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Old 26th January 2019, 11:27 PM   #1
Graham2001
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The explosive racial question Osaka asked Japan

Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.



Quote:
Naomi Osaka was not just the first Japanese player to win the US Open and the Australian Open, and in doing to the first to become world No.1.

She was also the first of Haitian descent.

Osaka, 21, is proudly biracial but having chosen to represent Japan, she flies the flag of a nation historically dedicated to racial purity.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
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Old 26th January 2019, 11:30 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
I think if you have meet people who think this, you should probably just google History of the relationship between Japan and China for them
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Old 27th January 2019, 01:43 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
Sorry, what is the question?

Also, racism is held by people with ďthe white geneĒ?

If you mean, are some Japanese racist, then yes. Yes, they are. I think you find racists in pretty much any culture and any country. I think that racism does have some evolutionary basis, but the basis is essentially a predisposition to sort people into in groups and out groups.
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Old 27th January 2019, 02:03 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
People are saying, are they?

You want to discuss the obvious and well-known racism, xenophobia, and jingoistic nationalism in Asia? Or you want this as a gotcha to your imaginary friends?

Angrysoba's already opined on the topic of Japan. I can cover a whole other large part of Asia. Chinese are notoriously racist. The Thais, ditto. Singapore and Malaysia split apart from the Malay Federation because of race. Indonesia seems to rotate which minority they're going to pick on and Myanmar is the current global poster boy for genocide.

So what are those some people saying? Who are they and where do they get their information other than Mama's Basement Theory of Internet Sociology Volume I?
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Old 27th January 2019, 02:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sorry, what is the question?

Also, racism is held by people with ďthe white geneĒ?

If you mean, are some Japanese racist, then yes. Yes, they are. I think you find racists in pretty much any culture and any country. I think that racism does have some evolutionary basis, but the basis is essentially a predisposition to sort people into in groups and out groups.
^^ This

I'm not the brainiest person in the world as you can probably tell by my pathetic attempts at posts, but think it is fundamentally an evolutionary human fear of those that are different, or outside the group/pack/tribe/...

A broad human thing, no matter what the colour

Probably completely wrong though.
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Old 27th January 2019, 02:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
Have you asked these people?
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Old 27th January 2019, 03:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP

The people who say racism is inherent to whites, or whatever are missing their target. They are often the victims of racism and I get the point they're trying to make, and they should restrict that point to their experiences in the U.S. or whatever western country, but it may come across really unrefined and rough around the edges.

Of course racism isn't restricted to whites.
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:13 AM   #8
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Only the far left believe that whites and whites alone are racist. White people are, IMO, the least racist group on the planet, by a considerable margin.
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:36 AM   #9
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Any documentation for those ideas?
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:48 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
Your point?
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Old 27th January 2019, 10:29 AM   #11
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This thread title keeps goofing me up. I clicked here the first time to find out what/why there was a racial problem between the City of Osaka and the rest of Japan. Now I've read the story, and know what it means, but, my poor little mouse powered brain continues to have issues everytime I see it. I wish it included her first name at least, and maybe something about tennis...
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:06 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene'
I've literally never heard this claim before.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
This thread title keeps goofing me up. I clicked here the first time to find out what/why there was a racial problem between the City of Osaka and the rest of Japan. Now I've read the story, and know what it means, but, my poor little mouse powered brain continues to have issues everytime I see it. I wish it included her first name at least, and maybe something about tennis...
I'm less worried about which cities are asking and more worried about the implication that some races might be explosive. I guess a DNA mutation can lead to heritable gelignite characteristics? Or are we talking nuclear fission-- did someone evolve a way to metabolize uranium and pass it down to their descendents? This could be a serious problem and we ought to develop genetic screening to make sure nobody ends up with an exploding baby. Well, more explosive than babies usually are, anyway. They all explode from both ends but it's usually not nuclear. Unless someone's fed them beans.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:46 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.
So you've encountered extraordinarily stupid leftists? Here's a suggestion: Don't try to follow their logic because that is not what guides them.
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Old 27th January 2019, 11:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Only the far left believe that whites and whites alone are racist. White people are, IMO, the least racist group on the planet, by a considerable margin.
Depends how you group the groups.

