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Old 28th January 2019, 04:21 AM   #41
Porpoise of Life
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That's rubbish.

Our rugby players do it frequently, so much so, that they forego playing for NZ teams and become Japanese Citizens, and end up playing for The Brave Blossoms (The Japanese National Rugby team).
Well, I think "Playing rugby well enough to be able to play for a national team" might be considered 'difficult'...
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Old 28th January 2019, 04:24 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That's rubbish.

Our rugby players do it frequently, so much so, that they forego playing for NZ teams and become Japanese Citizens, and end up playing for The Brave Blossoms (The Japanese National Rugby team).
Your posts have nose-dived into the deep end recently. Terrible.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:18 AM   #43
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Depends what you mean by "fully accepted" in Japanese society. I've been living in Japan for almost 20 years now and I've raised two kids here, both of whom are "hafu". I am reasonably well "accepted" here. I will never be Japanese myself, as I didn't grow up here and have no Japanese blood. I also haven't taken Japanese citizenship although I could theoretically. I don't want to give up my American citizenship. My kids on the other hand have every right to consider themselves Japanese. They don't seem to have any particular trouble making Japanese friends and if they were ever teased at school for being different, I never heard about it. I am at peace with it I guess. It is what it is. I can do all the things I need to do to live a life here, but it does help to have friendly Japanese in-laws for some things.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Depends what you mean by "fully accepted" in Japanese society. I've been living in Japan for almost 20 years now and I've raised two kids here, both of whom are "hafu". I am reasonably well "accepted" here.
That's good, but where's the bar? If an immigrant is 'reasonably well accepted' in the UK then that would be more likely seen as an indictment of society than a point of acclaim. The question would be, Why are they not fully accepted from day one? You've lived there 20 years and you're still only 'reasonably well accepted'. That's the point I was making.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:35 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So you've encountered extraordinarily stupid leftists? Here's a suggestion: Don't try to follow their logic because that is not what guides them.
Or more likely, extraordinarily stupid right wing people who say that left wing people think that...
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:37 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's good, but where's the bar? If an immigrant is 'reasonably well accepted' in the UK then that would be more likely seen as an indictment of society than a point of acclaim. The question would be, Why are they not fully accepted from day one? You've lived there 20 years and you're still only 'reasonably well accepted'. That's the point I was making.
What specifically do you mean? Should they throw a parade in my honor?
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:48 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
What specifically do you mean? Should they throw a parade in my honor?
How would I know? You said it. You said you were 'reasonable well accepted' after 20 years. If you asked me how accepted I am in my community I'd say fully accepted, no problems. You're the one who equivocated and now you're asking me to explain your statement. That's odd.
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:13 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene',
Isn't that a form of racism in itself?
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:18 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
How would I know? You said it. You said you were 'reasonable well accepted' after 20 years. If you asked me how accepted I am in my community I'd say fully accepted, no problems. You're the one who equivocated and now you're asking me to explain your statement. That's odd.
I guess I just don't know what signs to look for that you are "fully accepted" but that's OK. Nobody presents you with a plaque saying "You Are Hereby Fully Accepted In Our Society". Also, I'm a bit of a loner by nature. I don't really want to be out chatting with other people most of the time. There are some Japanese people (most are 100% fully Japanese in every definition of the word) who are afraid to go outside. They call them hikikomori. It's like a kind of social anxiety. I wonder if they feel "fully accepted" even in their own society. But I work for a Japanese company and I commute to work every week day and I've almost never encountered overt hostility. I'm sure that I'm "fully accepted" at my company. But it's hard to really know. I imagine that there are some places in Japan where I would not be welcome, but I must imagine that there are places in the UK that don't care much for foreigners or "outsiders" coming in.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:25 AM   #50
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Seriously is "Japan is an extremely homogeneous society" and "The Japanese can be xenophobic dicks sometimes" really blowing anyone's mind? Is this really new information?
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:52 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
People are saying, are they?

You want to discuss the obvious and well-known racism, xenophobia, and jingoistic nationalism in Asia? Or you want this as a gotcha to your imaginary friends?

Angrysoba's already opined on the topic of Japan. I can cover a whole other large part of Asia. Chinese are notoriously racist. The Thais, ditto. Singapore and Malaysia split apart from the Malay Federation because of race. Indonesia seems to rotate which minority they're going to pick on and Myanmar is the current global poster boy for genocide.

