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#321 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,224
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"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#322 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,578
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
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#323 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,224
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"How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be." |
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#324 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,578
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
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#325 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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I knew you were full of **** when you wrote, "A photo is a hell of a lot more accurate than someone's self-report about their own intelligence and personality," but I went along with it because the data will own you either way. Now, being a weasel, you have to talk out the other side of your mouth.
Yes, an independent third party personality profile is not valued as highly as a pretty face. Do you care to guess why? In self-posted profiles where an author can write almost as much as s/he wants, and back it up with photographs volunteering to rehabilitate abused dogs and help at-risk youth, the looks of the individual matter. They matter quite a bit. Is this really so difficult to comprehend? |
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#326 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#327 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#328 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,812
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#329 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,578
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Well, this is true. I'm reminded of an Olympic Superbowl High-Status Market-Dominating Professional SuperDater's charity work profile bio about helping stop massacres in Africa.
Originally Posted by journalist
Originally Posted by Olympic Superbowl High-Status Market-Dominating Professional SuperDater
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
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#330 |
Scholar
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 95
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#331 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#332 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#333 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#334 |
Scholar
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 52
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Whenever in work or life I have come across a very handsome attached guy, if I bet his partner would be good looking too, I reckon I'd have been correct a hell of a lot more than 50%. Yeah it's not scientific, but anyone that believes looks don't matter are simply ignoring reality.
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#335 |
Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 233
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Not sure if this has been discussed here in this thread or in another but just this month the American Psychological Association has deemed traditional masculinity harmful.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx |
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#336 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,457
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#337 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,457
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It's been debunked. New analysis suggests most Milgram participants realised the ”obedience experiments” were not really dangerous (Research Digest, Dec. 12, 2017) Milgram dismayed the world when he revealed how little it took to turn everyday people into torturers – but we were misled (New Scientist, Mar. 14, 2018) The Stanford Prison Experiment was massively influential. We just learned it was a fraud. (Vox, June 13, 2018) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#338 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,440
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If I said I wouldn't be racist if I lived in the 30's, that would be more like what you're talking about. I don't know what I'd be like if I was steeped in a different culture. If I said I wouldn't punch a little kid for food if I was starving to death, that would be more like what you're talking about. I don't know what I'd do if I was desperate to cling to life.
I do know myself a bit though. I struggle to pull other people's splinters so it's not hard for me to reliably say I wouldn't be willing to shock people in an experiment. It doesn't automatically make someone a pretentious better-than-other-people-er to say they wouldn't act to whatever type. Not being in a sexual relationship doesn't rise to the level of 'problem' for me, let alone existential emergency, so I feel confident in saying what I wouldn't put up with for a sexual relationship, whether it's in extreme circumstances or not. |
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#339 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,440
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"Looks don't matter" is a strawman though. What's been described here is that there's a lot more to it than that for most people.
"Frumpy people with great personalities have a much better than average shot at finding fulfilling relationships" doesn't contradict "people that look like magazine models often end up together." |
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#340 |
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Location: Monkey
Posts: 47,338
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#341 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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Non ergo nothi tere vos usque. ![]() ![]() |
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#342 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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Non ergo nothi tere vos usque. ![]() ![]() |
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#343 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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Nobody has said that. To summarize, there is one argument offered that states all women want a super hunk, settle for whatever they can get due to lack of choice, and are lying to themselves if they say this isn't true. The other argument says the first one is bull ****.
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Non ergo nothi tere vos usque. ![]() ![]() |
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#344 |
الشيطان الأبيض
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,680
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Comfortable or uncomfortable is relevant to a policy decision to allow it or not, but beside the point at the moment, which was neither about observers' comfort/discomfort nor an argument that it should or shouldn't be allowed. The behavior's only relevance at the moment is that the fact that it happens makes it a source of information: it demonstrates who they're attracted to and who they're not.
Funny thing about that: a few of the women I've seen doing it have tried to drag me into doing it too... not only by conspicuously asking what I think about one woman or another or what "my type" is, but even by shifting the subject to the fact that I could act the way they act, even when we were actually talking about something else before. (In one case, after claiming that women don't often expose who they're attracted to, then hearing my response "of course you do; there's not a single day I've gone in there without hearing you going on about it", the next response was "you could do that too...". I couldn't imagine what would make her think I wanted to or how it could connect with her own claim just a few seconds before.) It's a very odd blend of seeming to expect sexual attraction to inherently come with an urge to chat about it but also sometimes acting as if nobody else will see or hear you when you do it (because that would be necessary to still be able to say you're mysterious about it later). These two things seem contradictory at first, but can fit together if sexual-attraction-as-a-social-experience is mainly expected to happen among women and it's only men who are expected to be unaware of it because men are usually outside it. (Which happens to be exactly what would be expected in a naturally harem-forming social species.) Then it only becomes contradictory if/when that usual separation is broken, such as when a woman finds out that a man does hear them doing it or tries to get a man to do the same thing. "Poor self-image" may be a fair enough description of the reaction to the observed facts, but not of the mere willingness to admit that unpleasant observed facts just are the way things are whether we like them or not. I've run into this "expectations" thing a few times before. I've never gotten how the person who said it thought it would be relevant. We all know that what we're attracted to is not determined by what we expect. |
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#345 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#346 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#347 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#348 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,440
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I'm not convinced it does. I think it's more a social/fun/play kind of thing. In the same way, I don't think the guy that forwards 'why aren't these swimsuit models on my fishing boat' memes actually wants those swimsuit models on his fishing boat. It's more fun to think about than it is to get. I expect that goes a little ways for typical men and a long ways for typical women.
