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Old 31st January 2019, 10:29 AM   #161
xjx388
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Oh please. Everything I have said about conservatives in this country come from my own direct experiences. I was raised in a staunchly conservative, religious-right family, attending hardline-religious-right churches up until I was in my early '30s. These are not stereotypes, these are actual personal observations of people I grew up with and around, viewed through the lens of someone who bought into it up until I started attending college and was more widely exposed to other worldviews.



It is very, very difficult to exaggerate the reactionary-conservative mindset. As individuals they can certainly vary, but as a group (bringing in-group/out-group into play) they are very consistent, and tend strongly toward extremism.



All you have to do is go listen to their pundits like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Fallwell, Franklin Graham, and so on. These are not the nutcase fringe, these are mainstream figures with literally millions of followers. Followers who fully believe that natural disasters are sent by G-D to punish the US for legalizing gay marriage, and punish other nations for following "false idols". People who believe that Hillary Clinton was involved in a child sex ring run out of a DC pizza shop. People who literally see Americans, particularly white Americans as "G-D's Chosen People". People who go into outrage about the "War on Christmas". People who fear that there are hordes of atheists and Muslims and hippie new agers who are literally trying to destroy them, and they only survive and hold on to power because it is "G-D's will". And with Trump, they've effectively resurrected the "divine right of kings" for the modern age.


Do you think your caricature describes most people with a “conservative mindset?”


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Old 31st January 2019, 10:32 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Bollocks.
Charming.

Quote:
Liberal means different things in the US and in the UK (and in other countries) for historical reasons. Do not confuse the different meanings.
My point, precisely. Thanks for emphasising it.
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:02 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Taking away the perks and advantages of "the landed gentry" in the lest seems to them a persecution. A Class War!

I suppose the same is the mindset of most Evangelical Christians find their religion isn't allowed to dominate in a secular society.
Well, christianity in various forms has been shaped by being a state religion for over 1500 years. That may explain some of it.

But consider this: We regulate the release of toxic chemicals. If there is grounds to believe that a substance causes harmful effects it is regulated. If certain limits are willfully exceeded that may be grounds for criminal prosecution. That's not controversial, especially not among the left.

What if someone were to come to believe that gayness causes hurricanes... (IIRC Pat Robertson said that?)

Perhaps the difference is not so much in personality but more in what one considersa trustworthy source. In practical terms that's not even as grand as religion vs science. In practice it's: A TV preacher referencing the bible or a TV news anchor referencing a scientific study.


Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
ETA: most likely underlying that is the basic human ‘change bad’ butting up against ‘change ok’ as y’all have been discussing. They think society really needs that gatekeeping or it’ll all just go to hell. It’s one thing to ignore what Those Guys Are Doing Over There, the problem is too big for you to tackle alone, but actually raising your hand to participate with them like normal welcome members of society? Well that would make you complicit in the ruining of society. Or just the offending of God or what have you.
Who's they? From context it's religious conservatives.
I'm not one but I do think that society needs gatekeeping. Democracy, rule of law, human rights... These things need to secured.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Old 31st January 2019, 01:17 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Well, christianity in various forms has been shaped by being a state religion for over 1500 years. That may explain some of it.

But consider this: We regulate the release of toxic chemicals. If there is grounds to believe that a substance causes harmful effects it is regulated. If certain limits are willfully exceeded that may be grounds for criminal prosecution. That's not controversial, especially not among the left.

What if someone were to come to believe that gayness causes hurricanes... (IIRC Pat Robertson said that?)

Perhaps the difference is not so much in personality but more in what one considersa trustworthy source. In practical terms that's not even as grand as religion vs science. In practice it's: A TV preacher referencing the bible or a TV news anchor referencing a scientific study.
Exactly Christianity told the inquisition they needed to find and expunge the Jews and they did so. You might disagree with that but they were doing what they viewed as right. So it was a simple difference of opinion.

Really blacks, jews, gays or women it is all the same and all should be dictated by religion.
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Old 31st January 2019, 04:21 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
One thing I've noticed about the conservative mindset is just how fragile it is, and how prone to taking offense at anything that challenges its worldview in the slightest.
Have you noticed similar traits of those with the mindset more towards the other end of the spectrum?
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Old 31st January 2019, 04:29 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Have you noticed similar traits of those with the mindset more towards the other end of the spectrum?
Personally I am aware of a stereotype of liberals who are offended at everything but I do not know any liberals who are actually like that. I do know conservatives that are highly sensitive and defensive. Not a representative sample.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:49 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Have you noticed similar traits of those with the mindset more towards the other end of the spectrum?