So what are those some people saying? Who are they and where do they get their information other than Mama's Basement Theory of Internet Sociology Volume I?
Hell white supremacists hold Japan up as an example of how they want their ethnostate version of the US to work.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Depends what you mean by "fully accepted" in Japanese society. I've been living in Japan for almost 20 years now and I've raised two kids here, both of whom are "hafu". I am reasonably well "accepted" here. I will never be Japanese myself, as I didn't grow up here and have no Japanese blood. I also haven't taken Japanese citizenship although I could theoretically. I don't want to give up my American citizenship. My kids on the other hand have every right to consider themselves Japanese. They don't seem to have any particular trouble making Japanese friends and if they were ever teased at school for being different, I never heard about it. I am at peace with it I guess. It is what it is. I can do all the things I need to do to live a life here, but it does help to have friendly Japanese in-laws for some things.
Are they citizens and given names from the list of proper Japanese names that keeps the 3rd generation Koreans in japan out of citizenship?

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/n...-in-limbo.html

"After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner."

So your kids are likely blocked from certain career paths. Unless that has changed lately.
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Old 28th January 2019, 08:02 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I guess I just don't know what signs to look for that you are "fully accepted" but that's OK. Nobody presents you with a plaque saying "You Are Hereby Fully Accepted In Our Society". Also, I'm a bit of a loner by nature. I don't really want to be out chatting with other people most of the time. There are some Japanese people (most are 100% fully Japanese in every definition of the word) who are afraid to go outside. They call them hikikomori. It's like a kind of social anxiety. I wonder if they feel "fully accepted" even in their own society. But I work for a Japanese company and I commute to work every week day and I've almost never encountered overt hostility. I'm sure that I'm "fully accepted" at my company. But it's hard to really know. I imagine that there are some places in Japan where I would not be welcome, but I must imagine that there are places in the UK that don't care much for foreigners or "outsiders" coming in.
Then there is the fear of while being fully japanese that someone might find out your grandfather was a butcher.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34615972

"In the corner of a pristine room tucked away in Tokyo's Shibaura meat market is a table topped with a stack of crudely composed hate mail - evidence of a prejudice that dates back to medieval times.

Slaughtermen, undertakers, those working with leather and in other "unclean" professions such as sanitation have long been marginalised in Japan. That prejudice continues to this day and especially for those working in the Shibaura abattoir.

Never mind that the men here are dicing up some of the most expensive and highly prized animals on the planet. This is where Japan's world famous wagyu beef is prepared - prime steaks, shot through with ribbons of fat, that can set you back eye-watering prices."
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Old 28th January 2019, 08:21 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Are they citizens and given names from the list of proper Japanese names that keeps the 3rd generation Koreans in japan out of citizenship?

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/n...-in-limbo.html

"After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner."

So your kids are likely blocked from certain career paths. Unless that has changed lately.
No, I don't think you fully understand. My kids are in fact Japanese citizens.

Chung, for whatever reason, has chosen not to take citizenship.

Note this sentence:
Quote:
Japan has softened its attitudes toward the Zainichi, and many have become citizens and taken Japanese names. Others have taken citizenship, but kept their Korean names. Others, like Chung, have taken neither citizenship nor name. Disagreements exist, even within families.
She is legally entitled to take Japanese citizenship, but like me, she does not.
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Old 28th January 2019, 08:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then there is the fear of while being fully japanese that someone might find out your grandfather was a butcher.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34615972
Yeah, and Britain has "Travellers" (aka "Pikeys").
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Old 28th January 2019, 10:58 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I guess I just don't know what signs to look for that you are "fully accepted" but that's OK.
I was just querying why you were so equivocal. It's not a response I would make unless I wanted to express a degree of dissatisfaction. And whilst I know you mentioned parades facetiously, we did have a parade of sorts near here to welcome a dozen or so Syrian families to the area.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Nobody presents you with a plaque saying "You Are Hereby Fully Accepted In Our Society". Also, I'm a bit of a loner by nature. I don't really want to be out chatting with other people most of the time. There are some Japanese people (most are 100% fully Japanese in every definition of the word) who are afraid to go outside. They call them hikikomori. It's like a kind of social anxiety. I wonder if they feel "fully accepted" even in their own society. But I work for a Japanese company and I commute to work every week day and I've almost never encountered overt hostility. I'm sure that I'm "fully accepted" at my company. But it's hard to really know.
OK, I find that strange but that's your assessment. To re-iterate, I'm not criticising the Japanese - at all (if I was forced to leave the UK Tokyo would be in my top ten preferred destinations, regardless of whether or not I'd always be the outsider) - I was simply stating that on balance white Western countries are the most accommodating and least racist / xenophobic in the world.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:09 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Your posts have nose-dived into the deep end recently. Terrible.
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Old 28th January 2019, 02:46 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by baron View Post

