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Tags conservative , LGBTQ , LGBTQ rights

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Old 26th January 2019, 01:13 PM   #1
Magrat
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Question on Conservative Mindset

I came upon an interesting quote in the book Becoming Nicole by Amy Ellis Nutt. This book is about a transgendered (M to F) child. When the child, Nicole, was in 5th grade, the parent of another child became aware of Nicole being transgendered and objected forcefully to Nicole using the female bathroom while having been born male.

The parent was quoted as saying he "felt as if his rights were being infringed upon every time his country invented new ones for special interest groups". Specifically, this person had fought against gay marriage for this reason.

I am politically and socially liberal (which I am presuming is relevant, but please correct me if it is not), and I don't understand how giving rights to one person impacts my rights. For instance, as a straight woman, I cannot see how giving gay people the right to get married impacts me. It doesn't remove my right to get married.

Could anyone explain this? Having read it, I am coming to see how a mindset like this would support anti-LGBTQ actions. what I am asking is, could you explain why you would see things this way? What is being taken away from you? thank you.
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Old 26th January 2019, 01:47 PM   #2
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IMO, many Conservatives feel like America is their country. It's set up to benefit "their kind" of people, and they think that's how it should be. Whenever they see measures meant to accommodate those who are not "their kind", they feel it's a little bit of dominance and control that they've lost. Why if that went on long enough, other people may wind up in the position to dominate them. And then what?
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Old 26th January 2019, 01:51 PM   #3
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All conservatives are anti-trans now?


I guess they are all anti-abortion and anti-gay as well?
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th January 2019, 02:00 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
All conservatives are anti-trans now?


I guess they are all anti-abortion and anti-gay as well?
Well, either that or ambivalent.
If there are pro LGBT conservatives, they aren't having any political impact.
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:02 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
All conservatives are anti-trans now?


I guess they are all anti-abortion and anti-gay as well?
Where did I say that? I asked for insight about a specific person's statement. It would take some fairly thin skin to see anything I said in the OP as an attack on anyone or any group.

eta I didnt even mention conservatives in the question...
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
IMO, many Conservatives feel like America is their country. It's set up to benefit "their kind" of people, and they think that's how it should be. Whenever they see measures meant to accommodate those who are not "their kind", they feel it's a little bit of dominance and control that they've lost. Why if that went on long enough, other people may wind up in the position to dominate them. And then what?
This is similar to what I thought, and Im wondering if it would be the case for racism as well. Id be interested to hear an alternative explanation though if there is one.
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:23 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
... I cannot see how giving gay people the right to get married impacts me. It doesn't remove my right to get married.

Could anyone explain this? ... could you explain why you would see things this way? What is being taken away from you? thank you.
The club mentality, if I may call it that. If this club lets in the riff-raff, it dilutes my sense of worth in belonging to that club.

That's crazy at many levels. It reeks of entitlement. Of exclusivity, without really being deserving of anything special. Of elitism, based not on any kind of intrinsic merit but simply in terms of keeping the Other out.

And it reflects on how little these freaks value, for instance, the institution of marriage in itself. They value it more as a marker of "their" way of life, their identity.

Like I said, crazy, at more levels than one.
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
The club mentality, if I may call it that. If this club lets in the riff-raff, it dilutes my sense of worth in belonging to that club.

That's crazy at many levels. It reeks of entitlement. Of exclusivity, without really being deserving of anything special. Of elitism, based not on any kind of intrinsic merit but simply in terms of keeping the Other out.

And it reflects on how little these freaks value, for instance, the institution of marriage in itself. They value it more as a marker of "their" way of life, their identity.

Like I said, crazy, at more levels than one.
Along the same lines as poor whites hating poor blacks instead of the rich whites that are actually oppressing them?
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
All conservatives are anti-trans now?