Only the mythical ones that conservatives like complaining about at every possible opportunity. The very existence of liberals seems to be painful to conservatives, given how often they whinge on about them.

In the US, since at least Nixon, conservative politicians and religious figures in this country have made a profession of being offended by everything that isn't straight, white, cisgendered, and male. They make up elaborate conspiracy theories about how homosexuals are raping and recruiting children, how hispanic people are stealing their jobs, how black people are scamming welfare benefits, how transpeople are going into bathrooms to attack their women, how Jews and foreigners are destroying our economy, how Muslims are trying to impose sharia law on good Christians, how the younger generation's music is destroying the moral fabric of society, how young people using cannabis are destroying the moral fabric of society, how everything bad that happens in the country that cannot be directly blamed on one of these groups is G-D's punishment for too much tolerance of said groups.

They're offended by people saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas" and putting up non-religious holiday displays. They're offended by disabled people wanting reasonable accommodations at work and getting special parking spaces. They're offended by scientists trying to convince them of the reality of climate change, and the need to take action to prevent wholesale destruction of the environment. They're offended by gays and lesbians getting married. They're offended by transpeople wanting to be recognized as being their identified gender. They're offended by the idea of giving universal healthcare to poor people. They're offended by the idea of giving free education to poor people. They're offended that they can no longer discriminate against people with impunity under the guise of "religious freedom". They're offended at the idea of waiting periods and universal standardized background checks for purchasing firearms. They're offended by the idea of being taxed to pay for government services (even the ones they depend on). They're offended by the very existence of atheists.

When I was younger, they were offended by pornography, by music lyrics, by women's rights, by interracial marriage. They were offended by laws and court rulings that said they could not mandate Christian prayer in public schools, and that children could not be compelled to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

They're offended that they're not allowed to use racial slurs, openly lionize mass murderers, and celebrate brutally repressive and treasonous insurgents without being called out for bigotry and hate.

There are plenty of examples of most of those posted by people on this very board. Look at any of the old gay marriage threads, any of the current transgender threads, the free education threads, the universal healthcare threads, and so on.

Sure, there are a few fringe whackadoodles on the far left who are offended by everything, but they're not the mainstream of liberalism/progressivism the way that the professionally offended conservatives are the mainstream of conservatism.
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Last edited by luchog; 31st January 2019 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:08 PM   #168
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Don't forget being offended because some people say Happy Holidays. Its a war on christmas!!!!!!!! Sometimes it seems like being considerate is offensive to some people.
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Old 31st January 2019, 06:56 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Only the mythical ones that conservatives like complaining about at every possible opportunity. The very existence of liberals seems to be painful to conservatives, given how often they whinge on about them.

In the US, since at least Nixon, conservative politicians and religious figures in this country have made a profession of being offended by everything that isn't straight, white, cisgendered, and male. They make up elaborate conspiracy theories about how homosexuals are raping and recruiting children, how hispanic people are stealing their jobs, how black people are scamming welfare benefits, how transpeople are going into bathrooms to attack their women, how Jews and foreigners are destroying our economy, how Muslims are trying to impose sharia law on good Christians, how the younger generation's music is destroying the moral fabric of society, how young people using cannabis are destroying the moral fabric of society, how everything bad that happens in the country that cannot be directly blamed on one of these groups is G-D's punishment for too much tolerance of said groups.

They're offended by people saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas" and putting up non-religious holiday displays. They're offended by disabled people wanting reasonable accommodations at work and getting special parking spaces. They're offended by scientists trying to convince them of the reality of climate change, and the need to take action to prevent wholesale destruction of the environment. They're offended by gays and lesbians getting married. They're offended by transpeople wanting to be recognized as being their identified gender. They're offended by the idea of giving universal healthcare to poor people. They're offended by the idea of giving free education to poor people. They're offended that they can no longer discriminate against people with impunity under the guise of "religious freedom". They're offended at the idea of waiting periods and universal standardized background checks for purchasing firearms. They're offended by the idea of being taxed to pay for government services (even the ones they depend on). They're offended by the very existence of atheists.

When I was younger, they were offended by pornography, by music lyrics, by women's rights, by interracial marriage. They were offended by laws and court rulings that said they could not mandate Christian prayer in public schools, and that children could not be compelled to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

They're offended that they're not allowed to use racial slurs, openly lionize mass murderers, and celebrate brutally repressive and treasonous insurgents without being called out for bigotry and hate.