[snip]

I was simply stating that on balance white Western countries are the most accommodating and least racist / xenophobic in the world.
Hmm... not true. The manifestation, application, intensity, legality, visibility, and nature of racism differ significantly in each different country (and society) in complex ways. Yes, there are certain forms of racism that are less evident in some, or even many Western countries versus non-Western countries. But the reverse is true of other forms of racism and there is no reason to start patting myself on the back for how advanced my country is. Better in some ways; worse in others. We all need a lot of work!

But beyond this, it is the highlight where I think your post most egregiously fails big time and only negates the very statement in which it is embedded.

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Old 28th January 2019, 02:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't see any of those things as racist, I'm referring more to the idea that it's very difficult for a non-Japanese to be fully accepted into Japanese society. I must add at this point that I've never been there, so your experience obviously trumps mine, but this is what I've read and heard direct a couple of people who have worked and lived there. (I have worked for Tokyo companies for about six years now but that's remotely so I can't pretend to have gained much insight from that, aside from their efficiency and extreme politeness). Perhaps more pertinently, I'm talking about the attitude to different cultures and behaviours, and that's why I mentioned Japan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I get is that it's difficult or impossible to ever be completely accepted as a foreigner even if you embrace every aspect of Japanese society, language and culture. If you rock up and behave the same as you did in your own country you will be quickly excluded and isolated (even if you're not told as much to your face). This is not a criticism, however, rather a comparison of Japan with European countries.

And "Gaijin" (outside person) covers more ground than Caucasians, Chinese, and Koreans. I met Japanese Americans (born in the USA) who have lived in Japan for years and still aren't regarded as insiders. And yet again I know a Caucasian woman who married into a Japanese mob (Yamaguchi Yakuza) who gets more respect than I thought possible.

I was happy to be a White Gaijin in the years that I lived in Japan. Being an insider brings picayune social expectations that take a lifetime to learn. As a Gaijin, even though hearts were closed to me, I was given a lot of slack and forgiveness for my ineptitudes. How racist!
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:05 PM   #60
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Being considered an "outsider" isn't always simple racism. Isn't it difficult for even "white" immigrants and visitors to become assimilated into certain "white" Western cultures such as in Norway? I've also heard similar things about Switzerland. Hey, it took me 25 years to be fully adopted by the locals as a "true" citizen of my small USA college town.

Unfortunately it is true that many people of all kinds can be racist jerks. How this manifests differs in different cultures and different countries. Mapping it onto the prevailing "race" in each culture? A major fail.
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:09 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I was simply stating that on balance white Western countries are the most accommodating and least racist / xenophobic in the world.
"On balance" needs a metric to avoid being anything other than an opinion you pulled out of your butt.
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"On balance" needs a metric to avoid being anything other than an opinion you pulled out of your butt.
Human rights. The first thing I said. Would you like me to Google it for you or would you prefer to pull something out of your own butt?
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Being considered an "outsider" isn't always simple racism. Isn't it difficult for even "white" immigrants and visitors to become assimilated into certain "white" Western cultures such as in Norway? I've also heard similar things about Switzerland. Hey, it took me 25 years to be fully adopted by the locals as a "true" citizen of my small USA college town.
Yep. Just try being a Tennessean moving to Maine or vice versa.