If you use American/Western form filler checkboxes to divide the world you're doing it wrong.

I would just observe racism by country or ethnic group.
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Old 27th January 2019, 12:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Only the far left believe that whites and whites alone are racist. White people are, IMO, the least racist group on the planet, by a considerable margin.
You believe that whether people are racist or not is determined by their race? And those in the "white race" (such as you and me) are among the "best" on the planet in at least this trait, by being the least racist?

Hmmm... Have you thought the implications of that through fully?

Last edited by Giordano; 27th January 2019 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Attempting to clarify my point
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Old 27th January 2019, 12:23 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Depends how you group the groups.

If you use American/Western form filler checkboxes to divide the world you're doing it wrong.

I would just observe racism by country or ethnic group.
OK, if you want to do it that way. You'll find that the least racist countries, as denoted by human rights metrics, tolerance and acceptance of different cultures, charitable giving, etc. are white majority. And I know, you're going to post something about Trump and his immigrant-hostile policies, but before you do I ask you to consider comparing the US with China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Egypt, Chad, Iran, Mexico. the list goes on. The only real turds in the cream are Russia and South Africa.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You believe that whether people are racist or not is determined by their race?
I'm more concerned with behaviour as opposed to genetics, which is not a significant influence in this area.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
YAnd those in the "white race" (such as you and me) are among the "best" on the planet in at least this trait, being the least racist?
Yes.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Hmmm... Have you thought that through fully?
Yes.
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Old 27th January 2019, 12:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
These unnamed "people" who you "have encountered" don't need to explain the citation because they started off identifying themselves as incredibly stupid when they referred to the "white" gene. My advice is to pay no attention to them because they have the IQ of a newt (and are unlikely to get any better).

IMO bothering to cite and refute such ignorant opinions is as silly as bothering to cite and refute the views of strawmen. In my experience both, thankfully, are rare.
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Old 27th January 2019, 12:35 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
OK, if you want to do it that way. You'll find that the least racist countries, as denoted by human rights metrics, tolerance and acceptance of different cultures, charitable giving, etc. are white majority. And I know, you're going to post something about Trump and his immigrant-hostile policies, but before you do I ask you to consider comparing the US with China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Egypt, Chad, Iran, Mexico. the list goes on. The only real turds in the cream are Russia and South Africa.



I'm more concerned with behaviour as opposed to genetics, which is not a significant influence in this area.



Yes.



Yes.
Okay, glad you thought it through! I don't share your view but I am particularly proud of my modesty instead!
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Old 27th January 2019, 03:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have you asked these people?
You should know that Graham2001 opens provocative threads and takes no further part in them.
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You should know that Graham2001 opens provocative threads and takes no further part in them.
TragicMonkey asks Japan an explosive question about the thread hit-and-run gene!
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene'
Ask them.

Imho literally nobody thinks such a patently ludicrous thing.
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You should know that Graham2001 opens provocative threads and takes no further part in them.
Then he's failed. This isn't provocative. It's just dumb.
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Old 27th January 2019, 04:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think if you have meet people who think this, you should probably just google History of the relationship between Japan and China for them
Or Japan and Korea....

Fact is, Imperial Japan from about 1930 on was just as bigoted and it's German Buddies during the same period.
Koreans were treated as second class citizens, and Japan's actions in China at times approached Nazi Levels of Atrocity. See The Rape of Nanking for details.
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Old 27th January 2019, 05:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.
Well, if such people exist I cannot speak for them because an opinion like that is not only stupid but an actual example of racism. Anyone who holds that sin is "inherent" in the genes of any "race" is a racist.