There are plenty of examples of most of those posted by people on this very board. Look at any of the old gay marriage threads, any of the current transgender threads, the free education threads, the universal healthcare threads, and so on.

Sure, there are a few fringe whackadoodles on the far left who are offended by everything, but they're not the mainstream of liberalism/progressivism the way that the professionally offended conservatives are the mainstream of conservatism.
Perfect. Just perfect.
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Old 31st January 2019, 08:10 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Well, christianity in various forms has been shaped by being a state religion for over 1500 years. That may explain some of it.

But consider this: We regulate the release of toxic chemicals. If there is grounds to believe that a substance causes harmful effects it is regulated. If certain limits are willfully exceeded that may be grounds for criminal prosecution. That's not controversial, especially not among the left.

What if someone were to come to believe that gayness causes hurricanes... (IIRC Pat Robertson said that?)

Perhaps the difference is not so much in personality but more in what one considersa trustworthy source. In practical terms that's not even as grand as religion vs science. In practice it's: A TV preacher referencing the bible or a TV news anchor referencing a scientific study.
I haven't responded to this because I don't get what you are saying. Religions should be regulated? Religions should not be regulated? Should the law mandate that the child of a Jehovah's Witness must receive a blood transfusion if necessary in spite of the parents religious beliefs and objections? should we let conservative Christians continue dominance, because whatever secular objections we have are no more rational and factual than their beliefs? Sorry I just don't get the point.
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Old 31st January 2019, 08:16 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes and no. It seems to be a rejection that their birth gave them a leg up in the world. Kavanaugh really hits that well when he claims unlike minorities he got into Yale on just hard work. Of course he was also a legacy. And largely they don't see the hypocrisy there.
He had the advantages of being of the "Norm."
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Old 1st February 2019, 07:54 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
What if someone were to come to believe that gayness causes hurricanes... (IIRC Pat Robertson said that?)

Perhaps the difference is not so much in personality but more in what one considersa trustworthy source. In practical terms that's not even as grand as religion vs science. In practice it's: A TV preacher referencing the bible or a TV news anchor referencing a scientific study.

(...)

Who's they? From context it's religious conservatives.
I'm not one but I do think that society needs gatekeeping. Democracy, rule of law, human rights... These things need to secured.
All good points. I’m not opposed to gatekeeping where it’s appropriate, applied constructively, well thought out etc; so it’s down to a difference of opinion in a lot of cases and ways.

But with this stuff what I’ve seen is a real sort of disgust at the idea that people are forced to play nice with the hellbound abominations. Even people of the ‘gays are fine as long as they don’t act like it in public’ bent still absolutely bristle at the idea that the cake guys aren’t allowed to refuse them service.

The whole problem there is if I think antivax is a danger to society because it makes everybody get measles and the other guy thinks doing gender differently is a danger to society because it makes everybody feel skeevy and confused and threatens all kinds of immortal souls, me and that guy aren’t gonna see eye to eye, like, ever.

The differences between the groups are still stark when the situations are a little more analogous.
“I don’t want to serve you because you’re gay, and I feel being gay is harmful to people and their acceptance is bad for the country in general and I don’t want to feel like I’m endorsing that”
“I don’t want to serve you because you’re a prominent politician whose views I feel are harmful to people and bad for the country in general and I don’t want to feel like I’m endorsing that”

Apart from the difference between ‘being gay’ and ‘having a political affiliation,’ the person disagreeing with the politics could go on all day about specific things that bother them; the person disagreeing with being gay has, what, it’s icky and not how you’re supposed to do things and God agrees with me, and people will get fake married for tax reasons?

I’ve seen a few people gender-bothering with statistics about high suicide rates, which boggles me so hard because it’s the same thing as ‘we can’t have gays in the military because they’re a blackmail risk.’ The blackmail risk is BECAUSE you said they can’t let people find out they’re gay! The high suicide rate is BECAUSE you’re trying to alienate them from society!

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Old 1st February 2019, 10:08 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
...hellbound abominations...
Hey! That's not nice!
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:45 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I haven't responded to this because I don't get what you are saying. Religions should be regulated? Religions should not be regulated? Should the law mandate that the child of a Jehovah's Witness must receive a blood transfusion if necessary in spite of the parents religious beliefs and objections? should we let conservative Christians continue dominance, because whatever secular objections we have are no more rational and factual than their beliefs? Sorry I just don't get the point.
I tried to come up with circumstances which would make me exhibit homophobic behavior.