I moved from another region of the state to Nashville over 30 years ago and am still not considered a true resident of the city by some of my acquaintances. My accent is wrong.
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Old 29th January 2019, 10:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene', I wonder how they can explain this since it involves a mixture of the 'peoples of color'.






https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/tennis/the-explosive-racial-question-osaka-asked-japan/ar-BBSM69Q?li=AAgfLCP
I've heard that only white people can be racist but I have never heard someone say that this trait is linked to the 'white gene'
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Old 29th January 2019, 11:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I've heard that only white people can be racist but I have never heard someone say that this trait is linked to the 'white gene'
White jeans were popular in the 90s where I lived. I heard they're making a comeback, could that be what MAGA means? Restoration of pre-grunge 90s fashions? They still make K-Swiss shoes! We can do this!
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Only the far left believe that whites and whites alone are racist. White people are, IMO, the least racist group on the planet, by a considerable margin.
...so which race do you think is the most racist?
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:50 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Any documentation for those ideas?
That White people are the least racist people on the planet? It's pretty obvious if you look around. f White people were racist, why do so many non-Whites want to live among us? Hordes of Africans are desperate to get into Europe while Central Americans and Mexicans riot at the border trying to get into the United States. If they experienced endless microaggressions and were marginalized by a society steeped in institutionalized and systemic racism, wouldn't they go home? Or at least warn their families not to join them?

Either White people aren't racist or the opportunity to serve the White man by doing the jobs we won't do and paying the pensions for our aging population is enough of an incentive for PoC to overlook any bigotry and prejudice and discrimination they might suffer.
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:51 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
...so which race do you think is the most racist?
Do you mean which group?
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:53 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That White people are the least racist people on the planet? It's pretty obvious if you look around. f White people were racist, why do so many non-Whites want to live among us? Hordes of Africans are desperate to get into Europe while Central Americans and Mexicans riot at the border trying to get into the United States. If they experienced endless microaggressions and were marginalized by a society steeped in institutionalized and systemic racism, wouldn't they go home? Or at least warn their families not to join them?

Either White people aren't racist or the opportunity to serve the White man by doing the jobs we won't do and paying the pensions for our aging population is enough of an incentive for PoC to overlook any bigotry and prejudice and discrimination they might suffer.

Because American culture is NOT the same thing as 'white culture'. Whites are one part of American culture, which other peoples have just as much claim to.

Racism and racial divisions are, unsurprisingly, astonishingly moronic ways to divide cultures.
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:54 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do you mean which group?
You used them interchangeably, so sure.
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:05 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You used them interchangeably, so sure.
Do I really. You know what I'm going to ask now. Just one post, in your own time.
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Only the far left believe that whites and whites alone are racist. White people are, IMO, the least racist group on the planet, by a considerable margin.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do I really. You know what I'm going to ask now. Just one post, in your own time.
Here. You used them to mean the same thing. The group is a racial group.

So what race do you think is the most racist if whites are the least?
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:27 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Here. You used them to mean the same thing. The group is a racial group.
A group is a group, not a race. If I had meant race I would have written 'race'. I made a clear distinction and went on to explain how I had not defined the groups 'white' and 'non-white', those groups had been specified for me.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So what race do you think is the most racist if whites are the least?
Do you mean what group?
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:32 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
A group is a group, not a race. If I had meant race I would have written 'race'. I made a clear distinction and went on to explain how I had not defined the groups 'white' and 'non-white', those groups had been specified for me.



Do you mean what group?

Yeah, I know what you said, and I'm pointing out how silly it is. You explaining how it was even more silly than that doesn't actually detract from my point.

You decide to divide into the groups 'white' and 'non-white', which makes your original assertion even more pointless.

So what racial group is most racist to you? You've said it can't be 'whites', so I'm left assuming you mean 'non-whites are the most racist group on the planet'.

You really do mean to say that non-whites are the most racist group on the planet, correct? I mean, you say you've thought this through, and that's what your words mean by necessity, so you do intend to communicate that?
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:42 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, I know what you said, and I'm pointing out how silly it is. You explaining how it was even more silly than that doesn't actually detract from my point.

You decide to divide into the groups 'white' and 'non-white', which makes your original assertion even more pointless.
I've explained three times now that I made no such division. The far left makes that distinction. not me, and routinely talks in terms of whites and non-whites. We are told about the racism of whites and the victim status of non-whites. I am using their terminology.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So what racial group is most racist to you? You've said it can't be 'whites', so I'm left assuming you mean 'non-whites are the most racist group on the planet'.

You really do mean to say that non-whites are the most racist group on the planet, correct? I mean, you say you've thought this through, and that's what your words mean by necessity, so you do intend to communicate that?
Let's talk this through. We have two groups, white and non-white. I maintain that whites are the least racist group, and you are asking me what is the most racist group? Are you kidding me?
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Old 29th January 2019, 01:49 PM   #76
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What's even being argued here?