Quote:
As far as Naomi Osaka goes, she's great and most Japanese people are very proud of her. Inevitably there are probably a few haters on the internet but that is only to be expected in any country. I believe they are a small minority.

The following morning after she won pretty much every TV channel was covering it. All the sports newspapers had her all over the front page. As one would expect.
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Old 27th January 2019, 05:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think if you have meet people who think this, you should probably just google History of the relationship between Japan and China for them
Or between Japan and Korea.
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Old 27th January 2019, 06:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
OK, if you want to do it that way. You'll find that the least racist countries, as denoted by human rights metrics, tolerance and acceptance of different cultures, charitable giving, etc. are white majority. And I know, you're going to post something about Trump and his immigrant-hostile policies, but before you do I ask you to consider comparing the US with China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Egypt, Chad, Iran, Mexico. the list goes on. The only real turds in the cream are Russia and South Africa.



I'm more concerned with behaviour as opposed to genetics, which is not a significant influence in this area.



Yes.



Yes.
If youíre going to make a claim about who is the least racist and most open-minded then there are other candidate variables aside from melanin content in the skin to explain the discrepancy between a very non-racist society such as ... the UK when compared with a very hateful and bigoted society such as ... I dunno, I was thinking Pakistan, but I have never been there...

For the most part, I think that certain pre-requisites such as wealth and democratic traditions and philosophical contemplation are more likely to produce non-racist societies. The latter require the former. The closer you are to a ďstate of natureĒ in terms of available resources, wealth creation, superstition, zero-sum division of resources etc... the more likely you are to engage in racism all else being equal.

They seem to be necessary conditions, but not sufficient. There are also contingent historical facts and traditions that can lead to more or less racism.
Thereís also plenty of racism, by the way, in many parts of Eastern Europe - Hungary, Poland, Serbia (!), Croatia (!), Ukraine. And there are some pretty virulent strains of racism in France (Front Nationale anyone?) and Sweden (sterilization of impure ethnicities which ended like last Tuesday or something almost as eyebrow-raising!). Oh, and if we think of Germany as one of the bastions of enlightenment values and maybe the least anti-Semitic countries in the world (a big if), it isnít without a few blemishes along the way - more likely a result of some blemishes, no?

Yeah, Japan has racism. Who doesnít? But, Japanís racism is more of the bewilderment at foreigners variety. The Japanese, bless them, donít understand sophisticated speech codes around race or ethnicity. This kind of thing is not a part of the everyday curriculum, as far as I am aware. The Japanese donít know it is racist to say that Japanese people ought to be able to speak Japanese (Naomi Osakaís Japanese ability is lower than mine and thatís saying something!). They donít know it is racist to depict foreign people with very large noses and blond wigs, or to complain about the smell of foreign food, or to say that foreigners are okay but they wouldnít want one living next door because they donít know how to put the rubbish out. They donít know that it is racist to whitewash their own manga, and many were surprised to hear it was racist for Scarlett Johansson to play the lead in Ghost in the Shell or that it was racist for a Japanese comedian to portray Eddie Murphy in Beverley Hills Cop by blacking up (I am sure they were wondering, ďbut how else am I going to pull off this impression?Ē).

I can imagine that the brouhaha about the depiction of Naomi Osaka came from the feeling on the part of the cartoonist that if he portrays her as too dark it will be considered racist, so he portrayed her as too white so, the cartoonist is racist.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Okay, glad you thought it through! I don't share your view but I am particularly proud of my modesty instead!
Your modesty probably stems from you being of the best race - the least racist race!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th January 2019, 06:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I can imagine that the brouhaha about the depiction of Naomi Osaka came from the feeling on the part of the cartoonist that if he portrays her as too dark it will be considered racist, so he portrayed her as too white so, the cartoonist is racist.
This part is odd.

I get the impression that cartoonists "whitewash" her all the time.

