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Tags conservative , LGBTQ , LGBTQ rights

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Old 28th January 2019, 12:09 PM   #81
Magrat
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You are looking for logic or an explanation that will make sense to you but you won't find it. It's all feeling with little rationality behind it. "Gay people/trans people are mentally ill." OR "Gay/trans is an immoral choice." And behind those positions is one singular position: "That stuff is weird and I don't like it."

All the other arguments stem from that fundamental feeling.
Im sorry but that isnt what I was asking.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:10 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I'm just trying to frame this in a more scientific way.

Did Nicole actually have male genitalia?

I'm assuming Nicole was born a male, but because of gender dysphoria, identified as a female?

The other parent objected to someone with male genitalia using the girls bathroom?

Do you think only conservatives would object to a male going into the bathroom of their daughter?
That's not what I'm asking, thank you. I'm asking about a specific quote, as cited in the op.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:12 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

Basically it's an argument from incredulity mixed with flawed premises and a myriad of other fallacies. But you can't really argue them out of their position because the underlying feelings are so strong. Feelings > Science, for too many people.
I can see that, for sure. I am guessing it may be related to the mindset that says, "you can't do that because my religion says so"?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Which is why millennials are not getting more conserve, they have been screwed so hard they are just paying back college loans and such. A bit of a failure on the part of boomers to keep the status quo going really.
I agree.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:15 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
I think a conservative mindset - by definition one in which change is resisted - may justify such resistance with whatever seems logical. A more changeable mindset would likely do the opposite. I am wondering if it boils down simply to how comfortable one is with change. Does that make sense to any one?
I thought this was going to be one of those threads in which lefties pile on their on biases, but then I found this.

This is it. At the core of it, "conservatives" are uncomfortable with change and like progressives they tend to justify their beliefs after the fact with what ever rationale they can find.

As a side, some "rights" of special interested to infringe on the "rights" of others. The whole gay wedding cake thing is an example of that. The "right" of a gay couple to get married doesn't impact the "rights" of straight folks in any meaningful way until you then say that a business will have to bake them a cake in order to stay in business.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:27 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I thought this was going to be one of those threads in which lefties pile on their on biases, but then I found this.

This is it. At the core of it, "conservatives" are uncomfortable with change and like progressives they tend to justify their beliefs after the fact with what ever rationale they can find.

As a side, some "rights" of special interested to infringe on the "rights" of others. The whole gay wedding cake thing is an example of that. The "right" of a gay couple to get married doesn't impact the "rights" of straight folks in any meaningful way until you then say that a business will have to bake them a cake in order to stay in business.
If you look for bias, you shall find it.

Can you explain to me how baking a cake for someone infringes on your rights? Does God dock you a Good Boy Point? It makes legitimately zero sense to me... As an atheist, I would happily take money from a christian couple that was getting married. Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?

I can even kinda see if it required participation in the actual wedding but...baking a cake?? If I am quite honest it just makes the bakery sound dead ass petty.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:35 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
If you look for bias, you shall find it.

Can you explain to me how baking a cake for someone infringes on your rights? Does God dock you a Good Boy Point? It makes legitimately zero sense to me... As an atheist, I would happily take money from a christian couple that was getting married. Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?

I can even kinda see if it required participation in the actual wedding but...baking a cake?? If I am quite honest it just makes the bakery sound dead ass petty.
I think it might be depending on how one views one's status. The zero-sum approach has been mentioned before.

If you think of society as a pecking order, then if one group (gay's for example) are forbidden to marry, then they are below you in the pecking order. If they are then able to marry, they rise in the pecking order and you, as a consequence fall.

If you don't view society as such a pecking order, but as a more collaborative system, then other people doing well might actually reflect well on you.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
If you look for bias, you shall find it.

Can you explain to me how baking a cake for someone infringes on your rights? Does God dock you a Good Boy Point? It makes legitimately zero sense to me... As an atheist, I would happily take money from a christian couple that was getting married. Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?

I can even kinda see if it required participation in the actual wedding but...baking a cake?? If I am quite honest it just makes the bakery sound dead ass petty.
Just to play devils advocate

What if someone asked for an openly racist cake?