Which of following two statements is incorrect?

1. On an individual level prejudice by one person against another person for any manner of reasons, including racial, can absolutely be a thing and to suggest otherwise is insane. To claim individual members of a particular group are incapable of prejudice or racism is laughable.

2. When a dominant group (even if the grouping is arbitrary or pointless) in a society has a tipping point, which isn't an exact science by any means, of members who discriminate against another group that form of racism can be particularly dangerous and hard to combat because of the size and influence of the groups in questions.

Both of those are true and neither of them contradict each other. What's the mystery?

Other than the annoying habit of "Woke" people to use "Racism" when they mean "Institutional Racism" (or similar) which... yeah I wish they wouldn't do that but whatever... what's up for debate?
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:20 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What's even being argued here?

Which of following two statements is incorrect?

1. On an individual level prejudice by one person against another person for any manner of reasons, including racial, can absolutely be a thing and to suggest otherwise is insane. To claim individual members of a particular group are incapable of prejudice or racism is laughable.

2. When a dominant group (even if the grouping is arbitrary or pointless) in a society has a tipping point, which isn't an exact science by any means, of members who discriminate against another group that form of racism can be particularly dangerous and hard to combat because of the size and influence of the groups in questions.

Both of those are true and neither of them contradict each other. What's the mystery?

Other than the annoying habit of "Woke" people to use "Racism" when they mean "Institutional Racism" (or similar) which... yeah I wish they wouldn't do that but whatever... what's up for debate?
The argument between baron and I revolves mostly along the lines of him using the existence and discussion of 2 to pretend that means excluding 1.

I too am against the 'power plus' definitions, but I don't pretend that talking about racism in the context of the US or western history where the racism of white people has and continues to have by far the largest impact is the same as the 'power plus' thing, and certainly isn't pretending that it's all about 'whites are the only racists'.

I also can't help but laugh at the 'the left is wrong for using these invalid divisions but also non-whites are worse' reasoning. Even if I agree that the 'power plus' definitions are unhelpful (to use understatement as I think they are actively harmful), and that some on the far left do pretend racism is only a 'white problem', that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with such laughable reasoning as 'non-whites are the real racists'.

As long as everyone else sees the problem with baron's reasoning, as no matter how he protests that is indeed inescapable in the reasoning he laid out, I'm fine leaving it be.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:31 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Seriously is "Japan is an extremely homogeneous society" and "The Japanese can be xenophobic dicks sometimes" really blowing anyone's mind? Is this really new information?
From 1931 to 1945 the Japanese were worse then Xenophobic Dicks;They went into full blown "Master Race" mode and tried to conquer and rule the inferior races, and eventually formed a partnership with Nazi Germany which was in the same mode. Of course, if the Axis had won the war, conflict between the Germans and their "Honorary Aryan" buddies would have been inevitable.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The argument between baron and I revolves mostly along the lines of him using the existence and discussion of 2 to pretend that means excluding 1.
I didn't know we'd had an argument, I've only restated what I originally posted. If you dispute the original groupings that's fine, I see them as moot at best, but my assertion is based on the premise that they exist. That being so, the 'white' group is on average less racist than the 'non-white' group, despite what we are told by the left, and that is supported by significant bodies of evidence.
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Old 29th January 2019, 02:36 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
From 1931 to 1945 the Japanese were worse then Xenophobic Dicks;They went into full blown "Master Race" mode and tried to conquer and rule the inferior races, and eventually formed a partnership with Nazi Germany which was in the same mode. Of course, if the Axis had won the war, conflict between the Germans and their "Honorary Aryan" buddies would have been inevitable.
"Japanese form alliance with Genocidal White Supremacists Death Empire in completely well thought out scheme that has zero chance to backfire" - The Onion: Our Crazy Century headline from WW2.

Alright in all fairness I have in the past raised an eyebrow over how, let's be 100% honest here, white guilt has caused us to give Imperial Japan more of a "We just won't bring it up if you won't" pass over say Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia when.. not exactly any better guys. Unit 731 did stuff that would have made Menegele "Oy mate tone it down a notch will ya?" and yeah Imperial Japan had some pretty... icky ideas about racial purity.
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