There are a number of cognitive biases related to how we draw inference about other people. Our biases are often self-serving.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_bias

We tend to assume that other people's behavior reflects an underlying disposition rather than circumstance. We prefer to explain our own behavior by circumstance. These tendencies can manifest in very dysfunctional ways.

Consider US mass incarceration. The land of the free has a much higher proportion of its citizens in jail than any other country.
If you jump to the conclusion that people who commit crimes do so because they are simply criminal then mass incarceration will be the only logical solution.
Other countries manage to have lower crime rates AND lower incarceration rates.
That there's a racism connection is pretty obvious but I also think it's complicated. A culturally promoted tendency to write people off as just being a certain way may persist even in people who do not believe in color-coded dispositions.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 08:21 AM   #175
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Through my research for my book I have found a lot of scientific evidence that shows both homosexuality and transgender are actually provable in the brain structures. For instance, the amygdala of men and women are different sizes. Like, an expert could measure the amygdala in a brain and tell you if the individual is male or female.

A trans person's brain has the amygdala of the gender they identify as. As in, a man who identifies as a woman has an amygdala the size you would expect to be found in women.

There are other things as well, such as response to various hormones, etc...

So this alters my question. Now, if you know these behaviours have a physical, proven basis and are not just something somebody came up with, would you still support a business owner refusing to serve the individual?

To my mind, this is more like refusing someone based on a disability.

Also, could we support a religious basis for the refusal? As a disabled person, I would say no.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 08:49 AM   #176
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Here is one of the articles I mentioned.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 09:53 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
I tried to come up with circumstances which would make me exhibit homophobic behavior.

There are a number of cognitive biases related to how we draw inference about other people. Our biases are often self-serving.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_bias

We tend to assume that other people's behavior reflects an underlying disposition rather than circumstance. We prefer to explain our own behavior by circumstance. These tendencies can manifest in very dysfunctional ways.

Consider US mass incarceration. The land of the free has a much higher proportion of its citizens in jail than any other country.
If you jump to the conclusion that people who commit crimes do so because they are simply criminal then mass incarceration will be the only logical solution.
Other countries manage to have lower crime rates AND lower incarceration rates.
That there's a racism connection is pretty obvious but I also think it's complicated. A culturally promoted tendency to write people off as just being a certain way may persist even in people who do not believe in color-coded dispositions.
Thanks for the clarity. to all your post.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 06:52 PM   #178
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This thread was interesting in illustrating the way many people have a knee jerk response to certain triggers. "Conservative" ... the word alone, disregarding everything I said in the op... was such a trigger. I wonder what would have happened had I not used that word. Probably something similar. Wish I had a comparison from the pre-Trump era. Would provide an interesting view on the claims that El Cheeto has made us more divisive.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 07:10 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Through my research for my book I have found a lot of scientific evidence that shows both homosexuality and transgender are actually provable in the brain structures. For instance, the amygdala of men and women are different sizes. Like, an expert could measure the amygdala in a brain and tell you if the individual is male or female.

A trans person's brain has the amygdala of the gender they identify as. As in, a man who identifies as a woman has an amygdala the size you would expect to be found in women.

There are other things as well, such as response to various hormones, etc...

So this alters my question. Now, if you know these behaviours have a physical, proven basis and are not just something somebody came up with, would you still support a business owner refusing to serve the individual?

To my mind, this is more like refusing someone based on a disability.

Also, could we support a religious basis for the refusal? As a disabled person, I would say no.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3092984/
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Old 2nd February 2019, 07:13 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I have read that paper, although not exactly related to the study I mentioned, a tangentially related topic.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:05 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Perfect. Just perfect.
...so sayeth the choir. What you responded to is a load of horsecrap.

You gotta be kidding me! Liberals hate just as much, they just point their fingers at different targets. See! I can do it too!

It's interesting how bias works.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:58 PM   #182
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I am a little baffled by the long arguments here. Politics aside, I think that Americans, at least, have some understanding of what social conservatism is, and that is, I think, what the thread was intended to be about. I think Magrat even made that point when she described herself as both politicaly and socially liberal, which would be nonsensical if the two were the same.

Mixing social with political conservatism loses that point, mischaracterizing not only political conservatives who are socially tolerant, but followers of religions noted for social conservatism at least in some areas (E.G. "Liberation theology,") who espouse revolution and reform. Though it doesn't take a lot of looking around to realize that here, at least, the two often go together, they do not have to.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:36 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I am a little baffled by the long arguments here. Politics aside, I think that Americans, at least, have some understanding of what social conservatism is, and that is, I think, what the thread was intended to be about. I think Magrat even made that point when she described herself as both politicaly and socially liberal, which would be nonsensical if the two were the same.