Or a gay cake maker gets asked to make an anti-gay cake?

Does it still fall under

"Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?"
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Can you explain to me how baking a cake for someone infringes on your rights?
If you need to have it explained, it's not likely that anyone could explain it to you. It's so incredibly obvious that if an explanation is required, then that same explanation probably won't be understood.


Some of that has to do with the fact that a lot of people haven't really thought through the whole concept of "rights". It's one of those terms that we use a lot, but which a lot of people haven't thought much about. It gets into the whole question of "legal rights" versus "natural rights", and in the US constitution it gets even trickier because the Constitution defines a sort of two layer system of legal rights, in which some rights can be abridged by the legislature, while others cannot.

And then even that gets messed up, because the Supreme Court gets involved and declares that some practice or other gets declared unconstitutional. The effect is that there is a brand new legal right which people enjoy today, but did not enjoy in years past, except that in order to make it fit in with the legal theory of the constitution, the only way they can create the new right is to insist that the right existed for a long time, but no one had really noticed it until the court ruled in a specific case.

Quote:
If I am quite honest it just makes the bakery sound dead ass petty.
In which case, if you outlaw the practice, you are infringing on their right to be dead ass petty. Feel free to do so, but recognize that you are restricting their legal rights.

Any time you make something illegal that had previously been legal, you are infringing on someone's legal rights. That just a definition. In ages past, a restaurant owner had the right to refuse service to black people. Today, they don't. Those discriminatory restaurant owners have lost a legal right.


Today, some people say that cake bakers should have the right to decline to bake cakes if the message on the cake is offensive to their religious beliefs, and they also note that the cake itself carries a message. Other people say that although the cake baker should be able to decline some sorts of business offensive to his religious beliefs, for example refusing to make Halloween themed cakes, there are other messages that are so important that the cake baker should be compelled to create such cakes as a condition of doing business. Of such fine distinctions are court cases made.


But we are getting away from the OP. The question of whether two people ought to be allowed to enter into a legally defined, state-sanctioned, partnership is separate from the question of who ought to be required to bake a cake to celebrate the occasion, and both of those questions are at best peripheral to the question of what is the conservative mindset that explains how the laws create special rights for gay people. If you are interested in expanding the OP to include the question of the conservative mindset that supports allowing people to continue to operate bakeries, even though they won't bake cakes for gay weddings, that's one that I actually understand. I don't understand why the right to get married is a "special right", and I would call it a stretch to say that the right to buy wedding cake is a "special right", but I do understand why some people would object to closing down bakeries who refuse to make cakes for gay weddings.

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Old 28th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just to play devils advocate

What if someone asked for an openly racist cake?

Or a gay cake maker gets asked to make an anti-gay cake?

Does it still fall under

"Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?"
Those are at least stating a point of view. A plain old ordinary wedding cake does not.

Here's the difference: If you asked me to paint your house, I would say sure. If you asked me to paint "******* go home" on your house, I would not.

If you asked me to bake a cake to be brought to a White supremacist event, yes I would bake it. If you asked me to bake a cake in the shape of a black man being linched, no I would not.

eta I actually wouldn't paint your house. Just an illustration.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:02 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Those are at least stating a point of view. A plain old ordinary wedding cake does not.

Here's the difference: If you asked me to paint your house, I would say sure. If you asked me to paint "******* go home" on your house, I would not.

If you asked me to bake a cake to be brought to a White supremacist event, yes I would bake it. If you asked me to bake a cake in the shape of a black man being linched, no I would not.

eta I actually wouldn't paint your house. Just an illustration.
Would you bake a cake with a message celebrating the 50 year anniversery of the founding of a local KKK chapter? Would you bake a cake with a Nazi flag on it with no words? It's a fine line between what is a message and what is not.

The point is that laws or rulings that say that someone cannot refuse service to _____ group for ______ reason by definition limits a business person's right to choose what clients he will do business with and what services he will provide. It doesn't matter what the service is or who the client is.

That said, I have a lot more sympathy with declining to bake Nazi/KKK cakes than gay wedding cakes. But there is a logic to the argument.