I guess they are all anti-abortion and anti-gay as well?
All? No. Merely the ones in charge of the party and the policies it enacts.
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:49 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
This is similar to what I thought, and Im wondering if it would be the case for racism as well. Id be interested to hear an alternative explanation though if there is one.
I steered clear of race, because I think "our kind" of person means different things to difference conservatives. For some, yeah, "our kind" means "white", but it can also mean "christian", "rural", "successful go-getters", etc. There's probably a lot of overlap between those categories, too, but whilst many or most conservatives would fall within at least one or two of those groups, it would be wrong to think that every conservative matches any of them, let alone all of them.
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:55 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Where did I say that? I asked for insight about a specific person's statement. It would take some fairly thin skin to see anything I said in the OP as an attack on anyone or any group.

eta I didnt even mention conservatives in the question...
I think the clue might be in having such a broad thread title.

But fair enough

Now it has been explained the title is pointlessly irrelevant.

Do you have any stats that all conservative politicians are anti trans?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:55 PM   #12
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I think a conservative mindset - by definition one in which change is resisted - may justify such resistance with whatever seems logical. A more changeable mindset would likely do the opposite. I am wondering if it boils down simply to how comfortable one is with change. Does that make sense to any one?
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Old 26th January 2019, 03:57 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think the clue might be in having such a broad thread title.

But fair enough

Now it has been explained the title is pointlessly irrelevant.

Do you have any stats that all conservative politicians are anti trans?
I have just clarified that I was referring to conservative by definition and not as a political party. No where do I mention conservatives as a political group. If you'd like to contribute to answering the question I welcome your input, but dithering over semantical straw men is pointless. I was very clear in the OP that I am trying to understand a specific person's statement.


eta:
Quote:
conservative[kuh n-sur-vuh-tiv]
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR conservative ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
cautiously moderate or purposefully low:
a conservative estimate.
traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness:
conservative suit.
The quoted individual is of a conservative mindset in that he is fighting change. Also, who was talking about politicians?
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I have just clarified that I was referring to conservative by definition and not as a political party. No where do I mention conservatives as a political group. If you'd like to contribute to answering the question I welcome your input, but dithering over semantical straw men is pointless. I was very clear in the OP that I am trying to understand a specific person's statement.
Which brings it back to my original point.

What do you mean by conservative any way?

There are people who are fiscally cons', socially cons', religious, scientific......etc etc

And not all of them are part of each group

Do you just mean fundamental religious?

I know you think it is a strawman, but it isn't.

It's pointing out you are slagging an extremely large group off with no evidence.

It would be like me saying why to non-conservative people care about everyone more?

When there are a huge amount of them who are ******* as they don't practice what they preach
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Which brings it back to my original point.

What do you mean by conservative any way?

There are people who are fiscally cons', socially cons', religious, scientific......etc etc

And not all of them are part of each group

Do you just mean fundamental religious?

I know you think it is a strawman, but it isn't.

It's pointing out you are slagging an extremely large group off with no evidence.

It would be like me saying why to non-conservative people care about everyone more?

When there are a huge amount of them who are ******* as they don't practice what they preach
I legitimately cannot be any more clear. I am asking about a specific quote from a specific person. You keep trying to make this about political groups, no matter how many times I say this. The individual I quote is of a mindset that is resistant to change (which is defined as conservative in the English language). I am speaking solely about the individual I quoted, and trying to understand the mindset that this person had, based on the quote I provided.

I have not mentioned any groups. I have not attributed any beliefs to any groups. I don't know what slagging is but I haven't done that either. Please, for the love of pasta, could we talk about what I actually have said and not whatever this is you're getting from who knows where?
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I legitimately cannot be any more clear. I am asking about a specific quote from a specific person. You keep trying to make this about political groups, no matter how many times I say this. The individual I quote is of a mindset that is resistant to change (which is defined as conservative in the English language). I am speaking solely about the individual I quoted, and trying to understand the mindset that this person had, based on the quote I provided.

I have not mentioned any groups. I have not attributed any beliefs to any groups. I don't know what slagging is but I haven't done that either. Please, for the love of pasta, could we talk about what I actually have said and not whatever this is you're getting from who knows where?
Then why is the title not "Question on this person's mindset"?