Mixing social with political conservatism loses that point, mischaracterizing not only political conservatives who are socially tolerant, but followers of religions noted for social conservatism at least in some areas (E.G. "Liberation theology,") who espouse revolution and reform. Though it doesn't take a lot of looking around to realize that here, at least, the two often go together, they do not have to.
Thank you. I am under the impression the long political arguments were for one of two reasons: 1) the individual didn't read the OP and responded solely to the thread title (which at least one poster admitted they had done) or 2) to prevent any meaningful dialog from taking place. The whys and wherefores of #2 remain to be examined.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:37 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
...so sayeth the choir. What you responded to is a load of horsecrap.

You gotta be kidding me! Liberals hate just as much, they just point their fingers at different targets. See! I can do it too!

It's interesting how bias works.
Liberals hate just as much. So conservatives "hate"? I am a liberal socially and politically, and the only individual I hate is my ex husband's mother. Whom do you hate?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:40 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I am a little baffled by the long arguments here. Politics aside, I think that Americans, at least, have some understanding of what social conservatism is, and that is, I think, what the thread was intended to be about. I think Magrat even made that point when she described herself as both politicaly and socially liberal, which would be nonsensical if the two were the same.

Mixing social with political conservatism loses that point, mischaracterizing not only political conservatives who are socially tolerant, but followers of religions noted for social conservatism at least in some areas (E.G. "Liberation theology,") who espouse revolution and reform. Though it doesn't take a lot of looking around to realize that here, at least, the two often go together, they do not have to.
What is the difference between social conservatism and political conservatism to you?
By "political conservatism" do you mean "economic conservatism"?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 12:28 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What is the difference between social conservatism and political conservatism to you?
By "political conservatism" do you mean "economic conservatism"?
The UK Tory party has both socially liberal and socially conservative MPs.

I have absolutely no doubt that Michael Gove, for example, was sincere in voting in favour of gay marriage.

Christopher Chope, is, however illiberal in all ways.


Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are politically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be politically left wing, and socially liberal.

Note that I am using "left-wing" as opposed to "liberal" - this is because in the UK, the Liberal party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats is socially liberal, but with tensions between the economic policies with some being happy with many Conservative policies, whilst others were to the left of New Labour.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 12:55 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The UK Tory party has both socially liberal and socially conservative MPs.

I have absolutely no doubt that Michael Gove, for example, was sincere in voting in favour of gay marriage.

Christopher Chope, is, however illiberal in all ways.


Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are politically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be politically left wing, and socially liberal.

Note that I am using "left-wing" as opposed to "liberal" - this is because in the UK, the Liberal party, and its successor the Liberal Democrats is socially liberal, but with tensions between the economic policies with some being happy with many Conservative policies, whilst others were to the left of New Labour.
Do you call people who are conservatives on strictly economic issues "politically conservative"?

In the US you often hear the phrase "socially liberal, economically/"fiscal" conservative" to describe both rightwing "libertarians" as well as "centrist" democrats.

Nobody uses the phrase "politically ____" to describe themselves in any way. It sounds like you in the UK use the word "politically" to mean "economically"?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 01:29 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you call people who are conservatives on strictly economic issues "politically conservative"?

In the US you often hear the phrase "socially liberal, economically/"fiscal" conservative" to describe both rightwing "libertarians" as well as "centrist" democrats.

Nobody uses the phrase "politically ____" to describe themselves in any way. It sounds like you in the UK use the word "politically" to mean "economically"?
That would be economically conservative. Political and social may overlap but they aren't the same thing.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 01:56 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
That would be economically conservative. Political and social may overlap but they aren't the same thing.
What does "political" mean?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 02:02 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What does "political" mean?
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-diff...l-conservative that might help. Essentially they overlap but not entirely.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:55 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-diff...l-conservative that might help. Essentially they overlap but not entirely.
That's for the US, and it's saying they're basically identical, except the explicitly self-identifying "social conservatives" feel really strongly about their conservative stances on social issues in particular, like banning abortion and the importance of instituting theocracy, etc.

I'm still getting the sense that there's a slightly different use of the word "political" in the UK.