Now, to the point in the original post: how does this fit into the case of the transgender girl going into the girl's bathroom? To them, a girls' bathroom is a space exclusive to girls, not just in terms of gender, but in terms of sex. So allowing trans girls with male sexual organs into the girls' room infringes on their daughter's right to a space with only female genitalia present. It's akin to the reasons why brothers and sisters should close the bathroom door when taking a shower or changing clothes. Basically, they see it as infringing on the rights to traditionally segregated bathrooms.

There is some nuance: some people who are against transgender bathroom access are otherwise supportive. Or some people may have no problems with bathrooms, but locker rooms/gym showers are a different issue to them.

In my experience, very few people are conservative on every issue and very few people are liberal on every issue. People are more complex than that.
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Old 29th January 2019, 07:30 AM   #91
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TomB but my question was, what is being lost by the person making the cake? I never asked should they be allowed to deny. I want to know how their rights are being infringed.

Example: If my neighbor builds a fence between our properties and it is a foot onto my side, I can say he has infringed upon my property, and point to it.

What exactly is being lost in baking a cake? To my mind youre only losing if you dont bake it.

eta specifically making a wedding cake for a gay couple. I can sorta see if the cake has writing/pictures whatever you object to, but a wedding cake is just a cake. Im assuming for sake of argument it doesnt say HAPPY GAY WEDDING or have two intertwined vaginas or something.
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Old 29th January 2019, 07:49 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just to play devils advocate

What if someone asked for an openly racist cake?

Or a gay cake maker gets asked to make an anti-gay cake?

Does it still fall under

"Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?"
Or a cake that condones miscegenation! Refusing interracial couples is of course protected speech, also for the wrong religions like jews just like when placing foster kids.

Really all anti-discrimination laws are violently anti conservative.
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Old 29th January 2019, 07:53 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Would you bake a cake with a message celebrating the 50 year anniversery of the founding of a local KKK chapter? Would you bake a cake with a Nazi flag on it with no words? It's a fine line between what is a message and what is not.

The point is that laws or rulings that say that someone cannot refuse service to _____ group for ______ reason by definition limits a business person's right to choose what clients he will do business with and what services he will provide. It doesn't matter what the service is or who the client is.
Exactly removing all those proper racial limits on home sales was the kind of anti conservative measure that no one would really stand for. Those people all purchased those homes on the understanding that non whites would be kept out and then you have the "antidiscrimination" ruling destroying their property value!!!!
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Old 29th January 2019, 09:34 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
What exactly is being lost in baking a cake?
When you bake a cake, you lose the opportunity to do something else with the time, money, and other resources you spent on baking the cake. Maybe you could have baked a different, more profitable cake. Maybe you could have given the money you spent on ingredients to the homeless person on the street outside your bakery. Maybe you could have gone home and spent the time with your family. The exact opportunity cost of baking a cake will vary from baker to baker, and from cake to cake.

But that's not the question. The question is, what is lost when someone is granted an entitlement to your cake. And in that case, what is lost is your freedom to choose for yourself whether to bake a cake. It's actually a very clear example of a right that can only be granted to one group by taking away a right from another group.
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Old 29th January 2019, 09:39 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you bake a cake, you lose the opportunity to do something else with the time, money, and other resources you spent on baking the cake. Maybe you could have baked a different, more profitable cake.
Which of course would be a totally legal reason to refuse to bake any cake. Remember the issue here is about your right to refuse based on them being a protected group like gay, black or what have you. Refusing service for more profitable service is always allowed.

See why the guy claiming he got refused service for wearing a Trump hat had to claim wearing a trump hat at all times was a religious duty(and thus a protected class) when he got kicked out of a bar for being rude to the staff.

Where were all the conservatives supporting the bar for kicking him out for wearing a hat?


Quote:
But that's not the question. The question is, what is lost when someone is granted an entitlement to your cake. And in that case, what is lost is your freedom to choose for yourself whether to bake a cake. It's actually a very clear example of a right that can only be granted to one group by taking away a right from another group.
If you really don't want to bake people cakes, don't open a cake shop.
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Old 29th January 2019, 09:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just to play devils advocate

What if someone asked for an openly racist cake?

Or a gay cake maker gets asked to make an anti-gay cake?