Because as it is, it is a massively large brush painting a huge amount of people a derogatory colour

Conservatism is not solely a political concept.

And I wasn't the one who even brought politics into it. Others did

Quote:
Well, either that or ambivalent.
If there are pro LGBT conservatives, they aren't having any political impact.
Quote:
All? No. Merely the ones in charge of the party and the policies it enacts.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th January 2019, 04:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then why is the title not "Question on this person's mindset"?

Because as it is, it is a massively large brush painting a huge amount of people a derogatory colour

Conservatism is not solely a political concept.

And I wasn't the one who even brought politics into it. Others did
Because he is by definition of a conservative mindset. The political group doesn't own the word. I was asking for people who are also conservatively minded to help me understand what this person is thinking. Hence, that's what I wrote. You chose to take an adjective and turn it into a name, which is confusing because nothing I wrote in the op supports that interpretation. did you read the op?

as for point 2, why then did you repeatedly demanded that I defend those statements when I didn't say it? You've asked me over and over to defend a viewpoint I don't hold about a group I didn't mention and am not talking about.

If you yourself are of a conservative bent I would very much like to hear your thoughts on why the individual in the OP would feel and act the way he did. Otherwise can we please stop derailing the thread now?
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:02 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Along the same lines as poor whites hating poor blacks instead of the rich whites that are actually oppressing them?
it's like this. I've been a fan of Tolkien since before Middle Earth became fashionable and 'in'. Now if my appreciation of his works derives primarily from a (spurious) sense of exclusivity, then I'll see the embracing of Hobbiton by Hollywood as Tolkien going to hell in a bucket. And that's crazy at many levels.

And that, IMO, is exactly what's going on with these freaks. That, coupled with a sense of entitlement.

Otherwise, like you say, why would legalizing even troika-marriages, for instance, at all imact what I've got going with my partner?
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:07 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
it's like this. I've been a fan of Tolkien since before Middle Earth became fashionable and 'in'. Now if my appreciation of his works derives primarily from a (spurious) sense of exclusivity, then I'll see the embracing of Hobbiton by Hollywood as Tolkien going to hell in a bucket. And that's crazy at many levels.

And that, IMO, is exactly what's going on with these freaks. That, coupled with a sense of entitlement.

Otherwise, like you say, why would legalizing even troika-marriages, for instance, at all imact what I've got going with my partner?
So, they're hipsters? That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you.

what is troika?
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:10 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Because he is by definition of a conservative mindset. The political group doesn't own the word. I was asking for people who are also conservatively minded to help me understand what this person is thinking. Hence, that's what I wrote. You chose to take an adjective and turn it into a name, which is confusing because nothing I wrote in the op supports that interpretation. did you read the op?

as for point 2, why then did you repeatedly demanded that I defend those statements when I didn't say it? You've asked me over and over to defend a viewpoint I don't hold about a group I didn't mention and am not talking about.

If you yourself are of a conservative bent I would very much like to hear your thoughts on why the individual in the OP would feel and act the way he did. Otherwise can we please stop derailing the thread now?
What proof do you have that your persons views are shared by the majority of conservative people?

What is your definition of your personal view of what is conservative.

I personally would consider my self slightly conservative in most things apart from social issues.

I agree with universal healthcare and benefits to those less fortunate till they can get themselves out of whatever individual hole they are in.

I have zero problem with any people as frankly I don't care what people do if it doesn't harm me or anyone else.

Gay. Trans...You name it, I don't give a *****

And they should all have the same rights as everyone else with as little hassle as possible.

But apparently because I am conservative in most other things this is wrong and I'm anti-trans according to your thread title
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What proof do you have that your persons views are shared by the majority of conservative people?

What is your definition of your personal view of what is conservative.

I personally would consider my self slightly conservative in most things apart from social issues.

I agree with universal healthcare and benefits to those less fortunate till they can get themselves out of whatever individual hole they are in.

I have zero problem with any people as frankly I don't care what people do if it doesn't harm me or anyone else.