She has a really nice blonde ponytail, I'm assuming that's by design, rather than by accident, and this probably makes things more confusing for the cartoonists.
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Old 27th January 2019, 07:04 PM   #29
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This, and only this, determines race. There is no white gene, although I'm starting to wonder about a stupid gene. Many genes contribute to skin color. Your socially learned ideas about people who look a little different is not attached to any of them. I can honestly say this is pretty high on the list of most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
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Old 27th January 2019, 07:46 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
This part is odd.

I get the impression that cartoonists "whitewash" her all the time.

She has a really nice blonde ponytail, I'm assuming that's by design, rather than by accident, and this probably makes things more confusing for the cartoonists.
I think this is the commercial that apparently caused "outcry" because Naomi Osaka was portrayed as caucasian. It doesn't seem to matter that everyone else in the ad, including Kei Nishikori, is also portrayed that way. Or maybe it does matter and aggravates the problem.

Who knows?

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Old 27th January 2019, 08:09 PM   #31
Apathia
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Japan has racism. Who doesnít? But, Japanís racism is more of the bewilderment at foreigners variety. The Japanese, bless them, donít understand sophisticated speech codes around race or ethnicity. This kind of thing is not a part of the everyday curriculum, as far as I am aware. The Japanese donít know it is racist to say that Japanese people ought to be able to speak Japanese (Naomi Osakaís Japanese ability is lower than mine and thatís saying something!). They donít know it is racist to depict foreign people with very large noses and blond wigs, or to complain about the smell of foreign food, or to say that foreigners are okay but they wouldnít want one living next door because they donít know how to put the rubbish out. They donít know that it is racist to whitewash their own manga, and many were surprised to hear it was racist for Scarlett Johansson to play the lead in Ghost in the Shell or that it was racist for a Japanese comedian to portray Eddie Murphy in Beverley Hills Cop by blacking up (I am sure they were wondering, ďbut how else am I going to pull off this impression?Ē).

I can imagine that the brouhaha about the depiction of Naomi Osaka came from the feeling on the part of the cartoonist that if he portrays her as too dark it will be considered racist, so he portrayed her as too white so, the cartoonist is racist.

Yup. Seen this sort of thing.
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Old 27th January 2019, 08:41 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I can imagine that the brouhaha about the depiction of Naomi Osaka came from the feeling on the part of the cartoonist that if he portrays her as too dark it will be considered racist, so he portrayed her as too white so, the cartoonist is racist.
I imagine that's probably right, but I can't read minds. But maybe he thought it would be safer to minimize her ethnic features rather than emphasize them. Also, a lot of people seem to think that characters drawn in manga/anime style look "caucasian" or "white" when in reality that's arguably just a characteristic of the style. I mean, Naruto has blond hair and blue eyes. That's one data point, but lots of anime characters (mostly they are either "Japanese" or live in some sort of fantasy world, but tend to have Japanese names) don't really look very Japanese.

I guess the point is that traditionally manga/anime illustrators haven't been particularly concerned with making their characters look "racially correct".
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:04 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Only the far left believe that whites and whites alone are racist.
The unfortunate thing is that you very likely believe this pile of stinking excrement you just posted...

Originally Posted by baron View Post
White people are, IMO, the least racist group on the planet, by a considerable margin.
...and this pile.

Let me give you some clues



And if you think they are in decline, think again. They might not have the membership numbers of their heyday, but their numbers are on the rise.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:07 AM   #34
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Why are they wearing burqas?
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:12 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why are they wearing burqas?

Nice.

I guess that will be because they are too cowardly to show their faces.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:15 AM   #36
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Isn't that assumption racist?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:40 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Isn't that assumption racist?
Non-sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated!