Does it still fall under

"Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?"
Even worse, what if someone asked for an overtly racist cake?

Then the cake maker was forced to decide if it met his racist threshold.

Or maybe they should have a panel that would determine for the baker, if the cake was not racist enough for him to deny it.

Actually, how about you just let private business people decide for themselves what they want to make or not want to make? That is what we already do right?
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Old 29th January 2019, 09:53 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
That's not what I'm asking, thank you. I'm asking about a specific quote, as cited in the op.
I don't think you can get the information you're looking for, from the quote you cited.

In fact, I have several problems with that cite anyway.
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:10 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you bake a cake, you lose the opportunity to do something else with the time, money, and other resources you spent on baking the cake. Maybe you could have baked a different, more profitable cake. Maybe you could have given the money you spent on ingredients to the homeless person on the street outside your bakery. Maybe you could have gone home and spent the time with your family. The exact opportunity cost of baking a cake will vary from baker to baker, and from cake to cake.

But that's not the question. The question is, what is lost when someone is granted an entitlement to your cake. And in that case, what is lost is your freedom to choose for yourself whether to bake a cake. It's actually a very clear example of a right that can only be granted to one group by taking away a right from another group.
Yes, but the issue was that the baker was turning down a profit because of "infringement on his/her religion". So they were LOSING profit, because if they made the cake they would feel they had LOST ________. The blank is what I'm asking about.

Apparently I am not the only one who questions what is actually being infringed upon. In the Autumn 2018 issue of Employee Relations Law Journal, a case was cited wherein an employee of a funeral parlor was fired after telling their boss they were transgender. The boss cited that his religion would be infringed upon by working with a transgendered person. He said (direct quote) "he terminated the plaintiff because his religious belief that transgendered persons and persons seeking to change their sex were acting against God's will". He also cited the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

The boss lost the case.

More recently there has been a verdict in favor of a Christian baker by the Supreme Court. So what we have is many judicial verdicts, some going one way, some going another.

But I still do not see what the Christian is losing. They are losing money by turning down the order. What are they losing by filling it? Again I am referring to just an ordinary wedding cake, not participation in a ceremony, not making a cake with "Christians Suck!" on it.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think you can get the information you're looking for, from the quote you cited.

In fact, I have several problems with that cite anyway.
The ISBN of the book is 978-0-8129-9541-1 and individual quoted is Paul Melanson. Though a google search you should be able to find plenty of news media coverage of his various activities and many quotes that support the statement recorded in the book. Please feel free to post any "problems" you have with the quote after you have researched and I'll address them as I am able.
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:57 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Yes, but the issue was that the baker was turning down a profit because of "infringement on his/her religion". So they were LOSING profit, because if they made the cake they would feel they had LOST ________. The blank is what I'm asking about.
It depends on the specific circumstances, but one thing they lose is the opportunity to not participate in something they don't want to participate in.

If they're required to bake the cake anyway, they also lose the right to decide for themselves whether to bake the cake.

Do you disagree with/not understand either of these propositions?
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:59 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
The ISBN of the book is 978-0-8129-9541-1 and individual quoted is Paul Melanson. Though a google search you should be able to find plenty of news media coverage of his various activities and many quotes that support the statement recorded in the book. Please feel free to post any "problems" you have with the quote after you have researched and I'll address them as I am able.
In that case, I think the only person who can meaningfully answer your question is Paul Melanson. I'm not going to waste any time studying his body of work and trying to get inside his head, just to tryto give you an answer to what he might be thinking.

If you're thinking this needs to be a research project, you might as well do the research yourself, since someone has to do it and you're the one who wants an answer.
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:01 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In that case, I think the only person who can meaningfully answer your question is Paul Melanson. I'm not going to waste any time studying his body of work and trying to get inside his head, just to tryto give you an answer to what he might be thinking.

If you're thinking this needs to be a research project, you might as well do the research yourself, since someone has to do it and you're the one who wants an answer.
As that is what I was asking, an opinion on what he may believe he was losing, I don't understand what the purpose of your posting was. But thank you anyway.
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:05 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It depends on the specific circumstances, but one thing they lose is the opportunity to not participate in something they don't want to participate in.