Gay. Trans...You name it, I don't give a *****

And they should all have the same rights as everyone else with as little hassle as possible.

But apparently because I am conservative in most other things this is wrong and I'm anti-trans according to your thread title
Your interpretation is similar to if I had said "Democratic elections were held in the Congo" and from that you determined all congolese were Democrats.

seriously, could you please move on? I never said or implied any such thing and repeating it doesn't make it more true. I do not see why you continue posting on the thread if you are making no effort to answer the question I asked and have repeatedly clarified.
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:21 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
So, they're hipsters? That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you.

what is troika?
you're welcome!

hipsters chase fads, these guys are more "conservative", more stick-in-the-mud. That is why the club analogy works better than the Tolkien analogy, to convey my meaning.

Troika? You spoke of gay pairings, I stretched that to include three-way "marriages" (which isn't legal, outside of SF). Or marrying a sex doll, apparently someone in Japan did something like that.

My point was, like you say, how does legalizing even 3-way unions affect me and marriage, unless how I value my marriage is all twisted and crazy?
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Because he is by definition of a conservative mindset. The political group doesn't own the word. I was asking for people who are also conservatively minded to help me understand what this person is thinking. Hence, that's what I wrote. You chose to take an adjective and turn it into a name, which is confusing because nothing I wrote in the op supports that interpretation. did you read the op?

as for point 2, why then did you repeatedly demanded that I defend those statements when I didn't say it? You've asked me over and over to defend a viewpoint I don't hold about a group I didn't mention and am not talking about.

If you yourself are of a conservative bent I would very much like to hear your thoughts on why the individual in the OP would feel and act the way he did. Otherwise can we please stop derailing the thread now?
"Question on conservative mindset"
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:40 PM   #24
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The interesting bit is a lot of feminists have the same views as the person in the OP.

So apparently TERFs are conservative.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:56 PM   #25
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What you are talking about is a zero sum mindset and I donít think it is confined to conservatives. For example, it is a common belief among some people on the left that if some person X has more money than Y then X must have the money at the expense of Y.

Perhaps in this case some conservatives are worried about, dare I say it, the privileges that can only really exist by definition of someone having something that others donít have. In any case, zero-sum mindsets often exist when solutions donít need to be zero-sum. Trying to get people to see this isnít easy.
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The interesting bit is a lot of feminists have the same views as the person in the OP.

So apparently TERFs are conservative.
Conservative on one axis. Revolutionary on another.
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Question on conservative mindset"
And I say, once again, Conservatives and people who tend toward a conservative mindset are not necessarily the same thing. I'm beginning to think you're taking the piss.
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Old 26th January 2019, 05:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The interesting bit is a lot of feminists have the same views as the person in the OP.

So apparently TERFs are conservative.
Can you provide any data or links about this? Also what is "terf"?
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What you are talking about is a zero sum mindset and I donít think it is confined to conservatives. For example, it is a common belief among some people on the left that if some person X has more money than Y then X must have the money at the expense of Y.

Perhaps in this case some conservatives are worried about, dare I say it, the privileges that can only really exist by definition of someone having something that others donít have. In any case, zero-sum mindsets often exist when solutions donít need to be zero-sum. Trying to get people to see this isnít easy.
The phrase zero-sum is helpful, thank you, I found some interesting things about that. I wasnt referring to conservatives as a political group, as I have stated. But I can see a resistance to change could easily be based on a zero-sum assumption.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Can you provide any data or links about this? Also what is "terf"?
The thing is, TERFs actually have a legitimate form of the complaint in the OP. They really are losing a right because another group is gaining one.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
The phrase zero-sum is helpful, thank you, I found some interesting things about that. I wasnt referring to conservatives as a political group, as I have stated. But I can see a resistance to change could easily be based on a zero-sum assumption.
Congratulations on being one of the 10,000 who are now discovering the concept of the zero-sum game!

( Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1053/ )
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Can you provide any data or links about this? Also what is "terf"?
Feminists who feel trans womens rights demands impact on their fought for feminist demands.