ETA:
This sentence from jimbob above:

Quote:
Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are politically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be politically left wing, and socially liberal.
Could be "Americanized" to say with greater clarity in the US:

Quote:
Likewise, there are many traditional Labour areas where the plurality of voters are economically left wing, but socially conservative. Their MPs tend to be economically left wing, and socially liberal.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 08:13 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's for the US, and it's saying they're basically identical, except the explicitly self-identifying "social conservatives" feel really strongly about their conservative stances on social issues in particular, like banning abortion and the importance of instituting theocracy, etc.

I'm still getting the sense that there's a slightly different use of the word "political" in the UK.

ETA:
This sentence from jimbob above:



Could be "Americanized" to say with greater clarity in the US:
I dont know enough about British politics to give you an answer, sorry.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:52 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
...so sayeth the choir. What you responded to is a load of horsecrap.

You gotta be kidding me! Liberals hate just as much, they just point their fingers at different targets. See! I can do it too!

Insults are the resort of someone who cannot address the actual topic at hand, or know that they are wrong but cannot acknowledge that fact publicly.

Where's your supporting evidence? There are decades of legislation and activist movements in this country to support mine. The PRMC, the Moral Majority, Jim Crow laws, anti-miscegenation laws, anti-sodomy laws, bathroom bills, vagrancy laws, the War on Drugs, sundown laws, school prayer protests, violent anti-desegregation protests, anti-bussing protests, blue laws, charter school laws, neighborhood covenants, immigration laws that target specific religions and ethnic groups, enacting monuments to the Confederacy and its supporters, the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment, protests against Planned Parenthood, "religious freedom" legislation enabling wholesale discrimination against women and LGBTQs, the list goes on and on.

Conservative hate is directed against anyone different from themselves.

Liberal hate is directed against conservative policies and worldviews that marginalize and exclude people.

These are not even remotely equivalent. Claiming they are is not only ignorant, it's profoundly disingenuous, and a common tactic of conservatives to deflect valid criticism and demonize their opponents, thereby avoiding having to change.

Quote:
It's interesting how bias works.

Not really, just depressing.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:00 AM   #194
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For socially liberal but politically conservative what that means is someone who is fine with gay people existing, but still wants the poor to die from easily treatable diseases.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:37 AM   #195
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Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.
Of course there are, just like there are a lot of racist homosexuals. Left on one issue doesn't mean left on all. And more and more white cis homosexual men are voting republican. Racism and low tax high debt economics are trumping their own civil rights.

But on the issue of homosexuals existing it is fairly clear where the left to right falls on that issue, regardless of how someones individual politics fall on other issues.
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Old 4th February 2019, 11:57 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.

Something I've learned from the thread so far, some people have not realized that the thread is about conservative vs. liberal mindsets, and only not about the right-vs-left political divide. I've also learned that some people are not good at reading, miss every instance where subtleties are discussed, and use their ignorance as justification to try and score cheap Internet gotchas.

Not particularly interesting or funny, just sad.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:02 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Something I've learned from the thread so far, some people have not realized that the thread is about conservative vs. liberal mindsets, and only not about the right-vs-left political divide. I've also learned that some people are not good at reading, miss every instance where subtleties are discussed, and use their ignorance as justification to try and score cheap Internet gotchas.

Not particularly interesting or funny, just sad.
So there are no homophobes with a liberal mindset?

If you don't like people pointing out how stupidly broad the topic is, don't use such a broad brush to paint half your country.

Edit: and the last thing I would call this thread is subtle
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:03 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
Personally I am aware of a stereotype of liberals who are offended at everything but I do not know any liberals who are actually like that. I do know conservatives that are highly sensitive and defensive. Not a representative sample.
I know of both.

Anecdote that only shows on side of that coin does indeed exist. My Grand Mother in Law. Really seems to take disagreement on poltics as a personal attack, and she is quite liberal. The last time my wife talked politics with her was 2 or 3 years ago. Basically just pointed out that JFK wasn't infallible and had escalated use involvement in Viet Nam. The G-I-L was personally offended by the suggestion, about 50 year old politics even. Of course she is a very liberal Irish Catholic.

Again, that says nothing about who is more at fault for that sort of behavior but folks of every stripe to exhibit it.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:35 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Something I have learnt from this thread so far

A loft of the left seem to think there are no close minded, homophobic religious types who are left in the US.

Interesting, and funny and the same time.
That took me a moment to parse, as it reads that there are none remaining, where I presume you mean none on the left. I think the tendency is for social, political and economic conservatism to go hand in hand, but indeed, it is not necessary, and there will always be at least a few who manage to reconcile things in a way that confounds some others.
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