(or parse fail on my part)
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Old 28th January 2019, 04:01 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If you’re going to make a claim about who is the least racist and most open-minded then there are other candidate variables aside from melanin content in the skin to explain the discrepancy between a very non-racist society such as ... the UK when compared with a very hateful and bigoted society such as ... I dunno, I was thinking Pakistan, but I have never been there...
It isn't me who's making the distinction. The lines are already drawn between white and non-whites, I'm making the point that contrary to leftist opinion, the former are, on average, the least racist group.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
For the most part, I think that certain pre-requisites such as wealth and democratic traditions and philosophical contemplation are more likely to produce non-racist societies. The latter require the former. The closer you are to a “state of nature” in terms of available resources, wealth creation, superstition, zero-sum division of resources etc... the more likely you are to engage in racism all else being equal.
Possibly, I'm not making a claim to how these attitudes came about, I'm simply making a comment about the pre-defined groups.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
They seem to be necessary conditions, but not sufficient. There are also contingent historical facts and traditions that can lead to more or less racism.
There’s also plenty of racism, by the way, in many parts of Eastern Europe - Hungary, Poland, Serbia (!), Croatia (!), Ukraine. And there are some pretty virulent strains of racism in France (Front Nationale anyone?) and Sweden (sterilization of impure ethnicities which ended like last Tuesday or something almost as eyebrow-raising!). Oh, and if we think of Germany as one of the bastions of enlightenment values and maybe the least anti-Semitic countries in the world (a big if), it isn’t without a few blemishes along the way - more likely a result of some blemishes, no?
Of course, specific examples, and historic ones, buck the trend. I'm just talking generically. We are forever told by the left that white people are the most racist, the most bigoted, the least tolerant, when the opposite is the case.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, Japan has racism. Who doesn’t? But, Japan’s racism is more of the bewilderment at foreigners variety. The Japanese, bless them, don’t understand sophisticated speech codes around race or ethnicity. This kind of thing is not a part of the everyday curriculum, as far as I am aware. The Japanese don’t know it is racist to say that Japanese people ought to be able to speak Japanese (Naomi Osaka’s Japanese ability is lower than mine and that’s saying something!). They don’t know it is racist to depict foreign people with very large noses and blond wigs, or to complain about the smell of foreign food, or to say that foreigners are okay but they wouldn’t want one living next door because they don’t know how to put the rubbish out. They don’t know that it is racist to whitewash their own manga, and many were surprised to hear it was racist for Scarlett Johansson to play the lead in Ghost in the Shell or that it was racist for a Japanese comedian to portray Eddie Murphy in Beverley Hills Cop by blacking up (I am sure they were wondering, “but how else am I going to pull off this impression?”).
I don't see any of those things as racist, I'm referring more to the idea that it's very difficult for a non-Japanese to be fully accepted into Japanese society. I must add at this point that I've never been there, so your experience obviously trumps mine, but this is what I've read and heard direct a couple of people who have worked and lived there. (I have worked for Tokyo companies for about six years now but that's remotely so I can't pretend to have gained much insight from that, aside from their efficiency and extreme politeness). Perhaps more pertinently, I'm talking about the attitude to different cultures and behaviours, and that's why I mentioned Japan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I get is that it's difficult or impossible to ever be completely accepted as a foreigner even if you embrace every aspect of Japanese society, language and culture. If you rock up and behave the same as you did in your own country you will be quickly excluded and isolated (even if you're not told as much to your face). This is not a criticism, however, rather a comparison of Japan with European countries.
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Old 28th January 2019, 04:02 AM   #39
baron
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Let me give you some clues

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...24%2C_1948.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...C._in_1928.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...do%2C_1921.jpg

And if you think they are in decline, think again. They might not have the membership numbers of their heyday, but their numbers are on the rise.
Tragic.
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Old 28th January 2019, 04:15 AM   #40
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm referring more to the idea that it's very difficult for a non-Japanese to be fully accepted into Japanese society.
That's rubbish.

Our rugby players do it frequently, so much so, that they forego playing for NZ teams and become Japanese Citizens, and end up playing for The Brave Blossoms (The Japanese National Rugby team).
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