Not particularly something I tend to give and opinion on now except to say I can see both sides and it isn't an easily fixed issue.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TERF

Edit: Changed link as the other was extremely biased to one side
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think the clue might be in having such a broad thread title.

But fair enough

Now it has been explained the title is pointlessly irrelevant.

Do you have any stats that all conservative politicians are anti trans?
How many conservative politicians have spoken out against Trump's trans ban on the military?
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
How many conservative politicians have spoken out against Trump's trans ban on the military?
The post writer has said they aren't talking political.

But if you want to make it that. A shed load.

I'll grant you not US

Is the thread "Question on Conservative Mindset" now narrowed down even further to US conservative politicians?

Some clarification would help, as all parties from the majority of other countries think Trump is an idiot
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:37 PM   #35
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There's an interesting inconsistency with conservatives regarding homosexuality: They believe that gay people can be converted, whereas liberals argue that gays should love and accept themselves the way they are. If, however, you're born a male and want to be a female, then go ahead with surgery and hormones.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:43 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
There's an interesting inconsistency with conservatives regarding homosexuality: They believe that gay people can be converted, whereas liberals argue that gays should love and accept themselves the way they are. If, however, you're born a male and want to be a female, then go ahead with surgery and hormones.
See your problem with this statement is that their are quite a few in the LGBT community who are conservative.

I know it is nice to have bad people wearing black hats and good people wearing white hats.

It is comfy and easy to understand

But in the real world people wear different coloured hats depending on the topic , or grey hats.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Feminists who feel trans womens rights demands impact on their fought for feminist demands.
that would be exactly equivalent to the example in the OP. So absolutely, this isn't necessarily limited to conservatives.

On the other hand, my personal experience has been that it is usually conservatives who do hold views of this nature. Sure, only a minority of conservatives probably hold such views; on the other hand -- in my personal experience at least -- most people who hold such views tend to be conservative as far as their politics.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:48 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
The club mentality, if I may call it that. If this club lets in the riff-raff, it dilutes my sense of worth in belonging to that club.

That's crazy at many levels. It reeks of entitlement. Of exclusivity, without really being deserving of anything special. Of elitism, based not on any kind of intrinsic merit but simply in terms of keeping the Other out.

And it reflects on how little these freaks value, for instance, the institution of marriage in itself. They value it more as a marker of "their" way of life, their identity.

Like I said, crazy, at more levels than one.
But aren't the Libruls just a different club? Different rules: If we don't let in the _____ it dilutes my sense of worth in belonging to MY club?

And with all these splinter groups we've forgotten that we all belong to the same club: America. And what's important to that whole club? "It's the economy, stupid". Gay rights, gun rights, abortion rights have all been through the courts. Further discussions are merely re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I'll swap my guns for meat if the economy goes that bad. How much will health care cost when the country goes bankrupt? Leave your mate for health care? It happens every day. Move to racist state because it's the only way to get food for the family? You betcha.

Discussion like this are a First World Problem. Note that the trans are eating regularly. And so are the Conservatives.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:57 PM   #39
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I was only trying to explain my take on why, for example, some people might consider gay marriages to be a dilution of their own marriage (which kind of view people do express).

Eta: and it is people holding such views, who are the "freaks". I at any rate did not intend this to be a discussion on politics.

That said, like I said, while probably only a small minority of conservatives hold such views, nevertheless my personal experience has been that a majority of those holding such views tend to be conervative in their politics.

Last edited by Chanakya; 26th January 2019 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 26th January 2019, 06:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
that would be exactly equivalent to the example in the OP. So absolutely, this isn't necessarily limited to conservatives.

On the other hand, my personal experience has been that it is usually conservatives who do hold views of this nature. Sure, only a minority of conservatives probably hold such views; on the other hand -- in my personal experience at least -- most people who hold such views tend to be conservative as far as their politics.
I would totally agree.

This is my experience too.

My issue was just the broadness of the thread title.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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