alternative we could call W2 would need to be pretty common.

And it is. Nothing that's been said in this thread has been new or unusual either. We're all quite used to hearing, over & over again, this whole spiel about women not caring about looks, and how love finds a way to make it all come out fairly or something, and what bizarre misfits W1 are. But who does it come from? Members of W1. One recent example for me was even from those dreaded awful current co-workers of mine. W1 and W2 are the same people, acting like W1 most of the time by far, then switching to W2 Mode just for this exact conversation where W1's existence must be denied and they claim to be totally mystified as to how anybody could ever think they'd act like W1 (even when reminded of specific individual examples), then reverting right back to W1 Mode as soon as this isn't the subject anymore.

You couldn't set up a background in which the inherent dishonesty of the W2 spiel could get any more obvious. You also couldn't set up a background in which there were any less reason to believe that yet another W2 spiel isn't coming from yet another W1 (even if the listener hasn't actually seen this individual's W1 side yet, because experience tells that they all have one).
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Old 28th January 2019, 08:44 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Supposing the last two on Earth were male and female and aware that the other existed, pretty soon you would most likely find them together trying to make more humans because that's what humans do.

The whole idea that there is a "soul mate" for each of us is absolutely absurd based on statistics and the other issues you claim not to want to go into.

People tend to find a person they can "live with" to marry. Even that doesn't work out so well with the divorce rate being what it is.
Who was talking about soul mates? Strawman much?

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Everything's much easier, and more pleasant, when you give up the insane assumption that physical lust, romantic love, and friendship can and must be combined into a single relationship with just one other person. Not only are the odds very against truly finding all three in one package, but then making it last for a lifetime? What a terrible burden to put on people! No wonder so many are unhappy.
I can agree with that for the most part. My ex expected me to be everything to him and would get angry if I didnt provide for his every emotional need. People can be in love and love for many years, but they need to have lives outside of each other as well as together.
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Old 28th January 2019, 09:18 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
(...)a lot of women carry on about how much they want certain men and the fact that it's always the same very few men (this one tends to get denied a lot, but as soon as I'm done hearing/reading the denial, I'm treated to another conversation where my co-workers, regardless of their marital or dating status, gush about how "yummy" one guy or another they've seen at work is and how much they wish they could get him themselves as a result, or I'm treated to another meme of Aquaman or someone else like that with a caption that not only describes some overtly sexual fantasy about the guy in the picture but also might throw in a "why am I with my boyfriend when he doesn't look like this").

"Why am I with my boyfriend when he doesn't look like x" is insulting if you take it seriously and gets up my nose a bit in the same way that the "why doesn't my fishing boat come with these" memes of hot buxom models on boats that my FIL emails to his sons do. But I do recognize that it's meant in exactly the same way as the Aquaman memes for ladies.

This kind of stuff is really just meant 90% not seriously and is the lady version of the stuff guys would be able to do also in good fun if women in general weren't afraid it was too real. In the interest of proper equity they should knock it off until we all feel comfortable enough to ignore it or find it fun; making guys uncomfortable in the workplace is not any better than making women uncomfortable in the workplace.

That's actually probably a pretty good example of toxic femininity - the idea that it's totally OK to joke around in ways we don't want to tolerate men joking around, and that if any man feels uncomfortable about it he's just being too sensitive, where we really do not want to tolerate the idea that a woman feeling uncomfortable about that kind of thing from men is just being too sensitive. "Not all women" do that kind of thing but I'd hazard a guess that it's reasonably commonplace.

Last edited by Lithrael; 28th January 2019 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 28th January 2019, 09:34 AM   #272
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It's easier to be gay. You can be honest that yes, you'd rather be with someone who looks like Thor, while also accepting that no, you don't look like Thor yourself so it would be crazy to set your actual expectations as high as your fantasies. And since the other guy is feeling the exact same way about you there's no cause for hurt feelings.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:00 AM   #273
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One thing I've learned by working in mostly female environments is that women do the same exact kinds of things men do but just expressed a little differently. They talk to each other about men in sexual ways. They make comments to each other about the attractiveness of various men that walk in to the office. When they feel comfortable, they have no problem making sexual jokes. When I've walked into these conversations, they clam up pretty quick; if I walked into such a conversation with men, they would most likely include me.

They just aren't as open about it as men are and they aren't as likely to be aggressive about expressing their sexuality and desires towards potential partners. And maybe that's the "toxic femininity;" this suppression of their sexual selves in service to some social pressure to be demure.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:04 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's easier to be gay. You can be honest that yes, you'd rather be with someone who looks like Thor, while also accepting that no, you don't look like Thor yourself so it would be crazy to set your actual expectations as high as your fantasies. And since the other guy is feeling the exact same way about you there's no cause for hurt feelings.
That really seems to be about rejecting toxic monogamous culture.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:13 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That really seems to be about rejecting toxic monogamous culture.
I think it overlaps, but isn't precisely the same. Being attracted to your own sex means you have commonalities with your partners that opposite-sex couples don't have. If you can both fantasize about the same object there is no automatic rivalry between your real partner and fantasy one.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:17 AM   #276
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Femininity, is a good thing which contributes greatly to the well being of our culture.
Masculinity, is also a good thing which contributes greatly to the well being of our culture.

Describing bad behavior as some kind of "toxic" version of masculinity or femininity is akin to describing drowning as "death by toxic hydration".
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:17 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it overlaps, but isn't precisely the same. Being attracted to your own sex means you have commonalities with your partners that opposite-sex couples don't have. If you can both fantasize about the same object there is no automatic rivalry between your real partner and fantasy one.
Not really, first off there is also the whole issue of bisexual, and even without that it is the rivalry thing stems from the idea that they need to choose one and the that would mean they wouldn't have their existing partner.

When you understand that your partner is with you because they want to be with you, and not because it is the best they can do until something better comes along, things change a lot.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:18 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Femininity, is a good thing which contributes greatly to the well being of our culture.
Masculinity, is also a good thing which contributes greatly to the well being of our culture.

Describing bad behavior as some kind of "toxic" version of masculinity or femininity is akin to describing drowning as "death by toxic hydration".
See water poisoning.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1770067/

So yes that does kill people.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:27 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's easier to be gay. You can be honest that yes, you'd rather be with someone who looks like Thor, while also accepting that no, you don't look like Thor yourself so it would be crazy to set your actual expectations as high as your fantasies. And since the other guy is feeling the exact same way about you there's no cause for hurt feelings.
I think there might be a monogamous/straight continuum the way there's a gay/straight one?

I actually would rather be with my husband than some dude who looks like Thor. Seriously. I don't actually want to have sex with the most beautiful people. They're just pretty like art to me.

It might just be a female thing, tho.
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:44 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think there might be a monogamous/straight continuum the way there's a gay/straight one?

I actually would rather be with my husband than some dude who looks like Thor. Seriously. I don't actually want to have sex with the most beautiful people. They're just pretty like art to me.

It might just be a female thing, tho.
I can only answer for myself, but I have no difficulty wanting different things from different people. Sometimes you want to hold hands under the stars, and sometimes you want to choke a guy until he orgasms. They don't have to be the same guy. In fact, wouldn't it be a bit weird if it was?
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