If they're required to bake the cake anyway, they also lose the right to decide for themselves whether to bake the cake.

Do you disagree with/not understand either of these propositions?
If I did not like black people and white people marrying, and I refused to bake a cake for a couple like that, would you still support my right to not participate in something I don't believe in?

What if as an atheist I refused to bake a cake for a Christian? As someone with a college degree I refused to bake for someone without higher education?

Couldn't this justify someone refusing to serve me because I'm disabled and they just don't like cripples?

Yes, ad ridiculum. But where is the line? If the only thing being lost is your freedom to choose whom you sell your product to, then can't that be used to justify racism, sexism, xenophobia...etc...? It could be used as the justification to any discrimination.

What I'm asking is, why is religiously based discrimination okay and other types of discrimination not okay?
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:39 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
If I did not like black people and white people marrying, and I refused to bake a cake for a couple like that, would you still support my right to not participate in something I don't believe in?

What if as an atheist I refused to bake a cake for a Christian? As someone with a college degree I refused to bake for someone without higher education?

Couldn't this justify someone refusing to serve me because I'm disabled and they just don't like cripples?

Yes, ad ridiculum. But where is the line? If the only thing being lost is your freedom to choose whom you sell your product to, then can't that be used to justify racism, sexism, xenophobia...etc...? It could be used as the justification to any discrimination.

What I'm asking is, why is religiously based discrimination okay and other types of discrimination not okay?
These are all important questions that we should be asking ourselves and each other, as part of an ongoing debate about what kind of society we want to share. But they are not quite what you were asking.

Before we start debating the merit of various trade-offs, I want to make sure we at least have basic agreement on the point that something is indeed lost when we ask someone to act against their moral code.

I mean, I don't feel like I can have a productive conversation with you about whether that loss is worth the corresponding gain to society, if you're not yet clear that there's any loss in the first place.

If your "what is lost?" was actually intended to mean "is the loss worth it?", then you may need to think your entire communication strategy before proceeding.
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:08 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
As that is what I was asking, an opinion on what he may believe he was losing, I don't understand what the purpose of your posting was. But thank you anyway.
The purpose of my posting was to advocate for the idea that nobody here is in a position to have an informed opinion about what he may believe he was losing.
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:26 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
As that is what I was asking, an opinion on what he may believe he was losing,
His immortal soul.
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:47 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
His immortal soul.
More generally, probably a lot of similar stuff to what Magrat would believe she was losing, if she were to accept money to do something she believed was morally or ethically wrong.
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:59 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
If you look for bias, you shall find it.

Can you explain to me how baking a cake for someone infringes on your rights? Does God dock you a Good Boy Point? It makes legitimately zero sense to me... As an atheist, I would happily take money from a christian couple that was getting married. Baking a cake for which you are paid does not endorse anything or support anything. If anything, refusing to provide services for a large part of the population will just ruin your business.

Please, can you explain how it infringes on your rights to bake a cake? what exactly are you losing by making money from a customer?

I can even kinda see if it required participation in the actual wedding but...baking a cake?? If I am quite honest it just makes the bakery sound dead ass petty.
As a rule, folks have the right not to do things they do not want to. Compelling someone to sell a cake they don't want to sell in order to sell cakes at all, well that infringes on their rights. Sure, it makes the baker seem a bit petty but they have the right to do that as well. Its hard to come up with a parallel that would apply to a liberal atheist baker on account of there always being special ways to plead the case. You could try saying, would you want to bake a NAZI wedding cake and should you be forced to in order to bake at all? Maybe, should you be compelled to bake a cake that had a specifically anti-gay marriage message for a fundies wedding?