Similarly, I don't actually want a Ferrari, at all, ever. But I might coo over one in a parking lot and point it out to my friends. |
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#349 | |||
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,812
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Ah! I see! So this is one of those
threads? |
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#350 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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I have not seen in any way this be established as a fact. It is an opinion masquerading as fact. furthermore, if it is a "fact" that women are lying to themselves about the "fact" they've settled for someone they didn't really want, how on earth could you prove that in a statistical manner? It is unprovable and very far from being an "observed fact", unpleasant or not.
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#351 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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Non ergo nothi tere vos usque. ![]() ![]() |
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#352 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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You're aping the language of your betters. Maybe people at work are impressed when you use words like "spurious," but you're not supporting your argument. This is an introductory paragraph at best.
Just because a guy wears designer clothes does not mean he's rich in resources. He could be an impostor. Maybe some people are foolish enough to fall for the "kiddo" posturing and "Hitchen's Razor," but they're likely suckers getting played. |
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#353 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,582
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Did not watch the video. If you have an argument, try to make it. Given the title of the video, "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?" I'm going to guess that's the point you're struggling to score.
You're presumably inferring that I'm saying women should be more like men. No. If I say men should be less violent, am I suggesting they should be more like woman? No, I'm saying they should be better people. Regarding looks, I'm claiming women are more similar to men than often assumed. Appearance is important to men, and it's important to women. Instead of confronting this point, critics are reduced to attempting to frame me as suggesting women are scheming bitchez. Anyone who has a good sense of the way the world ought to be can probably be more accepting of the way that it is. Evolution is infamously red in tooth and claw. There are animals who survive by eating other animals. It's ****** up. Should men be attracted to fertile looking women? No. Should a woman care if a man is 5'4" versus 6'4"? No. But I didn't make the rules. |
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April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years. |
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#354 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 47,338
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I for one am not enjoying the radical personality shifts displayed in this thread. I urge everyone to return to taking their medications.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#355 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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Non ergo nothi tere vos usque. ![]() ![]() |
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#356 |
Mrs. Rincewind
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Lancre Kingdom/Adirondack Mountain Region, NY
Posts: 4,181
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Non ergo nothi tere vos usque. ![]() ![]() |
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#357 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,021
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Going back to the OP, I'll start with the two main objections I see to "toxic femininity". It goes along the lines of the geekfeminism article:
Quote:
To rephrase, I see this as two main arguments: 1) Toxic masculinity means hegemonic masculinity. That is, it is a political tool to subjugate women. 2) These things aren't due to femininity, but rather patriarchal/sexist ideology. I find both objections lacking. For the first, take a look at the geekfeminism article on toxic masculinity.
Quote:
That's it for a definition. As the idea is often discussed and introduced, it looks like the "traditional masculinity ideology" from the APA report.
Quote:
There is no mention of a hegemonic component or requirement in these definitions. For the second argument, the language is sloppy. The point of toxic masculinity is that these things are rigid, socially enforced standards, not masculinity itself. Objecting that toxic femininity doesn't count because it isn't femininity is rather silly. Of course, depending on what the issue is, it is true that there are female patterns of abuse that are not due to toxic femininity, just as there are male patterns of abuse that are not due to toxic masculinity. For toxic femininity, I would describe it as the inverse of the above definitions. How is feminine ideology as a set of descriptive, prescriptive, and prescriptive cognition about women harmful to women, as well as men? I think this is a continuum from "conservative femininity", the archetypes of which would be stay at home mothers in religious communities, to "benevolent sexism", which I believe a lot of people who call themselves feminists actually still buy into. Generally, anything relating to children brings out tons of toxic femininity. The mom groups on Facebook are infamous. And heaven forbid you are a woman over 30 who hasn't popped out a kid. People often say that men have to prove masculinity more than women have to prove femininity, but I think this is a key counterargument. The benevolent sexist attitude is more prevalent in my social circles, so it irritates me more. The idea that women are cooperators, social brokers, or peacemakers (unlike violent men) sounds good. But like with stoicism for men, it becomes maladaptive. You end up with people so conflict averse that problems are never addressed, but people are bullied (with smiling plausible deniability) out of the office. All women are beautiful and worthy, so discussing obesity is horrifically offensive. The fat activist crowd is almost 100% women. A woman's worth is derived from appreciation from others. So we get the beauty industry, facetuning, body image issues, Instagram and social media obsession, etc. And also cheating and other self-destructive acts in order to get appreciation. Women are to be protected, so violence against men is permissible. I see two major counterarguments to the existence of both: 1) These are due to biological differences, not society. 2) These are real, but necessary. Healthy men and women are not the goal, but propagation/survival/virtue/something else. I don't find either terribly compelling. |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#358 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,578
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The height thing is real, but it's completely different from all the other metrics that comprise "attractiveness". It (very often) makes the woman feel less physically feminine (part of "beautiful") herself when she's with a guy who's shorter than her. If the same girl were only 5'1" herself, she'd quite possibly find that same 5'4" man super desirable.
And I'm sure the girls/women who strongly prefer to be with the traditional uberhunks exist, but I see no reason to think they're not a minority. And like I said before, I have known some uberhunks who no girls, no matter how into that look they might usually be, wanted to date, because the dudes had noticeable personality issues that made them incompatible with relationships (or even close friendship) and thus not attractive. |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
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#359 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,021
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#360 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 47,338
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Y'all crazy. Short guys are hot!
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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