All of that is a digression. As I noted, the conservative mind set is, "change is suspect" therefore I will come up with some justification for not changing. There is strong evidence that the default for decision making is to make a decision for reasons we don't really understand and then look for justification after the fact. This is true of just about everyone; conservative, liberal or what ever other sort of mindset you can think of.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:03 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
As a rule, folks have the right not to do things they do not want to. Compelling someone to sell a cake they don't want to sell in order to sell cakes at all, well that infringes on their rights. Sure, it makes the baker seem a bit petty but they have the right to do that as well. Its hard to come up with a parallel that would apply to a liberal atheist baker on account of there always being special ways to plead the case. You could try saying, would you want to bake a NAZI wedding cake and should you be forced to in order to bake at all? Maybe, should you be compelled to bake a cake that had a specifically anti-gay marriage message for a fundies wedding?
Yep it is as bad as having to have blacks in your hotel, when you know you are going to have to burn all the sheets to get the stink out. Yet the government says you have to to have a hotel at all. That is totally outrageous to all right thinking conservatives.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:47 PM   #109
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If we equate racism with LGBTQ-phobia, and it seems many of us are willing to do so, then is what is lost our control over our own hate? Idk, im throwing out ideas. Again, I'm not arguing whether someone should be forced to do anything or etc. Im asking for opinions on what is actually/factually happening.

Yes, I would bake a cake for nazis. of course i would. being hateful to hateful people just makes more hate. I would not participate in a nazi cross burning or whatever nazis do, but I would participate in a nazi wedding as a wedding organizer or other paid position. Because selling a service to someone doesn't endorse anything other than my desire to run a business.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:48 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
More generally, probably a lot of similar stuff to what Magrat would believe she was losing, if she were to accept money to do something she believed was morally or ethically wrong.
Baking a cake is never ethically or morally wrong.

eta adding *almost* before never because I know this forum and SOMEONE will come up with a scenario in which cake is wrong!!
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Baking a cake is never ethically or morally wrong.

eta adding *almost* before never because I know this forum and SOMEONE will come up with a scenario in which cake is wrong!!
It depends on what's in the cake.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:54 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It depends on what's in the cake.
Soylent green!

Knew I could count on you, TM
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Soylent green!

Knew I could count on you, TM
I can think of hundreds of things worse than edible protein to put into a cake.

ETA that's the third time I've said that this week!
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Old 29th January 2019, 03:04 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can think of hundreds of things worse than edible protein to put into a cake.

ETA that's the third time I've said that this week!
You must live an interesting life. The only phrase I've said three times this week is: the actual **** you got in your mouth this time?! (to the dog)
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:08 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
As a rule, folks have the right not to do things they do not want to. Compelling someone to sell a cake they don't want to sell in order to sell cakes at all, well that infringes on their rights. Sure, it makes the baker seem a bit petty but they have the right to do that as well. Its hard to come up with a parallel that would apply to a liberal atheist baker on account of there always being special ways to plead the case. You could try saying, would you want to bake a NAZI wedding cake and should you be forced to in order to bake at all? Maybe, should you be compelled to bake a cake that had a specifically anti-gay marriage message for a fundies wedding?
Let me put this in a different context. Suppose you are selling something. You agree to sell it for a certain price but then have second thoughts and want backsies.
The other party does not have to agree and can legally force you to deliver.

Of course, that doesn't infringe on your rights. You bartered your rights away and doing that - contracting - is a right, too.

Now suppose you want to sell something and shout to a group: "I'm selling this for X dollars!" Someone shouts back: "Accepted."
But when that guy steps out of the group you realize that it's a guy you hate. You want backsies. The question now is whether you bound yourself when you shouted the offer or not.
In reality, either may be true depending on various details. It's a technical matter. No one would seriously argue that one possible solution infringes on anyone's rights.

So let's look at the baker. If he is forced to make the cake, then that means that he bound himself by offering his service to the public. If that were the legal status quo, it would not seem like an obvious infringement on anyone's rights.


But let's try yet another way of looking at it. Suppose the baker does not own his bakery but is employed by a chain. That guy is going to get in trouble if he refuses paying customers. Does that infringe on his rights?

Actually, I do see the point here. Being self-employed is nice. It's nice being your own boss. It's freedom, right?
So maybe we really should do something about this. Maybe change the tax code to make big chains like Starbucks or Pizza Hut impossible in favor of independent, single establishments? Whatever the case, not being able to refuse a customer is certainly a tiny thing in comparison.


What if nazi wanted a cake? Let's up it a notch. A nazi pedophile who raped the baker and his kids comes in a and wants a cake. Can the baker's employer force him to serve that customer?

IDK but there are certainly things that an employee can't be made to do. There are situations where you could get out of a contract based on exceptional hardship. I think here we are close to the issue. Are gay weddings so terrible that a person should not have to acknowledge their existence?
That's a question of societal values; not of rights.

I can think of a rights issue in regards to this. Suppose it's the only bakery in town. Getting a cake from out of town would cost extra. In that case the baker has a position of economic power and can effectively levy a fine on gay wedding cakes.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:20 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
If we equate racism with LGBTQ-phobia, and it seems many of us are willing to do so, then is what is lost our control over our own hate? Idk, im throwing out ideas. Again, I'm not arguing whether someone should be forced to do anything or etc. Im asking for opinions on what is actually/factually happening.
To get back to what I said earlier. I think it's a heritage of the anti-civil rights movement.
Southern whites certainly lost something as a result of civil rights. During seggregation whites got preferential treatment. They got the good seats on the bus, etc...
I think that's where the rhetoric of losing something comes from.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:35 PM   #117
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My Right Wing friend isn't lamenting new rights for others imposing on his own, but "More choices individuals will be burdened with as they grow up."
He wants to see this thing called "Rights" minimized to keep life simple as it was in his 50's childhood. Rights bring complications, he thinks. He says Whites (including himself) are "tired of having to bend backward for Blacks."
He has stated that he doesn't believe in Equality because the "inferior races" can't function equally. His future utopia is one in which the Blacks, Browns, and others have their own planets, while his is all white as his hometown nearly was.

He didn't vote for Trump, but he applauds every bigoted thing Trump and his Party does.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:45 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
To get back to what I said earlier. I think it's a heritage of the anti-civil rights movement.
Southern whites certainly lost something as a result of civil rights. During seggregation whites got preferential treatment. They got the good seats on the bus, etc...
I think that's where the rhetoric of losing something comes from.
Now that does make sense. Along with the zero sum mentality that was mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
My Right Wing friend isn't lamenting new rights for others imposing on his own, but "More choices individuals will be burdened with as they grow up."
He wants to see this thing called "Rights" minimized to keep life simple as it was in his 50's childhood. Rights bring complications, he thinks. He says Whites (including himself) are "tired of having to bend backward for Blacks."
He has stated that he doesn't believe in Equality because the "inferior races" can't function equally. His future utopia is one in which the Blacks, Browns, and others have their own planets, while his is all white as his hometown nearly was.

He didn't vote for Trump, but he applauds every bigoted thing Trump and his Party does.
You're friends with my dad?! No wait, my dad did vote for the Oompa Loompa.

Maybe because I grew up in the 80s, maybe because were I am from is 99% white (because nobody who had another option would move here), maybe because I have ways spend most of my time reading and not watching the news etc... etc... I really cannot understand that. I mean...well, I guess I probably don't have to explain it. The gap between the boomers and their children is a very, very large one. (although my husband is technically a boomer, he doesn't have that racist stereotype mentality that my parents have)
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Old 29th January 2019, 05:02 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think that for conservatives, the thing they think they're being deprived of is the past. They just want things to go back to the way they were. Heck, I'm 48 and there are times when I would kill to spend a week being 10 again.

The problem with nostalgia is that it's usually wrong. Things were never the way they're remembered. And even back then (whener "then" was), people bemoaned the fact that things weren't the same as they were before.

Conservatism, to me, seems like a very sad, very lonely way to live. The predominant feeling is one of loss (or fear of loss) all the time.

But, then, I'm a progressive, so I really don't know what they're thinking.
Yes. I have a friend who looks back to his Milford, MA childhood in which there was only one color, one religion, one ethnicity. It was a golden time during which you didn't have to explain or question anything.

When he was younger he did break out of the bubble a bit. His second marriage was to a Japanese woman. However he didn't have the capacity or energy to work through cultural differences, so the marriage went south.

He laments that the Culture War will be lost, His consolation is that at his age, he won't be around to see the nation overrun by Browns and Muslims.
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Old 29th January 2019, 05:05 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
The gap between the boomers and their children is a very, very large one. (although my husband is technically a boomer, he doesn't have that racist stereotype mentality that my parents have)

Baby Boomers are more frequently known as the children of the civil rights movement. That's way too broad a brush.
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